jeffjerwin

It's also interesting that Argrath's rivals for rulership of Sartar might have even included Telmori. I do think the Helkos Brothers were wolf runners and descendants of Sartar - it's explicit in the Red Cow campaign, after all. The Sartar descendants seem to have been wiped out during the assassination of Temertain, but how could Argrath be sure? Best to kill them all, before a pretender appeared...

One caveat to Joerg's commentary above: Broyan certainly does become High King as the last Vingkotling - the High Kingship of the Heortlings even shares the same title: High King. And of course Bad King Rastagar did summon all the tribes, like the Heortling kings could do later. So until Broyan was slain, Argrath was his inferior. But Argrath has no interest in being another Vingkotling or Hendriki; Broyan's death proved they were bound by too many oaths.

There is of course another reason that Argrath couldn't allow the Telmori to persist: Rufelza as the Moon has taken over Wild-day and was also in a sense Rashoran[a] - they, in the end, could not be trusted.

We know from the "Eleven Lights" that the Cinsina were (canonically) in Argrath's camp...

This is rough, because I know from the backstory of my own campaign that the PCs will have witnessed the heroics of the Telmori bodyguards in Kethaela defending the last survivors of the House of the Sartar, and fought for Broyan and Kallyr. At some point the moral crux comes: join with the man who displaced and perhaps arranged for the deaths of your kin, or sit the Hero Wars out?

Argrath's kingship, also, is a different sort of kingship, new, imperial, matching the Lunars rather than hearkening to Vingkotling/Orlanth Rex archetypes - that is, Broyan.

Does Argrath sacrifice Orlanth and Ernalda themselves against the Moon? I suspect so.

43 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

And wouldn't the original Pol Joni simply have brought the cult of the Orlanthi horse god with them from Sartar?

I agree, this seems likely. In fact, Elmal would still serve a very useful purpose for the Pol Joni, as they are a mounted not an infantry force...

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Given that there are about 42 Yelmalions in the Tribe, I’d say none or as many as you like. Given that Yelmalio in the Wastes was effectively formed from a splinter of the sky gazer spirit society who knew him as Sun Daughter. When the Sun Domers arrived  it was a only a short step to realise they were the same. Polestar is the dominant spirit of that society and so I don’t think between Him and the knowledge of Sun daughter there is any storm equivalent. It does however make me wonder if the Orlanthi identify Ourania (IIRC) with Elmal. 

I thought Ourania was associated with Yelorna...? 

10 hours ago, g33k said:

ermmmm.... Sorry, I don't know my Elurae well enough!   Are you referring to RW/Earthly Black / Blue / White foxes?  Those are all variants of the Red or Arctic fox; and are just a few of the dozen or so species of fox in the world, with another dozen or more speices of "fox-like" canids with a "fox" common name.

Does the canon include Eleura of Black / Blue / White (as well as Red) colors?

No, I'm referring to the foxes mentioned in Gloranthan sources rather than the Elurae. However it seems likely that some sort of common entity spawned both the beast men and the animals.

8 minutes ago, g33k said:

 

Rather than a free choice of any Elemental Rune, or locked-in to a single one, how about choosing from a limited subset, as Earth or Fire but no other (add or swap for another as suits Your Glorantha, but staying to the limited subset).

I'm intrigued by some sort of Yelmic/Illusion combo, as it would seem to provide an interesting counterpoint to the whole Lunar Illusion thing...

 

Well, there are also Black, Blue, and White Foxes - the latter associated with Inora - in Glorantha, so perhaps fox-mother got around?

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

According to CHDP Kallyr has the support of the Telmori, even though she probably had been among those from the Kheldon who fought against them in 1607. Minaryth Blue mentions Argrath's quarrel with the Telmori in the same year that Argrath married the FHQ and Minaryth Blue (and possibly Argrath) fought and killed Dinacoli.

 

Yes, and isn't it interesting that there's a person missing from the list of Kallyr's ring...? (see: http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/kallyr/complist.cfm). The picture in the Glorantha Sourcebook (p.42) makes it clear that Jar-Eel manifested at the moment the web of AS was spun, which is also where Eurmal let go of the net/web (his final act of treachery). The picture shows someone in a hare costume letting go (thus giving the mythic gap that the Lunar heroine could exploit) before Kallyr flees. I think Elusu "high Trickster priest", one of Argrath's oldest companions, was the culprit. This of course doomed Kallyr. (This is just my Argrath the Villain theory, by the by...)

I think Argrath created his various genealogies synthetically by hero questing. But the Telmori could smell him correctly, and they had to be disposed of. This also served the purpose of drawing many tribes onto Argrath's side. The later Wolfrunners/Wolfskins might have stolen the skins of the dead Telmori wolf-brothers and were shown by Argrath how to dominate their spirits - kinda like Harrek, as it happens.

Argrath of course knew that to tear down the Moon he had to fuse the Heortlings and the Kethaelans and the Praxians into a single force. This required deception, treachery and real-politick along with heroism and diplomacy.

Joerg commented that the Wolfrunners were somehow created out of the Telmori through Argrath's intervention in the Bithos discussion.

I always understood it that the Telmori were massacred and their wolf-skins decorated one of Argrath's hero bands (which suggests at its root a betrayal, since Sartar's promise was to end the Telmori curse, not end the Telmori).

This action by Argrath or his allies has always sat uneasily with me, though it may come from hero forming Arkat, who was the foe of the Telmori (Arkat is the archetypical imposter, after all). I have harbored some doubts that Argrath's genealogy and claim to the throne are fully legitimate, and part of me suspects that Argrath had to kill the Telmori because they were the royal bodyguard. This also fits with Jane Williams' apprehension that Kallyr's death was somehow suspect as well.

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, the Vadeli have books I think. 

Distinguishing between books that lie, books that contain useful knowledge, and those that are in between in a difficult business that has taken a fair bit of Malkioni history. There are a number of methods, but you are always torn between a too liberal policy meaning some books will be in error, and a conservative policy meaning you will reject something important, 

and There is always the question of how to interpret a book. Literally, metaphorically, magically, cryptically. I think they do use methods like Geomatria for example,  it not consistently. And there is deliberate use of obscure symbolism, steganography, etc to hide knowledge from the profane. It’s possible that sects may interpret books differently. Tomaris may be the Gloranthan Pythagoras, with the Rokari reading him only for his maths texts. 

This reminds me of bibliomancy, and the book and key magic of European folklore. I suspect the Abiding Book could be used the same way. See here: http://newenglandfolklore.blogspot.com/2012/08/fortune-telling-with-key.html

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Another potential source for this belief comes from Hykimi Ancestor Worship that may have been adapted to the beast warrior societies which even the Rokari did not dissolve, despite their blatantly Hsunchen origin. It might be a case of "Wolf Runners" changing from Telmori to the warband which claims to have exterminated the Telmori (one of the weirder things in the Argrath Saga, and one I don't quite think of as true), but more likely is a post- (and counter-) factual declaration of such.

I'd like to discuss this, but it's off topic. Can we start a new thread on the wolf runners? This is the first I've heard of this. I thought Argrath simply extirpated the Telmori.

5 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Hmm...based on their promiscuity, maybe Fertility?  Of course, they don't reproduce when mating with humans.  Which begs the question...are there Fox-men?

Doesn't look like it. No doubt - Trickster magic... In the case of the RW myth, many-tailed foxes are of course simply foxes, so they mate with ordinary foxes. But humans can have children with them as well. 

19 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Why do you think that Beastmen (even ones shared with Kralorela) necessarily need an element? It is easy to assign Sun/Fire to the centaurs and Storm to the minotaurs, swan maidens to Sea/Water and the manticores could take Darkness, but what would you do about satyrs, Earth?

None of the fire-stealers are particularly fiery, if you look at Eurmal or Raven.

I don't quite see Disorder for the fox ladies, either - mischief is part of all beast folk.

Just figured that since certain types of beast have Air (alynxes) or Earth (cattle) it might be useful for gaming purposes (in my case, it specifically is: the Elura(e) is being played - and every other character has at least one elemental affinity). The Elurae are called out as tricksters in the Sartar Companion (and before that in Tradetalk) so I suspect Disorder fits.

Satyrs and fauns are no doubt air/storm, as goat and deer creatures - viz. Ragnaglar and Velhara - the goat and deer deities. Also the use of wind instruments by satyrs.

Whether mischief is a part of all beast-folk or no - it seems to manifest differently with each of them. Beast certainly includes "wild".

As you point out, the fire-stealers aren't fiery, which, now that I think about it - makes sense - they wouldn't need to steal it otherwise. Raven has been posited as a Darkness creature. Foxes are nocturnal... and the other fire-stealer, Zorak Zoran, is also a Darkness entity. Hmmm.

Come, share your fox wisdom...

There is an Elurae in my game, living in the Troll Woods. But what are her runes? Beast, Disorder... what sort of element are foxes associated with?

I see that Inora has her own kind of foxes. They do seem to be the children of Eurmal as well.

Edit: The "Fox rite" is Fire Season, Illusion Week, Wild-day, which hints that the fox is red because of Eurmal the Fire-stealer. Fire? Though the fox is the least psychologically fiery of all creatures...

11 hours ago, Max_Writer said:

Question: owning handcuffs or shackles has come up in the game as some of the characters are bounty hunters.  One thing I can't find on any of the numerous equipment lists in various Old West games or online are a price for handcuffs or shackles.  I'm probably going to fake it at $5 though I have no idea.  Anyone know of any resources for the cost in 1875?  Or a rough estimate or guess?

Around 1900 they were going for $7.35. https://books.google.com/books?id=OHgh0mHgrWYC&pg=PA74&dq=shackles+prices+police&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSy-Gc2MfZAhXHLmMKHYsQDPQQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=shackles prices police&f=false

The value of a dollar in c.1900 was $27; in 1880, it was $22. I'd say $6-7 dollars is accurate.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

 

I don’t know how to interpret that, because it’s obvious that in RQ2 and RQ3 the cult was written up with a full complement of Rune spells. Quite practically useful ones, too. 

Yeah, I was misremembering. My fault for relying on my old brain rather than looking at the books...

Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder why Daka Fal gets divine magic in RQ... In the new RQ I'd be inclined to have it grant spirit magic and use rituals - trained Magic Skills - to do everything else that the older editions used rune or divine magic for; shamanic magic tends to be ritually intensive. DF and all the other ancestors are Great Spirits or Spirits, after all...

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I don't necessarily agree that Ancestor Worship is always shamanic in nature.

In Prax and among Trolls, it is, perhaps also amongst Pentians.

Dara Happan Yelmites who trace their ancestors back to Yelm or other Solar Deities don't worship in shamanic terms, I would see them as having an established Family Tree that they give worship to, or they worship individual ancestors or heroes. The Clan would provide the structure of the cult and together the Ancestral clan would provide magic.

Orlanthi have a very strong Clan background and identify with their Clan. It is not too great a stretch to have Orlanthi worshipping the Clan Ancestors as a whole, or as a collective, in a theistic way rather than shamanically.

 

Interesting take. Duke Raus' ancestor worship was represented as spirit magic in Borderlands, though that's long been superseded. KoDP treated spirit worship as identical to theistic worship. My sense is that ancestor cults have never been represented, however, in game, as providing rune-level magics - more the quotidian magics that are both practical and easier. In the real world, ancestor cults are clearly linked to family shrines, heirlooms, and graves, which all suggest that they should be treated as a wyter-like praxis.

I think Yelm's deed doesn't make a lot of sense unless it is Antirius, or it was one of the actions that took place as his soul plunged into the Underworld. She could hardly have turned to corruption before the first murder and the Darkness, unless this happened in a sort of awful moment (or God-time?). However, the reference seems to be to the healing power of sunlight versus infection, which is likely to be an aspect of heat and day rather than Lightfore...

38 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, those would be appropriate runes.  

Spirits will exist in the margins of Nochet.  Lots of temples and shrines to varied deities, particularly the Earth goddesses and their large families.  Serdrodosa is the Earth Witch - probably think of her having odd wise women, herbalists, and healers on the fringe of society.  She'll listen to the earth spirits that may exist in stones, broken buildings, odd groves or gardens, trees, etc.  The rats could be considered as messengers of news to and from various spirits.  So I'd keep her neutral.  But the serpents/beasts of Ernalda and the earth goddesses are likely hostile (or hungry), so you can have a certain tension where some earth spirits (particularly old ones buried deeper in Nochet) may be friendly, the wise women of Serdrodosa may be neutral, and those that aid the goddesses are hostile.

Spirits of light will be either aloof or hostile, though bird spirits (including geese) likely hostile (since rats may pillage nests).  Certain cults like Malia may try to use rats to spread disease (and rats will be seen as a sign of increasing disorder) - expect Chalana Arroy cultists to drive them away (though prohibited from killing them).  

Darkness spirits may be neutral, friendly, or foes (I'm sure the trollkin see the rats as food).  Probably a range of Beast spirits that fall across the spectrum from friendly to hostile.

Rats and mice also eat (vellum) books, which is why Lhankor Mhy temples tend to have cats/alynxes, I think.

56 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Have a more up to date look at Uralda in Heortling Mythology and Sartar KoH. To me she's actually Eiritha or more likely one of Eiritha's daughters (to the Praxians). Perhaps the Protectress of the Pol-joni is Uralda (in fact I'm almost certain of this). I'd have to bring @Jeff in on this for a clearer answer, but certainly the Esrolians think she's the Herd Mother (in the Gloranthan Source book).

Some of her myths are a retelling of Storm Bull & his sons.

It's seems likely that Eir-, Ur-, and thus Eir-itha, Ur-alda, Ur-ox all have some sort of Theyalan/God-time root word for cow/cattle (in the RW, no doubt connected to Auroch); hence their identities are all presumably intertwined. There is, of course, no major problem with variant fathers, though mothers is another issue.

8 hours ago, davecake said:

 

• I will continue to be disappointed that I can’t find a good place in Glorantha, both geographically and mythological it, for eucalypts. Suggestions welcome. 

Surely somewhere with a Fire Rune association...? Possibly also Chaos. They make my Sense Chaos tingle (i.e., my eyes burn and my nose runs - I've always seen Sense Chaos as very similar, being a "sort of allergic reaction").

What kind of elf are ferns?

(soft drumming)

I won’t eat you my sweet

I won’t eat you my morsel

Between the sun and us

Is Mother Night;

He won’t burn you my sweet

He won’t burn you my morsel

Between the hungry world

And you

Is me

They won’t eat you my sweet

They won’t eat you my morsel.

Earth Witch/Serdrodosa is a spirit cult from the Heortlings (and presumably Esrolia), who actually helps in finding treasure.

There are also trolls living in Nochet, are there not?

Could this be connected to the Serpentbeast Brotherhood that fought/expelled Yinkin? (BoHM)