Snugz

IMG the Cleansed One was not just some boring average broo but rather was a major player in the Chaos army of Wakboth et al., even killing/mortally wounding Seolinthur. He was called Jajakan (a name of an otherwise uninteresting foe in a published Heroquest heroquest; foe of Zola Fel). In the 3rd Age no one remembers this/it has been suppressed but heroes can quest and find it out, much to their chagrin especially if they are River Voices. It worked well IMG.

If you can find any of Ian Thomson's ?late 1990s-early 2000s Pavis/Grey Company supplements, the ogre conspiracy w/Ogre Island, Eye of Wakboth and vampires and stuff are detailed in there and would fit fine into 1626. Very dungeon-y. I had tons of fun with it.

Maybe no longer (to be) canon, but maybe who cares-- [SPOILER]

Yeah seems to be Avalor-- https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Avalor

I thought the Rokari were trying to recreate Danmalastan? Maybe that is in some non-canon stuff I read, though.

I loved it so much, I even Photoshopped the Guide's map of the coast to return it to match the Orange Box's island configuration, which had Giraine visible as a pathetic sliver of land; for some reason deleted in the Guide (probably stochastic reasons). Good to know the author; for some reason I never knew it!

I got into the West by accident and happenstance, and for practical issues. When I played RQ3 as a Pavis campaign, even with Sandy's rules we never liked sorcery much but my curiosity was piqued by the well-characterised Rokari in Strangers in Prax. I set that aside, since we never were going to play in the West. Then years later I decided to start a new campaign using MRQ (ouch! yeah, we moved on quickly enough), and I thought this Tradetalk article on the little Pithdaran isle of Giraine was utterly fantastic. I loved the tiny enclave of Malkioni heretic colonists set against the savage even more heretical native Malkioni (the Giranois) and underneath it all tones of tension between sorcery, theism, animism and (with a hint of draconic presence) mysticism plus the social struggle of castes; on one tiny island. Plus Godlearner necromancers, Waertagi, and hints of Arkati + Uz. it was easy, too, to make it a "sea campaign" and wander around other regions via 1 PC's ship, for variety so players wouldn't get too bored stuck on that island (we played various published stuff like the Island of Nekeros from TOTRM10). With other articles on Vadeli and such, I felt I had enough to build a fun campaign on that explored the main plotline of (1) broader Western Hero Wars e.g. Quinpolic League vs. Seshnela; and (2) local, seemingly trivial issues that grow in importance (a Talar gets moved here with his household and realizes its a s***hole island; then they find out that there are amazing epic things to do and get caught up in island politics that eventually connect with big Hero Wars issues). I like the Rokari as "baddies" (but they do mean well), and so do my players. And then they're not nearly as bad as the Vadeli, who do NOT mean well at all but sometimes still must play by Lawful rules. So there's a lot of moral spectra to explore along with the adventure. I didn't understand the Waertagi but eventually came around, sort of. And the fact that so little was (and still is) written meant that I could make a lot up myself, and/or adapt to what got published. Frankly by that time as a GM I was immensely bored with much of Dragon Pass/Prax and wanted something new that was Gloranthan. So it fit the bill. I wouldn't be brave enough to try to run a Kresh wagon-rider campaign as I'd have no clue how to do it, but I bet it would be fun if I knew how.

Mythras with some house rules/relicts of older systems (we've been playing for just over 12 years now).

I love this thread. The sagacity is humming on all cylinders and there are great ideas for making the West fun. I don't have a lot to add but in case it gives any ideas or is of interest here's how it was/is being run in my campaign (started 1621, currently midway thru Boat Planet heroquest in 1624 Sea Season; campaign centred on the tiny isle of Giraine off Pithdaros and its hapless heretics enmeshed in QL-Seshnelan politics): (clearly I read the Guide/other materials' timings of events differently than some) [spoilers for my players so don't read!] 1621-1623 Seshelan-QL tensions mount, with big Seshnelan invasion of Nolos crushing it in end-1623, Theoblanc declaring Navigationalism anathema (religion dies; Zzaburi/buildings burn etc.) and Pasos assaults begin. Pithdaros tries to help but isn't much aid; coming too late as usual. PCs gradually learn of Seshna cult connections/revival and "new Froalar" prophecies/possibilties, with one PC becoming such a New Froalar and seeking out a local aspect (fragment) of Seshna Likita to woo. Theme is that the shattered lands of Seshna have many fragmented Likitae who need to be re-united through ties to Talars in order for the land to heal again; and the region. Arkati and allies (Elandra, Uz, "Night Dragon" weird Western aspect of Black Dragon/Shadow Dragon, possibly connected to Black Sun out East; etc.) begin slowly extending tendrils into local affairs as that tension in Ralios vs. Seshnela mounts. Vadeli are getting their claws into everything and slowly awakening the Blue Vadeli presence, with Red Vadeli pirates becoming more and more of a problem. 1624 it all kicks off: Wolf Pirates return, Mularik leads some Westerners onto the Boat Planet to bring back Waertag the Reaver (for him, to aid the Wolf Pirates and his Arkati schemes vs. Guilmarn; but he doesn't know/care that this helps the Waertagi too). The Boat Planet returns and Waertagi fleet comes back from Hell as a result; they bring the Brithini to help finally crush the QL, and Wolf Pirates move east, with a "puppet" installed to rule Pithdaros, who quickly surrenders to Seshnela rather than fight a doomed battle once Pasos falls. Unfortunately the Vadeli bring back some Hellships of undead Waertagi and so the seas of the West become a battleground for Waertagi vs. Vadeli, for the time being; with Seshnela more focused on their continental affairs vs. Ralios + Arkati. Refugees from QL flee but so far I've envisaged them as thus becoming irrelevant, scattered to the four winds; maybe I will reconsider. Eventually the Brithini will have to intervene with the Vadeli, and the Seshnelans; they are playing the long game. Chaos seeps in as a result of all of this, encouraged by Vadeli and other villains, and the Gate of Banir opens as "Arkat the Deceiver" returns, and the West gets uglier. I haven't planned precisely how that will pan out, but the other Arkats will be part of the opposition (drawing in PCs of course).

Waertagi can be opponents/challenges on the Westfaring part of the Lightbringers Quest (~Grey Shore/Luathela area), with LBQers getting a ride on a Waertagi ship via force or via bargaining, so that could be a tie-in; the Waertagi could use this to benefit from the Storm Tribe's Air magic (for later usage?).

If you've played the purple Luathan folk as a GM or thought about it, any ideas for things they'd do if met by heroquesters in Luathela? I've got what's published on them (& related Lightbringers Quest-type stuff); fishing for extra flair. (Players if you're here, don't look)

Elves of Brithos: that's odd. Maybe visiting remnant White Elves from the Sky Realm? Perhaps that helps explain why his Sky Realm home is in the Celestial Forest ("Doves").

Thread I was thinking of, with lots more "who's Arkat?" ideas:

My understanding was that Ralios major battles vs. Seshnela don't begin until 1624/1625 depending on sources; i.e. after Quinpolic League gone and Boat Planet risen. There was a thread on this earlier that I mined too, for similar reasons. I personally prefer the idea that the 5 Arkats have little to do with the heroes in Dragon Pass; e.g. Harrek is not one of them. There are plenty of interesting local contenders. If Argin Terror isn't the Chaos aspect then I'd be shocked, as he is clearly set up to become a Big Bad (more so than he already is!). I guess Argrath could be Arkat the Destroyer or there could be more than one of those. Personally I feel the Arkats should already have some connection to Arkat or it becomes silly, e.g. anyone can be an Arkat. Of course Arkat could become ~anyone via heroquesting but that is different. Meriatan the Swallow has been suggested as Liberator aspect. Troll aspect would presumably come from / Halikiv Zorakarkat but I don't know who is most likely. See also: Alternative Seshnela-Ralios timeline : https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HeroQuestRPG/11657.html and https://www.pensee.com/dunham/ror/aruzban.html Argin Terror info, as Arkat the ?Deceiver/Devil/Gbaji: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/8076-on-argin-terror-and-tinaros/

Ahh I see where I got the Vadeli-created-Slarges idea: it came from p14 of Tradetalk 13, so it's non-canonical (but I love the article's over-the-top approach). If I were them I'd still try to take credit for creating them, and try to manipulate them (even if not friends) as the slarges push eastwards.

Nice points as always, Joerg. It seems in Dragon Pass, we can pretty much forget about the Vadeli except as cameos and perhaps as minor troublemakers along the southern coasts where there are fellow Malkioni to mess with. I bet the Vadeli have minor connections to the Lunars and Ralzakark, and maybe stronger to Gagix Twobarb since she's more southern. In the far East, I don't know that they have any influence. In the south, I'm not so familiar with what they're up to but it seems to be focused on Fonrit and the demonic/slavery stuff there, and the slarges (which they've been blamed for creating and might ally with?) and like you say the Mostali, to the west. Then in Jrustela they've got their (mostly Brown?) gig going. So aside from the latter stuff that seems to leave the West as the big problem area, as we'd expect. With the Dormal/Navigationalist/Quinpolic power crushed by Seshnelans in 1624/5 I bet they see a nice opportunity, and the Boat Planet could be their sign (and enabler). I'd see them rushing into the power vacuum area there to maximize trouble; making everything harder for everyone. Meanwhile the Arkati are ratcheting up their heroquesting and sabre-rattling vs. Seshnela and that is likely to draw Vadeli attention, especially as the Gate of Banir gets thrown back open and Chaos leaks back into the West ("Chaos Miasma") with the urging of Argin Terror, as Arkat the ?Deceiver/Devil/Gbaji?, and whatever Urcheth is... so I bet there's fun stuff for the Vadeli to meddle with. The Vadeli prospered in the Ice Age so I bet they'd love the flood; maybe even take credit for it? Perhaps commandeering icebergs as undead/slave-crewed battleships? The seas seem like they'll really go bonkers as the Opening ends; and the Dormali wane in influence + Wolf Pirates step aside, distracted by Dragon Pass events? Eventually the Brithini/Waertagi would put their sorcerous feet/fins down and say enough's enough though.

I'm curious how the other major Western seafaring people, the Vadeli, fit into the Hero Wars. Nary a mention of them in most official sources (although in Pamaltela they're surely actively involved). It's hardly a secret that the Red Vadeli are back but the (blue) Boat Planet would make an ideal time for the Blue Vadeli to return and perhaps Vadeli are doing their own sinister ceremonies w/the Boat Planet heroquest; or corrupting others'. Once the Closing is gone and the Navigationalists/Quinpolics are decimated they probably have a great opportunity in Genertela. Ditto with the "rise" of Mostali block-thing by Jrustela; old allies reconnected w/Orange Guild of Jrustela. Thoughts?

The Guide indicates they're coming back to comb the fog for Brithos, then they take a Brithini army to help the Seshnelans defeat the Quinpolic League once and for all (in 1624 IIRC so I think this happens soon after the Boat Planet!); so then they have dominance over the Western seas. Meanwhile the Closing has "ended" and people gradually realize this so I imagine the Waertagi are struggling to suppress contenders for sea dominance, especially vs. the Wolf Pirates (Guide also hints at this; that it's a Waertagi vs. Dormali fight and WPs are in the latter camp). I'd expect the WPs to oppose the Waertagi in the Nochet area since they're around there at that time, having completed the Circumnavigation and Harrek ready to settle scores w/Lunars in that region... I bet first contact is at Brithos. They come sailing back over the edge of the world and that's closest on the western side.

I'm (re)reading the Malazan Book of the Fallen series lately and it has some Gloranthan vibes to it-- not necessarily Iron Age (but alien world), lots of ancient civiilizations/elder races (including a dragonewt-like one), fairly complex gods and magics (some truly epic sorcery etc.), very gritty action.

OK yeah I like that interpretation and others above. If life is a cycle, like Yelm's, and the Boat Planet was there before Time, then from the Young God's perspective perhaps it is just and lawful that the Boat Planet returns again, too.

OK that makes some sense, I had missed the Yelm connection. I haven't the foggiest notion how this relates to the scenario, in which questers oppose powerful Sky realm beings rather than aid them, and how this Young God is hinted at (the way I read it) as being some Big Hero Wars development.

Haha yeah indeed; that Argrath gets around. It's definitely not Dormal; that is noted. It is said to be a "new" god. It does seem that it was intended to be elaborated on in a followup adventure, as it was a momentous event in the scenario.

(Gathering Thunder spoiler, sorry!)

Hi, random Qs from running the Boat Planet/Sky Ship quest in my Western Glorantha game: If you are in the Sky realm, looking up from the Sky River toward the top of the dome, is the 'sky' golden not blue? Arkat has a constellation. Did he "steal" the original star in it from Nysalor/Gbaji?

Options: 1- They might heroquest to bring him back, drawing PCs into that (fun!) 2- Someone rises from within them to fill the void, e.g. Mularik Ironeye-- or from outside. Sir Ethilrist? 3- They fall apart (less exciting) or ask killer to be leader (could be fun) I've never had this happen myself, on that scale.