Godlearner

Great if he can join, but it would be hard. Perhaps some sort of a minor spirit cult.

My issue at the moment is that Daka Fal grants all Common divine to his worshippers. Does that mean that worship of ones clan's ancestors gives the sme access?

What about a merman, can he worship Magasta as an ancestor and gain these spells as well?

What is the specific difference between Ancestor Worship (as described in GoG) and Daka Fal (RQG). Are these two cutls/traditions interchangeble specifically in regard to Rune spells offered?

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sorcery spells are different from Spirit Magic - they act as entities of their own, constructed and controlled by the trained minds of the sorcerer(s).

One symptom of this is how meeting the innate mana resistence of unwilling targets is handled - with Spirit Magic and Rune Magic, the caster's POW has to overcome the resisting POW. With a sorcery spell, the magic points in the construct dedicated to its magnitude are the force overcoming the resisting POW. 

I do not see a difference. Same source different path.

15 minutes ago, Jens said:

Spirit magic is quite different in RQ:G- you’re not learning a spell, you are making a connection with a spirit that you then use to impact the material world

No its the same. The source for all magic is the "mana" which underlines the universe and the Runes which are manifistation of this pure energy. The spirits dampen the flow and channel it into useful form. Rune magic does the same thing by enforcing construct. These are fixed and stable. A bigger bang for your buck so to speak, but at a price of attuning oneself to a limited amount of patters. Sorcery is 'free form' great flexibility, but the caster needs to create the architecture on the fly. Same energy, different paths.

On 11/8/2023 at 12:25 AM, metcalph said:

I always liken sorcery as being best performed with a clear head and knowledge of spirit magic to be under the influence of various intoxicants and narcotics.  

That is one way to look at it, but I see it as an artifical method to limit player character access to magic of different forms. From my understanding, and from what I gathered stated, sorcery, rune magic and spirit magic all come from the same source but use differnt so to speak resistors so that the raw power can be used/manipulated by mortals, who are otherwise to fragile to use it. Therefore, one should not limit the other. If you got the knowledge and the magic points IMO, go for it.

16 minutes ago, Scornado said:

I assume banditry is dishonourable so Humakt is out.

I wouldn't be so sure. Robin Hood anyone?

On 10/18/2023 at 5:55 AM, radmonger said:

The current picture of how sorcery-dominated societies work using the rules is that the _ideal_ is that only Zzabur-caste wizards do magic, and they do so solely to support the rest of society. But everyone (except perhaps the Britihini) is living in a world of scarcity. There simply just aren't enough wizards to bless the crops, awe the kings enemies, shine the soldier's armor and lecture the peasants. So something has to give. Typically this comes down to  having peasants, warriors and sometimes nobles follow standard rune cults. Perhaps under a slightly different name, with some local variation.

No, the current pocture is that most of this society use Spirit and Divine magic while  Zzabur-caste use sorcery above the rest.

19 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

He has a Greatsword, which has the ‘double damage after armour’ Gift (which is frankly broken in my opinion, it just destroys everything) I read through the well of Daliath discussion and it says that while the weapon damage does not affect it any magical damage does. So if Truesword is cast it does 2D8, this is then doubled due to the gift. So average 16 points. He has a tendency to roll well as well. He’s just a lucky bastard. 

The fact that Humakti geases are now random and have been lessened in their severaty is the problem. Under the old rules the geas was "accept no magical healing at all" which prevented most PCs from taking it.

I would also start giving spirits Dismiss Magic, Dullblade, Spirit Screen, etc spells.

9 hours ago, ChrisWentWhere said:

So having run the spirit combat, the Humakti basically destroyed all the spirits very quickly and left the Assistant Shaman thinking ‘ok so wtf am I doing here’.

... and that is why we ignore this rule and not allow magic and weapons to effect spirits, unless they are specifically described as spirit affecting (in which case they usually do nothing to physical targets)

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

Just make it so. This is a freehand to do what you will.

Nah, this is not a go ahead to restructure the entire cult system. Its basically YGWV type thing. I would rather allow Daka Fal God Talker without them being shamans.

15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Look at the Wyter section of the RQ Bestiary, page 173, and add one or more spirit abilities

Nowhere does it say that it gives the Priest or anyone else to get additional Rune spells as though it was a subcult. So basically, your ancestor can be a Wyter following the rules, but you could not get Daka Fal rune magic from it. 

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

Says local on page 287

It also says that it is a Community spirit.

17 hours ago, David Scott said:

Wyters as subcults

This worship is often combined with that of a local cult, such as Orlanth or Ernalda, making the wyter a local subcult of the greater cult.

This is specifically relates to passing magic point. Nothing about getting Rune spells from it. 

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

It doesn't have to be a major cult, it just has to be local.

I think it would be a bit more restrictive than just being local. I can not see this working for Humakt for example, even if the shrine is just down the street. I would say if would have to be a cult that is widely worshiped in the community.

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Raus could easily have ancestor worship as a subcult of the Seven Mothers

An interesting proposition: A user defined subcult ..... I guess that would work for any 'major' cult. 

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

But it almost certainly took a shaman to navigate (at least moderately) safely to that original ancestor, to form the relationship with a specific (Founding/Hero) ancestor.

No, it would be passed down from generation to generation. 

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

You cannot IMHO / IMG use spells like "Incarnate Ancestor" from simple book-learning; you need to know them.

Its Rune magic, no book-learning for any of them.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

another way is to worship your ancestors as a group or only one ancestor (the founder, things like that) then I see it like a wyter: the community is the family and the leader of the family is bound with the wyter (bestiary p174)

then no need of any shaman, even no need of Daka Fal mask. Just be the leader, do the job as any community chief, respect the wyter/ancestor(s) and any requirements requested (here one family wyter may have different requirement than another, gm is free to create what she wants) and the wyter will protect your family

To bind to a wyter implies that one is an initiate, so I would say you still need the Daka Fal mask. I think the idea works, but it still is a more complicated mechanic than to simply allow none shaman Godtalkers of Daka Fal.

27 minutes ago, g33k said:

The spirit world is strange and dangerous.
Not every ancestor is going to be friendly, is going to approve of the way you're acting as head-of-family.

Aso:  just because you're primarily interested in one particular ancestor-spirit, that's no reason to think that a great many other spirits (not necessarily ancestral) might not take interest in YOU.

This is all the caster's choice. Incarnate Ancestor says : 

This spell can be cast without naming the specific ancestor desired, in which case a random ancestor comes. 

I am not sying that there should not be shamans for the Daka Fal, I am saying that it should be possible for a Priest/Godtalker to exist without having to be a shaman.

8 hours ago, metcalph said:

Duke Raus of Rone.  Is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper.  I would have previously said that he was a Carmanian but since then (Cults of RuneQuest: the Lightbringers), there's undoubtedly a native Pelorian tradition that's suitable.  You think that to lead the household, one must be a shaman.  I disagree.  The shaman only leads the spiritual side of the family - for the temporal side, no shamanic status is required.

You are not disagreeing here. We are in total agreement. Duke Raus is the head of his household and an ancestor worshipper. I feel he should be at least a Godtalker of Daka Fal, but there is no reason for him to be a shaman.

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Considering that the Seshnegi have had ancestral worship in practically the first reference, the concept of a shamn-free cult would have been written up by now if it existed. 

Nothing exists until it is created. I see a clear need for a shaman-free ancestor type worship with the head of the house holding a Priest/Godtalker position. 

Why deal with all the other types of spirit that a shaman deals with, if you are only concerned with ones family tree? These skils of Spirit Dance and Spirit Combat are extranious in this type of a situation. Imagine a family run Merchant house whihc traces its roots to the founder, who maybe contacted and may be able to teach some sort of magic or skill which is particular to this family. Why would being a shaman be a requirement for the head of the family?

My quesiton is can one be a Daka Fal Priest or Godtalker without being a shaman.

28 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There have been plenty of RW civilizations in which the nobility practiced shamanism. 

You can make an argument that the concept of aristocracy and heraldry are just forms of ancestor worship and shamanic practices.

1 hour ago, Malin said:

Am I to assume that if you use Heal Wound (with 3 mp), you heal a sword cut on your arm for 3 hp and your total hp for 3 hp? While if you use Heal spirit magic 3, you ONLY regain 3 hp in the location, and none to the total hp?

When you taek damage in a location, your general hit point are also reduced. This type of damage can be healed by Heal, Mend Flesh or Heal Wound spells. If you take damage directly to your general hit points, without damage to a specific hit location you will need either a Heal Body, Accelerate Healing or Healing Trance.

In my mind it boils down to Invisible God and saints (Malkion, Hershal, Dormal, etc) and Ancestor Worship/Spirit Worship (Rune cults). All temples/churches are focused on Invisible God and his saints. Rune cults are are small with not Rune Lord or Priests, are lead by God Talkers and are confined to family/clan/guild.

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Xiola Umbar has no access to Heal Body.

And that is the key