jeffjerwin

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There's a lot of connections there that I don't think are proven (or guaranteed to be canon as I don't think Heortling Myths is considered wholly canon).  Orane/Orana is considered the divine ancestress of the Oranaeo.  And they were one of the groups resident in Nochet.  I've generally accepted that Durev is name/title for the humans that formed the Oranaeo.  

Yes, Norinel led some folk from Nochet to the Shadow Plateau to escape chaos.  Are some of those the progenitors of the Kitori?  I haven't seen anything that would confirm that, or provide any further link to the Oranaeo/Durevings.

It is possible, I'll grant, given the fact this is deep, distant history, and the Esrolian grandmothers are understood to have rewritten history in other contexts, that the connection between Norinel and Kimantor and the Kitori is fabricated to give the Kitori a matriline to an important Esrolian demigoddess and tribe. Given the importance of mothers to both Darkness and Earth cultures, this would create assumed ties of mythic kinship, which would be useful to the Esrolians (and perhaps also for the Kitori). But anything understood as true is as good as true for purposes of magic and ancestral worship.

2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Too long ago. I seriously doubt that a group of Yelmalions survived in Nochet that long.

Yes, you're right. However, the way the Grandmothers operate, their relationships with male gods tends to be told in the terms of nothing ever changes. Orlanth's and the Kodigvaris' supposed misdeeds are applied to every Orlanthi, whereas Palangio's every misdeed applies to every Yelmalion. So the relationship between the matriarchy and the Yelmalio temple might see all that dredged up whenever politically useful to the ruling women. The Yelmalions themselves, however, define themselves in terms of recent history and the Sun theological arguments (or their military history in the last generation) and would wonder why it keeps being mentioned...

10 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

No, the site was many tens of miles to the north west in Solthon Vale.

Sorry wires crossed: this is the battle of Vaantar (which does have a connexion to the Sun Dome, however): http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Vaantar

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Its name of Little Vanntar suggests a very close link with the relatively new Yelmalion statelet in Sartar.

Though Vanntar/Vaantar is also where Palangio et al. defeated the Uz and Heortlings in the Battle of Night and Day and hence the Sun Dome, whenever it was founded, was fixed by the exploits of Daysenerus as incarnated by the Iron Vrok. So that could also support the notion of a synthetic or even a continual link between the Bright Empire and the Nochet cult.

The Sundomers are obviously ideally placed to un-mother the Trolls on behalf of Tarkalor as reflections of Palangio and his phalanxes (cf. the barely hidden etymology of phalanx/-ges and p[h]alangio...). This suggests that the inner secrets of the Sun Dome in Vanntar include Daysenerus and... Nysalor. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

But basically, the Durevings are the traditional and original Orlanthi (demigods and mortals). The Vingkotlings are a later distinction for those of them who accept the rule of Vingkot's offspring (are blessed with it, or are forced to bear it like the Kodigvari who seem to have included indigenes from Kethaela who possibly never migrated northward to get there). But other than Vingkot's direct offspring, I don't see much of a Vingkotling ethnicity. Over the generations, descent from Vingkot spread out in those tribes, but quite likely also outside of those tribes if Orlanthi exogamy was practiced.

....

Are the Aramites and the Harandings Durevings? Quite likely, though not necessarily. The same goes for the original human Kitori (who I suspect to have been Esrolvuli who had fled to Akez Loradak following Norinel and Kimantor, though possibly an ethnic minority who had joined the Esrolvuli as the Darkness proceded).

 

One note: Orane is clearly the source of the Oraneo, who are the core group of the Durevings, and were inhabitants of Nochet... so either way, the Kitori are likely Durevings in origin.

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

A slight problem in that any Daysenerus cult in Nochet would have been ruthlessly destroyed along other Nysaloran institutions 

True enough. I wonder how that influenced later interactions with the cult... If Palangio's rule involved any temple building, that is.

The experience of the proto-Yelmalions under Palangio in Nochet might be connected to this cult...? Certainly he made an impression on Nochet and actually ruled the city for a while - the Xentha temple was destroyed at his orders, though the Grandmothers minimize his era in their histories. Thus the Yelmalio cult may descend from the Daysenerus cult directly. Just a possibility, anyway.

This is a map of the era of the Bight Empire:

I place the Creek Stream ford battle near Olorost; the site is somewhere below the confluence of the Creek and Stream, and Olorost guarded the ford that led to the Dragon Pass itself, which was the area of the Arkati-BE's battles in that decade.

Bonn Kanach appears on the map in the Guide, p.714, which may be an alternate name or a mistake for Bonn Karpach. Voss Varainu appears as Voss Varaina; these may be linguistic changes over the centuries and the other forms contemporary with the EWF. It is possible that the EWF altered the names of places to fit with Auld Wyrmish meanings.

Two-top, Ulaninstead, Brondagal, and Seriasdova are all Vingkotling hillforts. The Shadow Sacrifice cites tended by the Garanvuli and proto-Kitori are marked in blue. The Summer-Winter Owl trails I identify with the white tracings across the Storm Hills that link Old Wind, Last Cast, and the Verge to Sen Senrenen. We know that Hendrik used both the heights of the mountains and the Steal Woods south of the Print as refuges against Fendal Gbaji.

Maps in the guide suggest to me that the Garanvuli used slash and burn to clear the hills around Seriasdova/Ilisbervor for their needs; certainly there's a gap of about 10 miles around the settlement that has little forest cover. This would also have given the women and men posted on the walls of the fortress a fairly clear view of approaching enemies. However, Hendrik as a Hunter/Gavrening clansman would have been safer and more accustomed to the seclusion of the forests that rise beyond Finovan's Grove.

Hendrik to me suggests a Finn mac Cumhail-like figure, and his band is very reminiscent of the Fianna. I'm sure there are analogues in other cultures.

A couple more things: Darkness mysticism is plausibly linked to Darkness as the first elemental form; if the Draconic Egg/Universe emerged out of Darkness, suspended in Chaos, it might be said to be the child of the primeval Abyss.

Cragspider notably "enslaved" a True Dragon which is suggestive as well.

As to "My Travels in Hendrikiland" (HotHP) there are two observations I'd make about it. First, the author has only an imperfect understanding of the "krjalki" among the Hendriki. This is not surprising given Jrusteli biases. "We did not go there" is pretty telling regarding Sen Senrenen and the Kitor Wilds... It is also interesting that Derensev's links to Kerofinela are underscored in terms of their language, as Kerofinela was then under EWF domination; given this shared mode of communication - which is distinct it seems from Nochet's "philosophers" I think it likely that Derensev was an intellectual interface between the cities of the north and the Hendriki. Again, Heremel has only a superficial look at the inner activities of the Hendriki there.

---

Below is a map with the river corrected and the Lead Hills effaced. Looking at the map in the Guide (V.II, p.715) we see that a lower range of hills, covered in light forest, extended from the Destor Hills toward the river. The forest suggests agriculture was not intensive to me. However, the rich soil born of the beheading of Veskarthen's volcano would have been ideal for farming. I tentatively suggest Basalt for the Plateau and Gabbro in the fields below (I am not a geologist, mind you).

Note that Anjoralin[n]i is placed differently on different maps. Perhaps the settlement moved due to flooding? I have it at the confluence of the Creek-Stream and the Dreven, but the map I cite above places it near Blackwell.

[This is where the post Dragonkill armies of the Heortlings would have crossed the river to reach northern Esrolia, btw.]

The name Derensev is probably linked to 'Dreven' (*D[e]re[n]) and hence I speculate to Durev, the stead-man, who was carved from wood. I suspect the root word is connected to hardwood. At the Dawn the area was on the boundary of the Orgovaltes, the Koroltes, and the Garanvuli (and the Shadow Plateau) and probably involved a ford towards Akez Loradak.

I would therefore link the western Kitori to the Durevings, a subject people. The whole area between the Plateau and the Dragon's Eye is seemingly linked to the Durevings, who were the farmer caste among the Storm Tribe and were ruled by descendants of Vingkot.

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'm a bit disappointed that you didn't undo the topographical changes made by the death of the serpent which destroyed Akez Loradak and created the Lead Hills.

From the travelogue of the God Learner expedition to Hendrikiland, I get the impression that Zatan Lake (now in Kitori lands) was part of the core Hendriki lands, and not really troll-dominated.

I wonder why you chose to use Derensev as part of the urban territory. I suspect that Derensev was the Lhankor Mhy library of least use to the God Learners since they couldn't just copy the oral tradition kept there, and that may have been a deliberate decision by those priests.

The Hendriki survived the Slontan activities further south once again by decentralizing and refusing to offer cities which could easily be taken over. Their neutrality to the dragons may have been bought with the Kitori tribute to the Kingdom of Night.

I'll fix the river soonish and post along with the Hendrik-Harmast-Arkat map I'm working on right now.

Zatarn's people may have looked quite human to outsiders. Dekko, where I place a Kitori presence, however, is a deeply Darkness-rune connected location (and Zatarn is descended from the Styx...). Thus while Kitori lived around the Neutral Hills and Forthanland in perhaps greater numbers, the Kitori would have also clustered around the sacred sites. The Shadow Sacrifice sites (save one at the Syphon) are all located between Whitewall, the Fossil Forest and Zatarn, after all.

Derensev appears on the Second Age map in GS's Esrolia map as a major landmark. In my interpretation, it was a sacred site not just to the God of Knowledge, but to others, built on a tribal boundary. However it lies adjacent to Centaur Cross, suggesting that the city was bisected by the Cross Line and destroyed. The library may have been on the safe side of the line (or not...? if Scholar Wyrm can be connected to it). In any case Whitewall is called out as "ruins" in the Esrolian map (and was forbidden to the Hendriki would-be kings), and Derensev might serve to replace it. Either way there was some sort of control exerted over the remains of Ilisbervor.

I call on Chalana Arroy to resurrect this thread...

(Mainly so I can include another promised map)

This is my map of Hendrikiland during the Orlanthland period. I've marked the Orlanthland/EWF settlements. What this does show is that when one draws a ten mile radius around the Orlanthland cities (and the temple on Mt Quivin) - mostly post-Dawn and probably post-Bright Empire - and perhaps directly derived from Issaries trading posts on the rivers, the outline of the "benighted pagans" - the Old Traditionalists - are quite clear. It also shows why the Kitori salient existed in Forthanland and the Neutral Hills up till Tarkalor's War (c.1560): because those regions were beyond the hinterlands of the cities. The three northern Hendriki tribes, the Volsaxi, Sylangi, and Bacofi, are also discernible in their original stomping grounds: it's clear they retained their identity because of the absence of direct Orlanthland/EWF influence. The hollowing out of the core Garanvuli/Hendriki centre around Whitewall is also apparent, which is why the surviving tribes are all descended from clans that bordered the sacred centre rather than having a direct link to the Gavrenings (which are now (c.1610-25) a remnant of their former glory).

[Note: the Kitori of the Neutral Hills presumably had to withdraw into the chunk of their territory south of the Stone Cross, but it would not surprise me if their entry into the Forbidden Lands to reclaim their territory was even earlier than the Colymar as they had the direct support of the Uz around Blackwell.]

[Note 2: The Kitori presumably rejected Draconic mysticism as they had access to Darker secrets as well as the knowledge of Black Arkat. I wonder how Darkness secrets and Black Arkatism interface with Argrath's revival of Draconic magic in the mid-1620s...?]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Alexander was able to exploit the sophisticated Persian logistics infrastructure, effectively taking it over as he won battles and rolled into new territories. Even allowing for the usual exaggeration, in the first Persian invasion of Greece, the Persians had sent many tens of thousands (ancient sources claim up to two hundred thousand) into Greece, deploying an even larger force in their second invasion of Greece (claimed to be around half a million). Even if the claimed numbers are reduced by moving the decimal point, an army of twenty thousand or fifty thousand requires an elaborate system of supply, for the four essentials: food, fodder, firewood and water. Even if only most of the food and half the fodder was transported, that still requires a major system of depots, supply ships, and staging areas.

Alexander was fortunate that in many instances the local authorities rapidly submitted ahead of his line of march, and didn't burn the supplies held in the granaries and depots. If the Persian governmental system hadn't unraveled so quickly, he would have been in dire straits.

For Glorantha, something similar can be seen as the Lunar supply and staging center at Alda-Chur was captured by Argrath, and then Tarsh first went into civil war and then joined him, meaning that all the Lunar logistics system along the Oslir became vulnerable.

And isn't it interesting that Fazzur, father of Onjur and Anstad, Argrath's Lunar allies, is one of the better logistical planners in the Empire? That's the impression I always had from WF #12. His insistence on the importance of Nochet and Karse in Imperial strategy underscores this. He was "retired" in 1625 but his sons were already active on Argrath's side... The GS even implies Fazzur was advising Argrath (p.41).

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

For something boring (logistics) I've been attempting to define how much meat Praxian animals (and others) provide. Any comments?

	Living Weight (lbs.)	Edible Meat (lbs.)
Bison	1100-2000	615-1100
Bolo-Lizard	300-500	140-230
Herd Man	145	50-65
High Llama	1500-2000	400-600
Horse	900-1300	400-585
Impala	150-200	60-110
Ostrich	250-350	130-180
Ox	800-2000	488-1220
Pig	90-150	67-112
Sable	800-1000	400-500
Sheep	66-100	36-55
Tusker	900	400-495
Zebra	770-990	400-580

A tentative comment: total calories may be important as well: Tusker lard is probably going to go further than ostrich meat (which, if like chicken, has about 2/3rds the calories), even more than weight would indicate. Pork and beef have a similar number of calories; mutton has more calories than either (250 versus 200 than beef for 3 oz. of meat).

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

According to Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, the Tusk Riders themselves believe otherwise. ("Others say that our race was created by the Empire of Wyrms Friends and is a hybrid of humans and Uz. We know this is a lie; we were created from the vital fluids of the God of the Bloody Tusk, who said to us, “Life is simple. There are hunters and prey. You are the hunters.”")

Now, interestingly, but only tangentially related: Karastrand Halftroll (listed in The History of the Race of Trolls) is mentioned in the new Glorantha Sourcebook as leading the "giant boar-trolls of the ivory plinth, who formed the nobility of trolls north of the Stinking Forest." Now, regardless of their heritage, the aramites would hardly qualify as giant, even by human standards. Their position of nobility is also interesting.

The closest thing to nobility among trolls are the Hellmothers/matriarchs among the Uzko or the Uzuz, I think. Curious.

There is a statement I read (somewhere) that some of the troll-kind "devolved" into humans... (I might have dreamt it though).

When did Zorak Zoran manifest the third eye? Before or after Arkat initiated to the cult? I do think Arkat created eddies of change in the God-time with his actions - the Arkati resistance to God-learning-style alterations may have as much to do with retrospective guilt/responsibility as it does with protecting the "past".

The Black Arkati are called out specifically as connected to the Kitori. This lends some support to the idea that Arkat meddled with Zorak Zoran, which, note, displaces Zolan Zubar as a Kitori war-god.

We can theorize a bit about etymologies here: Zolan Zubar may contain a variant on Subere. L- and R- are very similar sounds, so Zolan and Zoran are near enough the same word. Zo[r]- or Sar- is perhaps a basic root word to Hell.

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

No - if he was indeed a disciple of the Only Old One, he could choose to appear as troll or dehori rather than as man. And if he wore the lead mask and the cloak of his office, it would be hard to tell which shape he wore, surrounded by the darkness of his incarnated deity.

Where do you get the "transforming himself into a woman" from?

 

Glorantha Sourcebook, p.130: "Varzor Kitor was taught the deepest secrets of the Darkness by the Only Old One, and in turn taught other humans how to pray, make sacri- fices, and learn the secrets of the Darkness. He fathered many sons, then became a woman and bore many daughters."

One could argue that Varzor Kitor was a mask/title like the Emperor's and therefore a later Varzor Kitor - mythically and magically the same as her predecessor - was a woman. But Darkness is a very mutable rune.

Tell me about Vamargic, Joerg...

In the end, the bear = Zolan Zubar notion I have derives from the name "bear paw" and the resemblance between trolls and bears; I simply imagined the Arkati managing to blend bear with troll as part of their meddling.

Essentially, my thesis is still possible: the connection to Lakrene/Dorastor is weaker. But the idea that Zolan Zubar was (originally) an ursine spirit does track with its association with wind and darkness. WE can't say for sure where Varzor Kitor emerged - it could be anywhere under the Second Council (including Sylila).

Varzor Kitor was selected as warlord to fight Shargash (Hellwind versus Fire Hatred.... blow the fire out?)

Zolan Zubar ‘Lord Demon of Death’, the Hellwind, was an ancient cave bear spirit connected to Sky Bear and Odayla. He is a spirit of the Cave Bear; the wind that howls out of the deep earth. Runes = Air Darkness Death.

reasoning:

Sky Bear is later tamed and ridden by the Red Goddess. The same entity seems to have been killed by Vingkot at Grizzly Peak. In Sylila/Talastar the paramount god and storm god was Sky Bear before the Unity Council/Lightbringers brought Heortling culture to southern Peloria.

It is of course possible that the Ur-rebel of the pre-Council Pelorian mythos, the killer of Yelm, was in fact Sky-bear, son of Umat. Darkness = the element brought to the surface by the bear, and Death = the murder of the sun. Thus the Red Goddess has already subdued and mastered one aspect of the killer of Yelm. It is interesting that the Kitori slew Broyan, because of this, and the enmity of Vingkot and Sky Bear.

Note there is no equation of Sky Bear here with Orlanth or Odayla. Still, the dead bear becomes a totemic spirit to the northern Vingkotlings, the Summer Tribes.

The Kitori resisted Gbaji and supported Arkat, much like the Hendriki. Varzor Kitor learned the secrets of Darkness from the Only Old One.

Varzor Kitor bore Ironbreaker as Warlord of the Second Council. Similarly, ‘[t]hey then appointed a warlord, a son of Gwalynkus who bore Ironbreaker, and declared war.’ [in 180] The early warlords (a mixture of species like Pavis; viz VK’s mixture of human and troll) were from Lakrene, and thus were of Sylilan/Talastari associated tribes – the Sky Bear peoples.

The proto-Kitori are thus likely a clan/tribe/band of bear-worshipping Orlanthi [not necessarily Heortlings], originally from near Dorastor, and perhaps were in fact Varzor Kitor’s hero-band. Zolan Zubar would have been their wyter. They found refuge in the Shadowlands after the Darkness peoples left the Council (prior to the 340s). If so, the weirdness of the Troll Woods as a Uz habitat may have much to do with the proto-Kitori connection to a forest/mountain/cave spirit.

This suggests that the absorption of Zolan Zubar by Zorak Zoran was an Arkati innovation, made to develop the Kitori into a weapon against the Light of Illumination. By merging Sky Bear into Zorak Zoran (or his prototype, Fear/Hell/Darkness) he would be even more effective against the Little Sun/Yelmalio/Palangio. Note the doubling of ZZ and Orlanth as opponents of Yelmalio at the Hill of Gold. Zolan Zubar as ‘bearpaw’ indeed still survives as a Kolating spirit - though not as a theistic source of magic.

It is my belief that trolls and bears, as can be seen below, have certain similarities...

Below: the skull of a dark troll (Trollpak); the skull of a cave bear (wikimedia)

It looks like Chaosium keeps entries up in their catalogue for recent titles but the buy option is only enabled if the warehouse has copies.

This has been probably been asked before but are there any plans for a reprint of Pavis: Gateway to Adventure? (I was not in a place to buy when it was available). The second-hand market median price is around $200. If a new printing is somewhere in the offing, I'm inclined to wait...

update on the dioramas my daughter I are building.

17 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Somehow, paternal descent became the norm of all Princes of Sartar up to and including Kallyr. Argrath is the first to claim maternal descent, and that through three generations. Kostajor's descendants had only one generation of female descent.

 

I find it interesting also that Onelisin's husband was named Jostharl. Very soon after her her three triplet daughters by Jostharl were born (1539), Kostajor was (1541). What happened to Jostharl? Did she divorce him? Did he die? Did she break her marriage vows (she is a Cat-witch, after all)?

Jostharl Dangmarsson is a name that appears as a king of the Colymar from the Arnoring clan, who apparently died in 1535, and was the father of Dangmet, who avenged his father's death fighting "the Lunars". They may be different men - the dates are a little off (though this could have come about by scribal error - 5 versus 9) - but it's worth noting that Argrath was himself of the Colymar tribe. It's not impossible that they are identical. Certainly it would explain how Minara's descendants ended up in the Starfire Ridges.

18 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Back on thread, I vaguely recall speculation elsewhere that the massacre of the werewolves might've also been motivated by the need to eliminate rival heirs on the Salinarg line, or even the possibility of pretenders on that side. Since Argrath's legal claim isn't exactly regular, that particular conspiracy theory always struck me as oddly viable . . . clear the wolves out of the "house" and consolidate power.

Yes, and perhaps not all the assassins Argrath faced at Boldhome - and not all the opposition - was rooted in pro-Lunar sympathies.

15 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is really a great line in a great thread. The community has spent a lot of time over the years pondering who the highland sun was before the Council, but maybe a little more clarity on "lowland storm" would be useful. Who got dragged into the Orlanth role and killed the emperor before the Pelorians recognized the Heortling culture radiating out of the south? Where are the children of "the historical Umath?"

I guess that last one is partially a trick question -- some God Learner thought it made sense to call the Manirian storm tribes deported to Pamaltela the "Umathelans," but I don't know if they were really wrong. "Lodrilela" may have been extant before the Mislari emerged and then the separated parts evolved separately into Everyman in the north and whatever weird Lodril survivals (volcano twins, lowfires, etc.) carry on in the south. But in the north whenever the mob of common men assert their rights, someone like "Umath" is there to lead monsters in revolt, threaten emperors, participate in highland rites, marry an earth goddess. Maybe there's a transitional stage where the Death of [Yelm] is overtly fratricide, struggle between the brothers. 
 

Surely Mount "Matu" in the Yolp Mountains is connected to all this. Of course, Mountains have as much to do with Earth (- Lodril's other element) - as they do with Air and Sky. And volcanos can "blot out the sun" with smoke...

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

So It does make me wonder if the Orlanthi identify Lightfore with Elmal. 

Well, Elmal is the fire that stayed burning above/on Kero Fin throughout the Darkness (which is already a bit different from the various Lightfores). He's identified with Antirius (and also called Anatyr in the old HW books): in The Fortunate Succession p.14, "Orlanatus bore Antirius as a Weapon, and bore Justice into heaven so that Lightfore overcame Vettebbe." So it's better to say he is one third of Lightfore from a Pelorian perspective.

However in the Sartar Companion, p.40: "Venebain is identified with the planet Lightfore." So the Orlanthi disagree. Elmal is presumably the Sun, not Lightfore, in their star maps. After all the Elmal versus Yelmalio debate was resolved by the "Many Suns" - not the "Many Stars" - vision.