jeffjerwin

I think Elmal devotees may take on the role of the Bad Emperor (as a member of the Fire Tribe, mythically speaking), but only in a ritual, play-acting sense. Elmali have families, connections, and can marry who they chose (Elmal, like Orlanth and Heler, is also "Hara" or "beloved" to the Earth). Humakti have turned their backs on Life. Elmal became capable of humility when Chalana Arroy healed his blindness, and thus the proper mythic role for an Elmali thane is to be loyal, steadfast, and brave. Not every Heortling man is turbulent, passionate, and moody: some are disciplined, fair, and dedicated to keeping their hearths safe and orderly. Through Elmal, like with Heler, Yinkin, and other gods, Heortlings who don't fit in get a place to shine (pun intended). The price of joining Yelmalio is that you walk away from the role of care taking man - not the Nandani type who does women's work - but still a vital part of the bloodline or clan. Instead, you become one of many, all sworn in obedience to a patriarchal officer. A sort of vague analogy is in being queer in America: many choose to move to the city to be with a larger subculture, while a lot of less visible people end up staying in their home towns, bound there by loyalties of blood and friendship. Either decision is understandable, and some choose the city after being ostracized, though the second choice is more accessible alongside happiness than it used to be. In Glorantha, I think manifesting an unusual rune in a given culture often marks you out as different for better or worse, and has an equal impact on one's life as sexual orientation does in ours. Conflict with "others" in the clan and tribe may be overall worse because of all the friction of the Lunar occupation. Ironically, another contributing factor is probably has been the socioeconomic transformation of the disorganized Quivini into a proto-urbanising nation.

This could be the Mediterranean "two harvests" and hence be associated with the era before the Great Darkness when that sort of fertility was still possible. In our world in especially fertile areas like the Nile, historically, a harvest occurred in January-May and another in October. This implies however a connection between Vingkot and Barntar - the seed god who must be brought to the fields; in Vingkot's case through planting rituals. His mother, of course, Janerra Alone, was perhaps of the Earth tribe like Barntar's. It's interesting, therefore, that, like Flamal, Vingkot's living corpse is burned (yeah, I'm still focused on Vingkot's death/sacrifice rite). Could this be involved in land clearance/burning the ground before planting?

I agree, on consideration... And one wonders if the tradition of they being sisters and daughters of Tada is not specific to the Summer Wife. I wonder if they are necessarily related to Tada or sisters at all in the Saird/Holay/Tarsh tradition. Two rival sisters with the same husband sounds like more like a myth pattern than "reality". Though obviously Genert has a presence throughout the continent, so maybe.

You're probably right... Of course now I'm really wondering about them. What was their bride price? Did they have one? Did they bring herds into the Storm Tribe? After all the women of the Wastes are the real "owners" of the tribal beasts.

The other name of silver is "ul-metal" so perhaps an "ular" is a word for a silver coin - if the names for the sacred metals are Jrustelan or God-Learner, this could be a name used in their former colonies, with some sound changes: ulri, uler, ull, lar, lari. Plus this means there is a semantic resemblance between Uleria (and "love") and silver, which vaguely parallels the interesting gilt, guilt, guild wordplay we see (in part) in Shakespeare's Henry V.

David Scott's statement here suggests that if Tada's daughters can be connected to the Vingkot cult they might still have be represented by devotees of the Three Bean Circus.

Interesting... does that mean that they are related to the summer and winter wives of Vingkot?

There's a fair bit in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.

Looks like the server is down - I can't connect to the update. I hope it will run on OS X, because that's all I got.

Yeah, Elmal was chief when Orlanth was outlawed, dead, or in the Underworld. That's a pretty big deal. Orlanth told the rest of the Storm Tribe to follow the strange Fire Tribe sword thane because he was reliable, unlike most of Orlanth's brothers (and no, Humakt is not a good chief). Edit: But this also means that Elmali thanes can also attempt to gain the chieftainship or kingship of any Balanced or War Clan (Peace seems less likely to me) and by sending off ambitious Elmali to become loyal soldiers of Monrogh's weird Sun colony rivals they can be disposed of in an honorable fashion... I can't help but think that this weakened Sartar, even though it seemed logical at the time. The Sun Domers were neutral in 1602... so the whole point of a disciplined army being at the command of the King's friend at Vaantar backfired - though Monrogh did fight at Grizzly Peak in 1582, he died, leaving the County in the hands of men with no personal loyalty to the Prince. Elmali are all about being loyal to their king. Yelmalio serves the distant Sun.

Yeah, I realized now that the Dragonewt issue - one of my fav collection of Glorantha illos- is illustrated by him.

True, though I can't imagine a better entity to discipline or command Idrima than her own mother.

Why would it be silly? Dangerous, perhaps, but not a bad idea if you really want to succeed. However, there might be less powerful Earth divinities that are less intimidating and closer by. Depends on how desperate things get, I reckon.

This makes sense. Monrogh and his converts fought specifically for Tarkalor against the Kitori. They were rewarded with lands in Forthanland and the Amber Fields... So the ascendency of the Yelmalians corresponds to greater conflict with trolls/shadowlords. Monrogh's closeness with Tarkalor also suggests that Yelmalians were favoured by the later House of Sartar because of this consideration, along with their military value. Elmal is more valuable to clans and tribes that prize cooperation/detante with darkness, water, and other "stranger pantheons" that Orlanth brought into the stead (though it seems to be suppressed among the non-Torkani and Kitori, there is evidence (I think) that Darkness Woman and other spirits from Below were indeed living at the Storm Stead). Just my two bolgs here.

In both areas where Yelmalio displaced Elmal (the Far Place/Alda-Chur) and on the Hendrikiland-Sartar border there were and are trolls. Is Yelmalio better at fighting trolls? That could also be a practical reason why the change occurred.

Works for me. Based on what we know, they ought to be good at "what they do" and not good at "what they don't do". Elmal defends the stead, rides horses, and controls fire; Yelmalio fights in disciplined formations, extends justice, and shines as a pure light. Since RQ3 was based around adventurers and not military formations maybe we just saw part of Yelmalio (I'm agreeing with some people on the earlier page here...).

Perhaps a reference to Ronance (it could have been mistaken for a chariot)?

There are also Wolf Pirates to worry about.

For this to be true, Yelmalio would have to have toddled along with Orlanth back to his stead and joined it (perhaps under the "assumed name" of Elmal) quite freely after he "died" at the Hill of Gold. Elmal kept people alive at Kerofin; his "Protection in the Darkness" aspect seems to call for light and heat (in opposition to Darkness-Cold). There's also the matter that the summit of Kerofin is clearly mythically connected to Inora's snows, yet Elmal remains awake (eternally awake = burning in a yogic sense) on her body. I actually (in my varied Glorantha) believe that Elmal was the fiery heart of Yelmalio, stolen from his body by Eurmal (who is mythically the fire-stealer and the "other" of Elmal/Yelmalio: Er-mal versus El-mal) after Yelmalio died at the Hill, who was reconciled to Orlanth and brought to Kerofin. Ultimately the Yelmalians would benefit from "consuming/incorporating" Elmal, who is a fundamental part of Antirius/Anatyr (Anatyr = Elmal), but their mythology fetishizes sacrifice and loss - and Yelmalio would cease to be distinct from his "father" (and in fact be reconciled to Orlanth) if he was truly merged with Elmal. (Sorry, just a farrago of God-learning for you all). The gods are the same but from different perspectives/moments in the God-time. But God-time moments are eternal, not consecutive.

Didn't Elmal's fire remain burning on Kerofin throughout the Great Darkness?; he was there when the Lightbringers returned and the Sun rose. I don't think the Elmali sacred fire is supposed to go out.

Yep. An epic series. Also, it's only generally inspired by Indian legend and history: its relationship to them is more akin to the LotR to Northern European legend.

Thank goodness. The "Fourth Age" I think ought to always be YGMV. It lets everyone's story matter. Now I will make some insolvable comments on that Age.. The "five and the seven came back" in the reign of Queen Renedali, after Argrath [KoS, p.134] - this is suggestive of the Ernaldan chant (which has been discussed today on the Glorantha facebook page...): "You are the mother, you are the one. You are the wife of storm and of sun. We are the seven, we are the five, We are the thirty who keep all alive." So some gods (but not all) may have returned in some form. The White Moon is inhabited by a benevolent deity [KoS, p.35]. Still, I have my game in Hendrikiland, so wondering what happened to Belintar (or who Harshax is) is somewhat (very vaguely) peripherally important to my campaign. I doubt a definitive answer is a good idea. Still, the TotMoL&D is presumably connected to Loon Island, and to the fragments of Belintar. How Harshax came to be may be a matter for the twilight period after the end of the Red Moon... Harshax may be an emperor, however, given that the emperor Garteeld/Gartendel was two reigns before him. The title "emperor" is suggestive. The similarity in names between Harshax the Magnificent and his predecessor Hestendax the Magnificent may also imply continuity. "Harsta" is a Tarshite woman's name, the name of the mother (Harsta Blacktooth/Orindori) of Pharandros [GtG I, p.175, KoS rev., p.107]. The Orindori were the clan of none other than Fazzur Wide-read [HQ:G, p.28], and thus of Enjeem, who also seems to belong to this family. While I am not wedded to my theory am inclined to stick with it, at least to see where it leads; there are clear evidences that the Sacred Kings were Tarshite. "Harst" is of course the Issaries subcult of Spare Grain and Silos, and the Reeve and Trade-talker, which seems like it would pair well with the few facts we know about Harsh[t]-ax, and the intimations we have of famine, communication breakdown and loss of fertility/food-keeping magic in the Fourth Age; Garteeld/Gartendel can be compare to Garzeen. Compare the Minoan construction of palaces around grain silos. Is it possible that what the Fourth Age models is the development of a monetary economy? That's kinda depressing.

He was of course dismembered by JarEel, his soul divided with his body. This is the method pioneered by Arkat/Nysalor against Gbaji, but it was only temporarily successful: Rufelza seems to have incorporated at least a piece of Gbaji. In a sense, the transformation of Kajabor into Time is also an attempt to tear apart and transform a god. It looks like gods can't really be killed, except by Chaos itself (Isn't Nysalor in part made to of one of the seven fragments of Yelm?). Hence Harshax might be a fragment of Belintar incorporated into a successor-figure... It is interesting that Wakboth returns - there's a sense that he is unkillable. Nysalor becomes both a part of Arkat and a part of dismembered Gbaji. Rufelza becomes the White Moon. Belintar became... ? If we look again at Argrath, it's interesting that one of the inconsistencies in the post-1625 texts is the problem of Kethaela and of the City of Wonders. The latter is both said to have been destroyed and made into the prison of Pharandos and his sister Estal Donge; weirdly, Phargantes, their half-brother, is the son of none other than Jar-Eel and of Moirades... And Phargantes is the Emperor of the "Good Empire" and the "New (Black) Moon" - the Black Moon being linked to Chaos. I don't have a clearly thought out theory (yet) but it's interesting that there's this connection between the Rufelzan bloodline and the prisoners of the Loon Island (italics intentional - note the blending of the Keetish goddess Imarja with the notion of a Lune). Note also that Belintar had a Moon rune, taken into herself by Jar-Eel (viz the Prince of Sartar webcomic) - this rune is probably one of the seven portions of the dismembered soul/body of Belintar. Is it possible, as darkly hinted with Gbaji-Arkat, that "Harshax" was somehow created by Jar-Eel and the mad king Moirades, and that the Empire won in a magical sense? How do we know that Argrath is who he says he was? Could the empire of Harshax, stripped of the Great Gods, who are consumed by Chaos, be the Empire of the White Moon, with the gnawing wound of Chaos finally harmonized/balanced against the Universe? Was Argrath a patsy for the ultimate triumph of JarEel - who is, of course, an avatar of the Red Moon herself?

They also appear in The Golden Dawn sourcebook from PP, but it would be cruel to expect it to be handy.

Well, there's certainly a return to Draconic magic, if Argrath's actions are as reported. He also becomes a God and many Gods are destroyed/disappear - presumably the gods of Arachne's Net. But that is not all gods. Certainly Lhankor Mhy's writing disappear, however. I cannot but help believe that there is innate conflict between his "Reaching Storm" and the anarchistic tendencies of the Orlanthi. Of course I also suspect Argrath of engineering the deaths of Kallyr and Broyan, so I am not objective in this. The great empire - the "enemy" that seeks to include/consume all others (as I perceive it) - in KoS is Harshax, which is apparently linked to Belintar. The First Age is the age of Arkat and the Bright Empire... So I'm curious to know (a bit of a segue here) about people's Harshax theories.