HeartQuintessence

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

The way it's described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is that the plowman "turns the Earth to meet the Air." So, in the Heortling view, you're uniting husband and wife to make the land fertile so that Ernalda's daughters (the crops) can be born and grow. Barntar himself is repeatedly described as the link between the powers of Air and Earth, as much Ernalda's son as Orlanth's even if he isn't allowed to know the deeper mysteries of life and fertility (merely being the facilitator of it).

Further, Barntar is described as Ernalda's favorite son, and there's no mention of any enmity or hostility directed his way from Maran or Babeester (in fact the former tried to keep him as a thrall once and put him to work for her), so it doesn't seem like the Earth goddesses treat Barntar's plowing as a rape or defilement or any such kind of crime or injustice (and if it were, Babeester in particular would have a lot to say about it, and her axe would be doing the talking). Of the Earth goddess I'm aware of only Aldrya hates that kind of thing, but only on the principle that she wants wild forests instead of farmlands and doesn't care about what anyone else wants or needs.

That's sort of how you get what's called a "triaty," a small three-clan tribe seen in the Human Resettlement where men of Clan A only marry women from Clan B, men from Clan B only marry women from Clan C, and men from Clan C only marry women from Clan A (potentially you could also reverse this with male exogamy, which may well be what the Tree Triaty did, we don't actually know much about them). It's a good way to help cut down on inbreeding and ensure strong relationships in a tense situation where you don't know your neighbors (and may not have any for a while) and your population is quite small.

 Well all of this is super informative.
I definately think this clan is more Peaceclan, or a Balanced clan. From their outset 'There is ALWAYS another way' has helped and held them together.
I think male Exogamy is what I was going for originally, that the men marry out more often, but if/when the women do marry out, they always make sure to leave a child or two with the clan.

So then I suppose I can turn to you all to help me peg down this ideas, I am scratching these out as I go so feel free to feed into them, or comment:

 1625 is also the Dragonrise, which probably would have been relayed to the Clan in some form.
 
 So we're looking at invented traditions, and they're doing that rather wholesale:
 
 The Lioness(Alynx) Wyter- is the White Lioness, her hunting sisters form the bloodlines of the clans alynxes, and the Wyter herself was a hunting companion to Vinga during the Lesser and Greater Darknesses, Ernalda adopted the Lioness making her not a spirit persay, but not quite a godbeast either (?)
 
 But I do agree that ultimately the clan thrives on that idea:Of old our peoples were one but split apart, but now we come together again and recognize each other as kin through our shared ancestors once more."

The idea about the Companion's Lawstaff quest is something I'll have to research.
 
 Their Ancestresses include, each of the big bloodlines anyway
 Lunars: Thaenya Suren Estara
Grazelander: Eneela Ring-Mother
Orlanthi :Irvarnestra The Shepard

So I guesst the question is how does one weave together a mythos that's perhaps been untold for ages, and pull it back into the light.

I find that the clan draws from all of its groups to create something visually unique- like adult women wear their hair a certain way and advertise their williness for lovers or husbands with ornaments (rings woven or braided, so a girl's first set is important.)

I feel like the Lunar Empire needs to contributed polish- but since they're no long in big cities  its a little hard. Suggestions?

Ok,. I like this. and now I've got to figure out how to apply it to the Glimmerstones, who because they're new- (which is apart of this exercise), is something I am struggling with.

I guess I'll type up the short synopsis so I can show people what I am working with because my Glorantha Clan Folder notes are a mess.

Glimmerstone History

14 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

Awesome explanation Leingod. Agreed that would do away with the need for marriage between bloodlines as social glue. But how then should we interpret things like Agrath's clam to the Royal House of Sartar, or the inheritance of traits (among gods or mortals) that seem to be linked to direct parentage. Are these just happening in another paradigm, so that socially/culturally/legally I'm the daughter of my clan; but my heroic nature comes down in a straight line from my biological ancestors? 

It is possible that in Gloranthat is is simultaneously both?
The Direct parentage of any individuals (genetics), and then the mytho-history being laid on top of that?

Ahh.

1 minute ago, Nick Underwood said:

Great Stuff @HeartQuintessence

Loved the Rainbow-coloured goat/sheep and the Bridle Rites - they really love their horses. (In a sense this is kind of reuniting the original horse&rider beast that existed before they were cut into separate animals - I've forgotten whose myth that is, but maybe your grazelanders bring a connection to it.) 

And you found a solution to a perennial issue I have with clan exogamy! If everyone marries outside the clan, then bloodlines have no blood ties between them and share no ancestry. What is holding the clan together? Only the unifying force of the Wyter? Your solution is a first-class anthropological discovery: same-clan parents may be common, but needs no marriage contract as there there can be no dispute over which clan the children belong to. That will be my answer hereon-in.

I'm not sure I could make comments that would be helpful, rather than just distracting. I'm no Glorantha expert and have little to add to the abundance of creative ideas you're channelling. I'm currently calculating the calorific benefits of spring harvests at Clearwine. Why muddle your delightful folkloric stories with that kind of thinking? They are far better without it.   

When you're channelling the juju, don't stop to measure it.

Wait.. what did I "discover"?
I don't know if I'd count that as a discovery. Exogamy keeps a clan going,, because there is always new blood. But I'd imagined that the Glimmerstone clan is careful with record keeping- both of their animals and people. B. More and new bloodlines can come into exitance via adoption into the clan (and in the past 10 years, I think the women have had to do that. By adopting someone into the clan, but saying :You are amoung us, and but not yet of us, until you have someone to perpetuate your blood ( sireing or bearing a child) your in kind of this weird noman's land.

59 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

I was inspired by the notion of internal vs external stories to look back over some of the agricultural stuff: thinking along the lines that internal stories will be driven by events and practices of everyday life, and what is more everyday than getting enough food on the table.

Looking at the RQG stuff on agriculture that I'd ignored before, I came across this: "A plow requires two oxen to pull. Among most farmers in the Dragon Pass region, only certain people may use the plow upon the earth, most commonly initiates of Orlanth or his son, Barntar the Plow God." (RQG: p177)

So my first thought was: Typical Orlanthi sexists with their patriarchal appropriation of the means of production.

Second thought was: Wow!! What potent mythological significance lies behind that social rule. Plowing the land: the violent penetration and scarring of the submissive Earth by masculine power, followed by the casual broadcasting of his seed...  This is not only about limiting women's access to the tools of survival, this is about ritually re-enacting the rape and submission of womankind. Barntar, you dark horse!

How would your Women's Clan respond to the cultural and mythological constraints? 

Do you subvert the social rules (and the narrative) by becoming Plow-women and adopting mythologically appropriate attitudes. (I can plow Ernalda as well as any man...)

Or could you instead adopt a no-plow agriculture that depends on cooperation with the feminine powers of fertility rather than domination? (There is is more than one way to bring a food forest to climax.) This latter option could be something that looks a lot like modern permaculture. But it may also be a more ancient tradition from a time before the windy gods when Earth cults predominated. So as your new clan looks for a mythological voice, it may find it is rediscovering something that has always been just under the surface.

Or, another idea, perhaps you could invert the power relations within in the dominant myth? A shy and timid Barntar cultist has to be coaxed (actually paid!) into action, and is symbolically tied to the plow - now pulled by feminine-associated dinosaurs who scrape Orlanth's brother over the land until the Earth goddess is satisfied.(Yay, triceratops-plow!)

Whatever the solution, women's agriculture offers some interesting opportunities (and motivations) for building the mythological foundations of your clan.
 

Well that was dark, @Nick Underwood . I often think of scattering seed on a field to be a procreative act... ooh.. that was very suddenly horrific. (Not a bad thing, just a different thing.)

I actually think the Glimmerstone Clan acknowledges the nesscity of men and their strength and power. THey have to. Women bear and carry children, its physically a taxing and intense demand on their bodies- they can't be pushing around plows and oxen while heavily pregnant (though I am sure there are some women who do. And with the aid of an Eneralda priestess, the work will be done.)

I do not think they are constrained by it in any means.  Without women, without the power that Ernalda holds literally the world dry up and die. So yeah, I think there are women who plow and drive those mythological attitudes  normally attributed to masculine people, just as easily.

This is giving me a lot to think about and draft, and I'd love for you to read up and comment on the documents in the google docs- mostly because I want to see some of these ideas pressed up against and commented on in the document so I can incorporate them.

The clan was formed because most of their men, were dead, or not yet men. Those first few months after Starbrow's Rebellion failed, and indeed the following years- were hard because the women had to evaluate every single man they came across, under a numb of factors.

I do like the idea of  a no plough agriculture, but it maybe unsustainable in the long run.

Ok that dinosaur pulled plough idea is pretty awesome.

But I think the level of inherent violence that is in most of these methods, paints them in a culture that doesn't work well for them.

This coalition of lionesses (for lack of a better visual) was created from the broken parts of dozens  of communities. Women who had lost their men to outsiders,  and in the case of the few Lunar among them- the Orlanthi who hated Lunars so much that they reduced a wedding caravan, so they Lunars would know the same pain. Not to mention the Grazelander contingent who came into the picture because Orlanthi Windlord pushed for a marriage because she wanted the Grazer's daughter as a wife.

So I think this group is less 'the violence of men have done us wrong' and they would like to symbolically  turn those tables, I look at it as these women have either been chosen, either through themselves or through circumstances to come together and hold their own.

They do not deny that there is violence in the world and some of it is done to women.

But I do like the idea that Bantar Cultists should be coaxed and guided to action (and paid for it). For they are part of the generative force of life as well. But I do imagine that this  is an interesting idea that I should figure out.

I think  a few ideas I can toy with:
1) Bantar  is a Men's God, who's relationship with the earth is quite strong- he works it, but he does have a tendancy to do a lot checking with the Earth- as he knows that Ernalda's blessing should be conversed with and understood before you go  trying to use it.

2)Dino pulled plows- not a bad idea, but the fertilizer from Oxen is probably better for composting and they are far more compact that Dinosaurs, Dino-barns would had to be LARGE. And I don't think there is an easy way to give the Glimmerstone clan sensible access to a Maran Gor (Babesteer Gor)- creature sensibly.

3) Women definitely plow and work the land along side their men, since many women are Ernalda initiates from womanhood, I'd think that most young women, during the spring following their ascent (descent?) to Womanhood, would act  in the interest of the clan and work with the men to help speak to the Earth- so all the plowing can happen in a timely fashion. - Permaculture, they do part the earth and plant seeds, and care for them but they do it sustainably.  (Which I like). So maybe it is Permaculture and creating and breeding plants and animals which work with their land- as a source of power and pride.

People of Glorantha subforms: Lore spot me:

Do any 'Heortlings', not call themselves Heortlings and trace their power and line of descent not from Heort but from his Wife Ivarne? (and so are Ivar(n)lings?)

I ask because my I started back tracing via :https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Ivarne

 In doing so it made me realize that I can justify my clan's existance, by easily saying that Ivarne and Heort's daughters were many and married off amoungst different tribes and peoples, and that the tribe that has formed in 1625 is the  culmination of such bonds reasserting themselves and fate itself working them back into a workable clan. If each of these daughters (let's say 3, marry into say Lunar/Darra Happan- ancestry, Pure Horse People and of course some Vinkotling, that gives reason to be more different?

Or am I over thinking things?

Thank you.

@Nevermet

I think the Koza are still /very/ new. This clan doesn't come into existence until 1625, and the Koza have only been recently found- or Hero-quested for- mostly because they needed land they could defend to feed them ( grazing them on the Anwyth's land sounds like a recipe for disaster, but maybe they did.

I realized that the Who Calls to You is a good gender neutral start to someone becoming an Adult and  acknowledging where they sort of fit into the clans view on things is important.

Though I think the Who Calls to You is a rune awakening moment- that helps solidfy a Rune for you.

Actually Go for it, I want to see this character. Tell me about them, maybe it'll help me jump start my own ideas. I struggle a bit because whether heroquest or Runequest the assumption is characters are born by 1604 (I think).

That is some amazing stuff.

It makes me think about how a Tula that's able to support Horses, and Koza(Goat-sheep), and regular sheep, must be some combination of Beautiful fertile valley, plains and forest, and how big its going to have to be. And how  close to the spirit world a place like Voria's Garden must be- as it crosses into the mortal world.

Actually how do you all deal with that bleed (or existance of a place in the mortal and gods worlds?)

The Story of Voria's Garden is not where the Dawn was born persay, but where Flowers and Animals were said to have helped clear the land *cue Winter Wrap up from MLP Friendship is magic Season *

But thinking about how spirits might affect the world, and shape it. If they are apart of a river, or stream, or hill or forest,  can they push its boundaries? Or be hemmed in, or let loose by the people living on their lands?

Can we just talk about how people in clans maybe encountering spirits and local regional geographical spirits- on like a daily basis at some level. Someone mentioned an Ash Creek Lady.

And my mind immediately turned to a bunch of children playing in a creek and one of them get tumbling into a deeper part of the water and helpful water spirit giving them some help (like Haku in Spirited away (Studio Ghibli for the win)- "and I remember your cute little shoe" ( best line in the movie). And how that would affect a child- and a clan...

Exactly.

It makes me thinking about how much emphasis is placed on the combat and how it would nessacerily be those combatants who'd win the day. It'd be the Priestess and the Priestesss making sacrifces, and praying to the Gods.

It would be the people who remained in the steading, making those small daily sacrifices : "May my husband come home whole,"  "May the blessed air carry the cries of our new child to him when he needs the most strength." "May Yinkin's loyalty and steadiness in hunting stregnthen my resolve to hunt"

Those big battles, are just that big battles. Sure they define things, but I feel like those people going about their lives and the clergy interacting with their gods may have been forgotten.

So I guess the question is how do you build Family Charts that do not revolve around battles. (Or even happen in Sartar)

36 minutes ago, Dethstrok9 said:

Thank you, I appreciate it.

Hopefully we can play RQ sometime in the future:)

I hope so my discord's always open.

I Own, Coming Storm ,and THe Eleven Lights, and I have some of the HW/HeroQuest stuff, in trying to figure out how to formulate my things.

Oh that's neat.

Yeah my goal is to look outside Sartar. THat's the point of the Clan, they recognized that Sartar is too 'crowded'. They were living on 'granted' land. But it wasn't theirs. And while it was ok, they also acknowledged that they needed their own land space. thus they seek Voria's Garden- a place of new beginnings, of Spring, and hopefully a place to start anew.

I really wanted to show and chronicle that journey from coalition to clan,  and focus on how things are done, and resolved, in other ways.

You're right its a lot of action movie fodder. (Weirdly I am taking a lot of 'hints ' from some slower paced Anime in some veins Studio Ghibli movies are always an inspiration for that their core their female protagonists traverse their world, needing other options because fighting isn't something their wanting to do (or they have no skills ) Naussica springs to mind as a character who can hold her own with a blade.. but realizes that she has to walk a fine line.

And hoping people can see maybe through my example that there is always another way.

Good job on the videos sofar.

I started this thread because I didn't want to Necro-post  my  month old "Women in Glorantha Thread".

So, it's occurred to me that Women in Glorantha have a lot of lee way in some respects in what they do. And the more I think on it, the more I think about creating a Glorantha supplement, website, blog (?) (maybe just a google document) called "The Hearth" - Adventures for Women, (for RuneQuest  & HeroQuest), specifically, focusing on  creating active  scenario ideas and fiction for female characters  (and all that encompass that in Glorantha).

Its been making me realize that so much of Glorantha is 'external' (though that is slowly changing and there have been amazing supplement :Valley of Plenty  & Six Seasons in Sartar spring to mind, immediately, but The Red Deer Saga ( all of these and much more on the Jonstown Compendium)- it got me thinking, as how  much of Glorantha says Men do this , Women do that, but then  never explain how the women are active participants much in society, because the activites of their goddess seem mostly passive : She is not dead, She sleeps- springing to mind.

So if people want to contribute ideas or threads of one. I'd like that. I am going to use my self-made Clan as the focal point. Mostly because they're literally knew (created in 1625, by a coalition of women from various groups).

So I realized I can use them to tell a mythic history that binds them together in their clan making, in a way that many clans struggle to do.

Their actual clan making dance is started by a not- adult female. It got my mind turning about how a collection of women who aren't a clan yet- might go about collecting and pressing their mythical history in the God time, and giving it voice.

Their Wyter is the White Lioness (Alynx), and her pride-sisters form a sort of women's fyrd. There are Vingans but these two groups work together, as their story says that Vinga found the lion-cub in the Great Darkness and brought her to Ernalda, and the two became hunting partners.

How this story effects others which effect and grow the clan, making women both the nucleus and active in their clan's life in and politics in a way we've not often seen before. Admitedly I also looking to the tribe to help me cut the wheat from the Chaff, because I think my clan idea has too many ideas. And I think , while I am over on the Clan Hearth over on Facebook, sometimes things don't get cross posted ot brought up here so I thought I'd throw this out there.

So I do invite you all to join me in my endeavor.

 Below is the half-created ramblings of a creative mind (but hopefuly with time this will get more organized) and with your help it'll get some unique perspectives.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1H65IhL4-LmhF7zHLHR9L8eMQrCS_c7_H?usp=sharing

Great job.

Elfquest Elves are not in the stone age.. they're... distinctly complicated. All the elves of Abode are very complicated.. (see the 40 years of comics)

Good point. I've never actually had an encounter with the physical book. and pdfs probably do not exist if this was published... *wikipedia* 1984...

On 5/28/2020 at 8:26 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Speaking of which.. what is ElfQuest and RingWorld about?! 😮

Elfquest is a comic that's been going for 40 years and about 35 of them are avaiable at Elfquest.com ( GO READ IT ITS IN COLOR, FOR FREE~!)

The world is amazing, the character's a re deep and interesting. The series can be loved by  children and adults and actually triggers some VERY thought provoking questions.

I would love to do some ELFQUEST, I actually built a cool Elfquest adjacent world (i.e. we know other High Ones left The Star Home, what about their adventures?)

If people are interested I'd be willing to  see about Veritas-- though I think the Elfquest RPG is hard to find (its definately out of print, but there are dozens of other systems that might work better for EQ, since in the elfquest RPG apparently you can fail to telepathically talk to others... ( which is fine if you're an elf who's never done it, but for some elves its a matter of survival to do that... soo.. you shouldn't be able to fail unless impaired in my opinion.)

Not that I am aware of, but I am sure we could make some. The Valley's been hidden, but now that the clan will claim it, people will see it. the land scape will change.
That should bring some trade, I can image them setting up tiny outposts, smaller than Apple Lane, but just as important. Their newly discovered glimmer fruit which makes their sheep's wool all different colors.

3 hours ago, g33k said:

One caution I'd offer:  it's very possible to have your clan TOO hidden, TOO cut-off.

Just as new PC's -- going through character-generation -- are embedded in their cultures, make sure your new Clan is embedded in the world, with allies and rivals (and yes, even enemies!) in the larger world of Glorantha, and the region where you live.

It's far too easy (sometimes even automatic/default) to fall into the clannish version of the "lone wolf PC" trope.

 

That was some thing I was thinking of. I want them to be close to be able to have allies and enemies in Sartar, to be able to Trade with Esrolia, and Tarsh, and maybe even Darra Happan somehow.
They're too small a group to survive like this  on their own so they'd have to depend on allies and ties to other places built up over the past decade. From the Esrolian contingent they trade and welcome their sisters and cousins. From the Sartar, they can forge new alliances with clans, and the like.
But you all are right, I can't have it too well hidden., though for such a small group the hidden nature of the value is a boon, until they can be strong enough to protect it on their own.

That is something I realized, that if your used to living the Lunar Empire, or in someplace like Esroia then living effectively int he back hills like an Orlanthi would just throw you off your game.
But since the group has been together for 10 years now, I imagine that while not a clan, persay, they have tried to maintain ties and community bonds with others places, mostly Esrolia  and Lunar Tarsh... maybe even as far away as Dara Happan.

I have sort of tried it might worth a shot again it's been a few months