jeffjerwin

It's also interesting that Argrath's rivals for rulership of Sartar might have even included Telmori. I do think the Helkos Brothers were wolf runners and descendants of Sartar - it's explicit in the Red Cow campaign, after all. The Sartar descendants seem to have been wiped out during the assassination of Temertain, but how could Argrath be sure? Best to kill them all, before a pretender appeared...

One caveat to Joerg's commentary above: Broyan certainly does become High King as the last Vingkotling - the High Kingship of the Heortlings even shares the same title: High King. And of course Bad King Rastagar did summon all the tribes, like the Heortling kings could do later. So until Broyan was slain, Argrath was his inferior. But Argrath has no interest in being another Vingkotling or Hendriki; Broyan's death proved they were bound by too many oaths.

There is of course another reason that Argrath couldn't allow the Telmori to persist: Rufelza as the Moon has taken over Wild-day and was also in a sense Rashoran[a] - they, in the end, could not be trusted. We know from the "Eleven Lights" that the Cinsina were (canonically) in Argrath's camp... This is rough, because I know from the backstory of my own campaign that the PCs will have witnessed the heroics of the Telmori bodyguards in Kethaela defending the last survivors of the House of the Sartar, and fought for Broyan and Kallyr. At some point the moral crux comes: join with the man who displaced and perhaps arranged for the deaths of your kin, or sit the Hero Wars out? Argrath's kingship, also, is a different sort of kingship, new, imperial, matching the Lunars rather than hearkening to Vingkotling/Orlanth Rex archetypes - that is, Broyan. Does Argrath sacrifice Orlanth and Ernalda themselves against the Moon? I suspect so.

I agree, this seems likely. In fact, Elmal would still serve a very useful purpose for the Pol Joni, as they are a mounted not an infantry force...

I thought Ourania was associated with Yelorna...?

No, I'm referring to the foxes mentioned in Gloranthan sources rather than the Elurae. However it seems likely that some sort of common entity spawned both the beast men and the animals.

Well, there are also Black, Blue, and White Foxes - the latter associated with Inora - in Glorantha, so perhaps fox-mother got around?

Yes, and isn't it interesting that there's a person missing from the list of Kallyr's ring...? (see: http://www.jane-williams.me.uk/glorantha/kallyr/complist.cfm). The picture in the Glorantha Sourcebook (p.42) makes it clear that Jar-Eel manifested at the moment the web of AS was spun, which is also where Eurmal let go of the net/web (his final act of treachery). The picture shows someone in a hare costume letting go (thus giving the mythic gap that the Lunar heroine could exploit) before Kallyr flees. I think Elusu "high Trickster priest", one of Argrath's oldest companions, was the culprit. This of course doomed Kallyr. (This is just my Argrath the Villain theory, by the by...) I think Argrath created his various genealogies synthetically by hero questing. But the Telmori could smell him correctly, and they had to be disposed of. This also served the purpose of drawing many tribes onto Argrath's side. The later Wolfrunners/Wolfskins might have stolen the skins of the dead Telmori wolf-brothers and were shown by Argrath how to dominate their spirits - kinda like Harrek, as it happens. Argrath of course knew that to tear down the Moon he had to fuse the Heortlings and the Kethaelans and the Praxians into a single force. This required deception, treachery and real-politick along with heroism and diplomacy.

Joerg commented that the Wolfrunners were somehow created out of the Telmori through Argrath's intervention in the Bithos discussion. I always understood it that the Telmori were massacred and their wolf-skins decorated one of Argrath's hero bands (which suggests at its root a betrayal, since Sartar's promise was to end the Telmori curse, not end the Telmori). This action by Argrath or his allies has always sat uneasily with me, though it may come from hero forming Arkat, who was the foe of the Telmori (Arkat is the archetypical imposter, after all). I have harbored some doubts that Argrath's genealogy and claim to the throne are fully legitimate, and part of me suspects that Argrath had to kill the Telmori because they were the royal bodyguard. This also fits with Jane Williams' apprehension that Kallyr's death was somehow suspect as well.

This reminds me of bibliomancy, and the book and key magic of European folklore. I suspect the Abiding Book could be used the same way. See here: http://newenglandfolklore.blogspot.com/2012/08/fortune-telling-with-key.html

I'd like to discuss this, but it's off topic. Can we start a new thread on the wolf runners? This is the first I've heard of this. I thought Argrath simply extirpated the Telmori.

Doesn't look like it. No doubt - Trickster magic... In the case of the RW myth, many-tailed foxes are of course simply foxes, so they mate with ordinary foxes. But humans can have children with them as well.

Just figured that since certain types of beast have Air (alynxes) or Earth (cattle) it might be useful for gaming purposes (in my case, it specifically is: the Elura(e) is being played - and every other character has at least one elemental affinity). The Elurae are called out as tricksters in the Sartar Companion (and before that in Tradetalk) so I suspect Disorder fits. Satyrs and fauns are no doubt air/storm, as goat and deer creatures - viz. Ragnaglar and Velhara - the goat and deer deities. Also the use of wind instruments by satyrs. Whether mischief is a part of all beast-folk or no - it seems to manifest differently with each of them. Beast certainly includes "wild". As you point out, the fire-stealers aren't fiery, which, now that I think about it - makes sense - they wouldn't need to steal it otherwise. Raven has been posited as a Darkness creature. Foxes are nocturnal... and the other fire-stealer, Zorak Zoran, is also a Darkness entity. Hmmm.

Come, share your fox wisdom... There is an Elurae in my game, living in the Troll Woods. But what are her runes? Beast, Disorder... what sort of element are foxes associated with? I see that Inora has her own kind of foxes. They do seem to be the children of Eurmal as well. Edit: The "Fox rite" is Fire Season, Illusion Week, Wild-day, which hints that the fox is red because of Eurmal the Fire-stealer. Fire? Though the fox is the least psychologically fiery of all creatures...

Around 1900 they were going for $7.35. https://books.google.com/books?id=OHgh0mHgrWYC&pg=PA74&dq=shackles+prices+police&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiSy-Gc2MfZAhXHLmMKHYsQDPQQ6AEINTAC#v=onepage&q=shackles prices police&f=false The value of a dollar in c.1900 was $27; in 1880, it was $22. I'd say $6-7 dollars is accurate.

Yeah, I was misremembering. My fault for relying on my old brain rather than looking at the books... Actually, now that I think about it, I wonder why Daka Fal gets divine magic in RQ... In the new RQ I'd be inclined to have it grant spirit magic and use rituals - trained Magic Skills - to do everything else that the older editions used rune or divine magic for; shamanic magic tends to be ritually intensive. DF and all the other ancestors are Great Spirits or Spirits, after all...

Interesting take. Duke Raus' ancestor worship was represented as spirit magic in Borderlands, though that's long been superseded. KoDP treated spirit worship as identical to theistic worship. My sense is that ancestor cults have never been represented, however, in game, as providing rune-level magics - more the quotidian magics that are both practical and easier. In the real world, ancestor cults are clearly linked to family shrines, heirlooms, and graves, which all suggest that they should be treated as a wyter-like praxis.

I think Yelm's deed doesn't make a lot of sense unless it is Antirius, or it was one of the actions that took place as his soul plunged into the Underworld. She could hardly have turned to corruption before the first murder and the Darkness, unless this happened in a sort of awful moment (or God-time?). However, the reference seems to be to the healing power of sunlight versus infection, which is likely to be an aspect of heat and day rather than Lightfore...

Rats and mice also eat (vellum) books, which is why Lhankor Mhy temples tend to have cats/alynxes, I think.

It's seems likely that Eir-, Ur-, and thus Eir-itha, Ur-alda, Ur-ox all have some sort of Theyalan/God-time root word for cow/cattle (in the RW, no doubt connected to Auroch); hence their identities are all presumably intertwined. There is, of course, no major problem with variant fathers, though mothers is another issue.

Surely somewhere with a Fire Rune association...? Possibly also Chaos. They make my Sense Chaos tingle (i.e., my eyes burn and my nose runs - I've always seen Sense Chaos as very similar, being a "sort of allergic reaction").

What kind of elf are ferns?

(soft drumming) I won’t eat you my sweet I won’t eat you my morsel Between the sun and us Is Mother Night; He won’t burn you my sweet He won’t burn you my morsel Between the hungry world And you Is me They won’t eat you my sweet They won’t eat you my morsel.

Earth Witch/Serdrodosa is a spirit cult from the Heortlings (and presumably Esrolia), who actually helps in finding treasure. There are also trolls living in Nochet, are there not?

Could this be connected to the Serpentbeast Brotherhood that fought/expelled Yinkin? (BoHM)