jeffjerwin

I'm working on a scenario (someday, perhaps, for a Gloranthan Repository) called "The Woodwife's Lonely Cry" set in the Troll Woods. This is a regular photo because the paints still drying on my reference map - I added in some depth to the mountains with acrylics, as it was easier for a fogey like me than using GIMP or some-such. Edit: Maybe I'll paint the whole area at this scale for my game in mixed media. Give the ground some depth and contours; the woods some definition...

Were Trolls and Elves in Glorantha always intended to be as unique as they are? I got a sense from RQ2 (pre-Trollpak) and Wyrm's Footnotes that they were more generic fantasy creatures originally, or were seen that way; I mean the old "Dark Troll" comics, for example, and the Tolkienesque elf art - was it in the main rules? I was a player then, so I may be inferring based on what I knew then, but the full-on Plant People depiction of the elves didn't really emerge until RQ3, I think. I remember finding it surprising. Dwarves also changed in how they seemed to be portrayed, but they never played a major role in the games I played so it was less obvious to me. In any case, trolls living in woods doesn't seem odd at all to a person familiar to Northern European folklore. The inconsistency - or apparent inconsistency - was in Trollpak they were defined as truly omnivorous and hungry, which meant that forests were vast larders ready to be stripped of all fare - before Trollpak, Troll Woods and the Stinking Forest made more sense than not - trolls were imagined chiefly as monsters of the outer wilderness and underground, not as embodiments of hunger, ameliorated with intelligence. Edit: the Tolkienesque elf was in the RQ1 and RQ2 rules and I think drawn by Luise Perrine.

Though it also gives Dragon Pass that very old-school flavour... it's the one part of Glorantha that's well... kind of zany. Ducks, for instance (Keets hardly count). Every single Elder Race in close proximity. A cr*p-ton of dangerous ruins. Edit: ... and, of course, Dragon Pass wasn't even part of Glorantha originally. It was retrofitted in when GS noticed it "filled a gap".

I've long suspected that parts of Dragon Pass [and other parts of Glorantha, no doubt] are remnants of non-Gloranthan campaigns, or campaigns that veered out of GS canon when they were played. The Tusk Riders are basically orcs. The terrain around the Upland Marsh, Lismelder lands, Wintertop and the Grazelands is awfully similar to the central part of Arduin (there's even a "Howling Tower" there). I think it's been suspected that Carse/Karse and Refuge/Sanctuary are also interpolations from other worlds...

That's the route - Halikiv to Tarsh to the Stinking Forest to Dagori Inkarth that the Swarm took in 1623...

There is one other forest - or quasi-forest with both Aldryami and Trolls - The Vale of Flowers in Dagori Inkarth.

Was not Varzor a Heortling as well? After all, his descendants/adoptive descendants are Kitori and Orlanth-worshippers alongside the Troll Gods, and the name Kitori originally designated the humankind in the Unity Council (BoHM, p.128): "In the Darkness, we were all Kitori. The Kitori thrived in the Unity Council days. The term "Kitori" was used broadly in the Silver Age and in the Dawn Age. The Heortling king was often called King of the Kitori, though in accuracy he was a King Among the Kitori. For many people the Kitori were synonymous with the Unity Council. During the period of the High Council of the Lands of Genertela, the Kitori were increasingly associated with just Kethaela and the Heortling kings were rarely called "Kitori". Thus Varzor is likely - but not, I'd admit, conclusively - a Heortling. It's interesting that Varzor could also become a woman and bear children through this power: this is obviously not a power known to trolls, unless is a very dark secret. I wonder if the Kitori Kings or Queens still know this, but it seems like something only a Hero can do. It's also interesting to compare the Kitori Shadow Lord's changing/altering powers to the changing/making new power of the Larnstings, whom they shared northeastern Kethaela with. It's very curious indeed... (Presently developing an episode for my game called "The Man in the Leaden Mask...") In any case earlier it was said that Aldryami hate Trolls. I think "hate" is a bad word for their attitude for the Eater, which has been a natural part of the World since the Compromise. Everything in proportion... Without fire, rot, cool shade, and insects, there would be neither soil nor new life. Are there any trolls at all in the Kitori Wilds? Any troll kin? I always thought there were some true trolls and such there alongside the Kitori.

Ah, Ok.

An octagon has eight sides. You mean a heptagon. It's possible however, if we are viewing it at the right angle.

I should mention that this was pseudo-historical rubbish - Snorri Sturluson seems to have invented the idea. In the Middle Ages/Renaissance period, historians (and rulers) wanted to derive everyone from Biblical and Trojan ancestors (Japheth was equated with Iapetus or with Jupiter). No one but kooks believe this today. There is no evidence of a connection between the Scandinavians and the Balkan peoples except as Indo-Europeans. Another such claim was that the Getae were the Goths and the Jutes. In Glorantha such claims might have a bit more foundation. I tend to think there was once many Orlanths, not fewer, but that is part because of looking how "Zeus" has many mountains and many birthplaces. In the God-time, all could be true. There's also the conflating of Orlanth with Humath/Umat/Umath.

Of course. Well, they are not descended from Kyger Litor. But they have the Darkness and Man runes, which makes things murky.

Oh pshaw. Those are Darkness Runes. The shop belongs to a Torkani initiate of Argan Argar. Far more likely in Swenstown this talk of Etyries...

It depends on what you mean by troll, my friend. There are ways to be both; just talk to to the Shadow Lords and Ezkankekko about that. And Arkat. Argan Argar is not a troll, after all, but he appears to be one to dark sense. Men see him differently.

Yep! A pretty on spot description of what I came up with too!

I've been contemplating a tangental problem for some time - See my Volsaxi questions thread comments - regarding the existence of the Troll Woods there. Normally regular forests would be eaten. Ultimately I had a theory about a lost secret of I Fought We Won and "Forest Shadow" (an elf version of Argan Argar/Surface Darkness) that allowed (originally) for a symbiosis. But I also have things warped by the seizure of a dryad by a ZZ undead rune lord and her imprisonment in a barrow, so that as with fire there's a localized dominance by ZZ. However, just as with the most human Kitori, there's a "Shade" and "Obscurity" tradition that lies forgotten but technically accessible to the remnants of the Aldryami there. I like exceptions in my Glorantha.

(I stand corrected on the RQ2 Art, sorry) In terms of Icelandic apparel - if not buildings: see this : http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/clothing.htm - I mean, the Orlanthi women in the game even have keys (from that link) : Dunham talks about Icelandic sagas in this interview here: http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2011/02/interview-with-man-behind-king-of.html To be honest, I seem to have assumed that the art reflected these ideas. But I now see it's not so straightforward,

Let's take a deep breath... KoDP based the Heortlings on Icelanders. There was nothing to contradict this explicitly at the time, though early 80s art suggested a more Bronze-Age direction. However, winter dress is going to be different from summer dress: the KoDP is clothing fit for a colder climate. For a modern version of Thracian traditional women's dress, see here - the common features in color and pattern with Slavic attire (and a bit of Scandinavian embroidery tradition as well) is noticeable, but there is in fact cultural continuity in the very festivals (i.e., the Goose Dance) that these groups still celebrate: Weirdly enough, the Thracians were claimed as ancestors by the Scandinavians, based on a supposed origin of the Aesir in "Asia" and Thor from "Thrace".

In addition, we know that Vingkotling forts were round or oval (a practical shape if you're heaping earth or fortifying a hill) - compare Clearwine and the map of (I think - might be misremembering here) Two-top. While it is possible that the shape of the perimeters changed for ritual reasons, there ought to be a good reason for it.

Vinga and Vingkot As I’ve mentioned very briefly before the names Vinga and Vingkot are rather obviously related. In terms of mythologies, it would be sensible for Vinga and Vingkot to be twins or siblings, and thus share a mother: Janerra Alone. (I also think Vingkot is an eroded form of *Wing-kolat, with –kolat being the same root as the name of storm and wind spirits, Kolatings). If this is inferred or outright believed by Broyan and his Vingkotling Ring it would not merely be good manners and befitting a rebel king to host Vingans in his households, it would be mythically required… We may note that Leika and Kallyr are Vingans and became the chief weaponthanes and allies of Broyan in Whitewall. I imagine therefore a reconstructed/synthetic double recognition rite: ‘Ho! Brother, remember me?’ … ‘I have not forgotten your red hair, sister, and your spear… (list of boasts and features of Vinga)…’ and embrace of such women as trusted kin. This is paired with the Vingan recognising Vingkot as her brother and friend, strengthing the claims of Broyan to be Vingkot. (This also rules out any theories about intimate relationships with either women, however). Worcha Rage and Stormfall: the problem of Vingkot’s death A bit before this it was commented that I barely touched on Broyan at Whitewall. Well, this is because I was contemplating the problem of Vingkot’s death and the potential trap that existed for Broyan if he hero-formed there against the Bat. Here’s an excerpt from Sartar:KoH: ‘Whitewall is an ancient fortress that was one of the last strongholds during the Darkness. It was atop Whitewall that King Vingkot, the first Orlanthi king, fought the monster called Worcha Rage and, though defeated, with his last breath he invoked Orlanth who came to defeat the Seas. It sits atop a high plateau of white stone, which the builders used to make the city’s walls. The old Hendriking kings lived there, and afterwards the high kings of the Volsaxar ruled from there. It is a place of great magical power and ritual importance. With the Lunar Conquest of Sartar, Whitewall is the last great stronghold of the Orlanth cult.’ ‘Last breath’ tends to indicate something rather particular – a dying breath. Now Vingkot’s death is elsewhere connected to a fight with a chaos godling at Stormfall. He, of course, is also said to be deathless, and thus, burdened by his wound from chaos, was burned alive to allow his spirit to become a god. These are very bad things to have to confront if you’ve taken the name Broyan Vingkotling. In fact, one could speculate that the Lunars knew this. A chaos godling is just the thing to strike down ‘Vingkot’. The fact that the Crimson Bat manages to approximate the vastness and implacability of Worcha as well is a bonus. And that Whitewall besides being Broyan’s capital is also the mythically resonant site of a near-death or mortal event for Vingkot, so while Broyan could heroform Vingkot versus Worcha to save Whitewall, it would most likely kill him. So Broyan, clearly, changed the rules. He was a Hendriki king, so that is what he chose as his strategy: Larnsting retreat and trickery. This was of course the way of Free Hendrik. But Broyan’s juggling of a second kind of hero into his repertoire has certain unavoidable incompatibilities with Vingkot… Vingkot is not a trickster hero; he’s certainly not the sort to escape like a sort of Heortling Brer Rabbit, leaping across the sky, ‘burning’ with his frenzy of liberation and outlawry. Vingkot is of course the archetypical Orlanthi (not just Heortling) king: generous, brave to the point of foolhardiness, potent, a builder of fortresses, a conqueror of peoples, a slayer of shadow men, ice men, waters, and dragons. Hendrik is the outlaw, the wiley thane, the suspicious (compare how he responded to Harmast to how a ‘great king’ might have), the unpredictable, the treacherous (he tricked Palangio into Dekko Crevice), the Uz-friend (at Dekko Crevice the Uz fell upon the Iron Vrok and killed him and all his shining army), the one who knows the owl ways, the alynx ways, and – curiously – also, he is an ancestor of all Hendriki but is never described as anyone’s father. Though as a member of the Gavrening clan, the blood of Yinkin, he probably has a number of bastards. Instead it is Harmast who has many sons, and I suspect Hendrik’s ‘adoptive brothers’ and sisters that carry on his lineage. These are both Orlanth. But they are diametrically opposed Orlanths. And to be Hendrik in that moment so he could leap on the Bat and slay it by cunning and sleight is Hendrik, not Vingkot. Here, if not before, Broyan was doomed to the manner of his death. Hendrik was never a troll-thrall or a servant of Darkness, but he did know the Shadow Sacrifices and he was allied with the Kitori against the Bright Empire. When one is Vingkot, of course, one is a friend to Elmal, a husband to the ‘Summer Wife’, a father of horse-loving daughters, a slayer of ‘dark men’. But to best the Bat, Broyan needed to be Hendrik in that moment, and by that he bound himself to the oaths of Heort and the Only Old One… This is, I think, why he failed to make the sacrifices once he returned to Whitewall. Because to do so was to cease to be Vingkot. He chose death – willfully or blindly ? – instead.

What style roof is used in Hendrikiland? Having had adobe houses in my family (and a friend lives in one down the road), the outer walls ought to be about four or five feet thick. Wide enough to lie down in the eaves of the windows and nap, if I recall correctly from my childhood.

Yes, you're right. Huh. Still, the outfits are rather similar. Perhaps she had a mid-life change of religious focus... Though they have different tattoos. I think the look is descended from the old artwork (and the new) but, you're right, they've got to be different people.

Maybe there's a connection with Argrath White Bull - later an ally of Broyan's - and the Praxians to this attempt to "find" Tada? Maybe Broyan's decision to seek the Vingkotling mantle is a result of his partial success here? In which case the "seeking of Tada" and "Double Marriage" hero quests might have been researched and attempted in c.1610-1612... and Broyan uses the mythic power accumulated by the attempt to return to Hendrikiland and forge a new ring. I see another veteran of this quest being Argrath of Pavis... and the Healing at the Pairing Stone as being quite possibly misplaced in that narrative. The Pairing Stone may be significant to Vingkot's marriage...

I suspect she's supposed to be the same warrior as found on the classic RQ2 rules cover and the quick start for the upcoming rules.

Well, there's only a few paths that take one to high king of a confederation... Being a (royal) thane; being a respected chief, or, better, a tribal king, or having some sort of relationship to recent kings (and being at least a thane). Let us look at 1613-5 - at this point Broyan sheltered Leika and Kallyr. To do so he had to have the authority, at minimum, equivalent to a Dar chief. This would allow him to offer them salt and shelter. This means that Broyan had a hearth. By 1617 Broyan is able to challenge the provincial governor, Orngerin, and Belintar's magical wards and seize the kingship of Heortland/the Hendriki. To do so requires a massive hero quest, with many supporters. These supporters are siding with Broyan as a manifestly political act. No Lunar assassins have winnowed the numbers of the descendants of the Volsaxi kings - they can't, really, because the kingship is elective and "everyone is descended from kings" is a part of the reality in the area. So by 1617 Broyan is a highly plausible candidate for Volsaxi king, at least among a magically potent minority of tribal leaders. Jane Williams' dates (from her Kallyr research) suggests that the old king died by possible malfeasance but we didn't know about Orngerin's possession of the regalia then. The exact means of deposing and killing Orngerin might be a version of the Bad King Urgain heroquest (in fact, his name sounds kinda similar, which would be handy for any rhymes in the chanting). If they used that one, Orngerin would be transformed from amiable bureaucrat into a cruel tyrant, but that's a mythic necessity... An even more perilous choice, however, would be confronting the Bad Emperor, and given the mythic overlap between Vingkot and his father, this might have been chosen. By 1621 the Sartari in Whitewall are a good portion of the defenders. In fact, Broyan's power probably rests in his strange friends. It is not impossible that in 1613 Broyan, seeing his friends fleeing the Starbrow Rebellion, did a "Creation of the Clan Ring" rite and created a clan from his followers and kin somewhere in neutral or disputed ground (perhaps on the eaves of the Troll Woods) and thus arranged things to be able to legally give them refuge. If so this would fit very well with a Vingkot persona. This made his group not just a war band but also a political player. Until 1617 there's no real Hendriki king, so the name Volsaxi/Volsaxar suggests to me that the four tribes of the north were under the customary "presidency" of the Volsaxi tribal king. Which also strongly suggests that Broyan gained that title before he could challenge Orngerin. My own campaign had/had it that the old king was murdered as a preparatory step to the Lunar invasion in 1619, a few years prior. Exposing this murder and the malfeasance of another candidate for the throne I have planned as an adventure...

(in regard to the Shadow Sacrifices) If no one told Broyan about the Shadow Sacrifices then his sages and law speakers have committed malpractice. The Shadow sacrifices appear many times in Hendriki king lists, which I read as "in-universe". Yes, I think Broyan committed an act of hubris. He said "I am a king in the manner of Vingkot, not a Heortling chieftain!" (or some such) and dismissed the notion of continuing them. Vingkot is not an ally of trolls: he "fights the shadow men".