Shiningbrow

Why not just presume that Chalana Arroy's magic and power are sufficient to be able to ensure a standing target merely slumps to the ground, and not falls to take damage?

I mean, we don't always presume real world physics for other situations, do we? So, this is idea perfectly consistent within the game world.

On 3/19/2023 at 1:25 AM, g33k said:

I'm just hoping Chaosium does not make Kralorela into "bad orientalist not-China."   🤨   The pattern whereby we see a bunch of disparate real-world cultures, plus some Gloranthan originality & weirdness, blended into a melange of mostly-not-any-one-thing (looking to Prax, with both "khans" and "braves" (and other nomadic/rider cultures) plus the potent influence of Eiritha priestesses, weird mounts like High Llamas and Rhino's and Bolo Lizards, etc... and the Survival Covenant, with the Morokanth... it just isn't any one real-world culture!).

What I fear is some western-written orientalism that will end up unbearable (TDM fell into that trap, with Mythic Polynesia).

Agreed!

Although, unless a HUUUUGGGEEEE redact of past and present canon occurs, it's going to happen anyway.

I, for one, really dislike the Chinese names on most of Kralorela, along with the stereotypes in place. And I really doubt that's likely to change...

31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm pretty sure "for example, a ship's deck" is supposed to indicate that it has to be on a platform big enough to hold the entire circle. Otherwise what's the point of saying that it's immobile? By that definition, Bladesharp "is immobile" because it can't go from one sword to another.

Precisely!

Speaking of precision, if the spell was supposed to be mobile for something smaller, then the example would be much clearer in what it be cast on to move. Using the ship's deck clearly indicates a large, (relatively) flat surface - not on a helmet or a person. After all, other than a building or wall or tree, what isn't mobile?? (such that it would need to be mentioned in the spell).

This needs to be Q&A'd/WoD'd... especially as to whether the entire Circle needs to fit on one continuous flat surface (eg, floor, carpet, ground, etc), or whether only most of it needs to be on the surface (ship's deck or wagon). Does the Circle even need to be cast on a flat surface?? Or, are we taking 'Circle' too literally?

21 minutes ago, whitelaughter said:

There already is: "if cast on something mobile (for example a ship's deck), the circle moves with it."

A 1-metre circle could be cast on a large shield; 2-metre on a chariot, 3+ on a wagon or carpet.

Firstly, you know it's radius, not diameter - right? So, it'd be a 1m radius, so 2m diameter - much larger than a shield.

But, the bigger issue is having something big enough to move that's actually useful (ie, not merely for only 1-3 people). I don't disagree that there is some movement allowed, but other than on a ship (or maybe a wagon), it's not going to be significantly effective the way the immobile version is.

21 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Just thinking about that particular detail: It seems to me the kiln issue is whether it is a personal asset or a family / guild / community asset. 

It's an efficiency issue: If it is the priest's allied spirit then when the priest dies its gone.  Very inconvenient if indeed you need a spirit of the kiln. In that case you have to hire a shaman to find you a new spirit, or you need a new priest of Gustbran who may or may not get an allied spirit in his first year.  Can you afford to have no kiln spirit for a year?

On the other hand if your kiln spirit is a wyter or simply a fire elemental who likes hanging out there, the family or  community persists, the spirit had several worshippers,  and a new person can take over heading up the relationship with the spirit.

I would have thought just a cult spirit, which could be summoned and bound pretty easily... This may or may not be an elemental with INT and Rune spells...

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There can be good reasons, if we want there to be good reasons.

But you can apply that reasoning to anything, which feels to me like "GM doesn't want player to have more powerful spell" - not "the gameworld doesn't actually support such a spell" (or skill, or ability, or whatever it happens to be).

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

In general, I'm not a fan of creating a spell "just like this other spell, but with a really useful addition and no down side, or one so trivial that it makes the original spell obsolete". If there's a down side to a spell, then some Zzaburi would have probably tried to work around it already. Therefore it's perfectly justifiable to say that there is no easy workaround.

As we've said before, the RQG (and any other book) does not represent the entirety of Glorantha. So, maybe the Zzaburi have got that spell. But, as it currently stands from our current interpretations, LMs may not have yet figured it out yet. Or put it through the ARM. Or whatever reason you want (yep, that above reasoning goes for this as well).

As for any differences in the spell - Obviously, you may want to add a Movement Rune, thus including a higher casting cost (I don't agree with your Stasis bit, because it's not part of the original). It will clearly go from Passive to Active. I don't know if you consider that "trivial" or not, but it's a huge problem for those wanting to use it as a mobile fortress - it really does make the impact really anti-climactic.

Add to that the effects of what happens when that concentration roll is failed... I'd suggest that all those other spells laid on it dissipate. (I think I'll ask @Scotty...)

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't accept the assumption that absolutely everything is possible, or alternatively, easy enough to be worthwhile.

Neither do I.

But I also refuse to accept that something should be difficult or nerfed just because it's powerful or good.

From a purely world-building  perspective, there's no good reason that there shouldn't be a mobile version of this spell. Just as there's going to be Enhance POW.

51 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The rules don't say that.  Perhaps they should, but they don't.  There is no reason why you can't have multiple boosted lores, just as you can have multiple weapons in your possession all with Boon of Kargan Tor cast on them.

Other than... it's an Active spell! So, you'd need to make your concentration roll for each, and then you're limited in what you can do after (taking the max movement rate of 4m as a guide to the limitations).

So, yes, you're right in that it doesn't say that, and therefore 'no reason' other than the above... but it would be sensible. Also, why would one wander around with multiple Lores??

(BTW - BoKT is Passive, so completely different argument! As well as being on different weapons)

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It is possible that the Bagog concept will be different from other cults, since in the RQ2 cult no spirit magic was taught to lay members.(p.34 of Cults of Terror.).

Exactly how do the lay members  get to their suggested Mobiliry or Healing spells?  It must be by Devouring.

I took that to mean that they can't get their spells from within the cult structure. There's no reason they couldn't get spells from a different source (eg, some shaman somewhere).

And, if so, then not only through devouring...

(Granted, this does presume they'd have the knowledge/INT to figure this out.... or even that the spells exist.)

6 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Intensity of 1 lets you cover a unit of archers with Fanaticism and Speedart

How many do you have in your units??? If they're huddled together, then maybe. And I don't think you really want them huddling up.

Also, Speedart is cast upon the missile, not the person. So, RAW, wouldn't work (just as Bladesharp or Bludgeon shoudn't).

55 minutes ago, soltakss said:

An average Scorpionfolk has 1D6 damage, beefier or larger ones easily get 2D6 damage bonuses, which means the average for1D6+2D6+4 becomes 14-15, enough to penetrate iron armour plus Protection 4. Really big ones can get +3D6 damage, punching through iron armour and Protection 4 with ease. Add in extra SIZ or STR from Chaotic Features and you get something that scores a hurting blow each time.

Strength spirit magic spell would be quite nasty here, often giving a +3D6 DB (if not even higher!)

56 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, they can use slings to shoot at enemies, but 8 points of damage isn't a lot against properly protected opponents.

While true, that Special or Crit can still be nasty... and when you've got a dozen slingers firing, there's a reasonable chance to get a Special every round.

Firstly, re: Initiates... I'd give them a higher POW and thus chance of Chaotic Feature - as per Natural Selection. Maybe even slightly higher stats. This is working on the idea that in order to get initiated, they'd need to have survived for a while first, and the stats would be important here.

Secondly, the definition of 'initiate' is one who has Rune spells, as part of the Initiation ceremony and the sacrifice of POW.

For the Lay Members, I'd give them all Speedart, as one of their major roles is slinging. Bludgeon also makes sense (for everyone). Both spells are listed in Bestiary as being typical.

Any RL is likely to have armour scavenged from their victims, so increase the torso AP by a good light scale and above.

There's not really a good reason they shouldn't also be skilled with shields. Or other weapons (although, metal ones would be less likely - except scavenged).

While I like the thinking, the 'platoon' idea is problematic with a species with an average INT of only 7 (although, as per my thoughts on initiates, RLs should probably have a higher INT - again, natural selection). With that INT, I can only imagine that they'd immediately just do whatever is most pro-survival for each individual, and to blindly rush in to attack. There wouldn't be any tactics. Combine this with the Chaoticness of their existence, and there's no way you'd form a coherent platoon or organised formation.

(I have an image of young kids, about grade 3 or 4, as having an INT of about 7... have you ever tried organising a class of them?)

ETA:

I'd also up the % for the Initiates. You say "over 50%", but I'd clarify that to the 70's and higher.

Also, they should probably have their Ironhand cast on their stingers - especially if a more intelligent RL or Initiate. Combined with Venom Boosting, this can really make them challenging! (and then add in the Carapace!!)

I just had a thought, which I put in Munchkinnery thread.

"Now, how to find a way to make this Circle mobile... <snip>

(actually, this is a non-question, because sorcerers can create their own spells, and so could just make a mobile version of it! One simple change would be to make it Active instead of its current Passive.)

On 2/27/2023 at 10:10 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Protective Circle will replicate spell affects on everyone already within a circle, and apply any "attack" spell to anyone entering the circle. This also applies to spirit and rune spells, but the duration is not extended by the circle. So any Rune spell would need lots of Extension, and spirit magic very limited. So how can we abuse it?

Flight. Anyone in the circle can fly! Only within the circle though...

Sword Trance. All our swordsmen are masters!

Shamans. Cast a spirit spell using your Spell Extension power! A spirit spell, maintained on everyone inside, for as long as you want. Fanaticism. Glamour. Protection. Strength. Take your pick. Bladesharp? Not sure... it's cast on a sword, and the spell says "anyone", not "anything".

Crack. All weapons and armour brought into the circle are shattered. But that's instant, I have an open question on the Q&A just now about that.

Bless Pregnancy. Now we're talking! You have to stay in the circle for the entire year, but you could have a dozen pregnant mothers crammed in, all blessed up.

Become (Other Shape). The possibilities are endless. (Ah, damit, that's "self" only, as is Remove (Body Part)...)

Bless Champion. We're all champions in here!

Invisibility.

Maybe Bless Pregnancy and Champion are optimistic, as they are ritual spells. And the Champion one needs a specific kind of ritual... not everyone's into that with multiple participants...

Impede Chaos.

Now, how to find a way to make this Circle mobile... And walk through the Footprint...

(actually, this is a non-question, because sorcerers can create their own spells, and so could just make a mobile version of it! One simple change would be to make it Active instead of its current Passive.)

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also remember to take into account the casting time and MP cost of the spells that you lay onto the circle. Sure, if it's rune magic then that's pretty quick, but it requires you to have a mixed sorcery and rune magic group.

While you do have to take them into account, I don't think it's worth bothering about as a pro/con for this spell, as those spells were likely to be cast anyway... except now they're affecting a much larger number of people.

So, in this week's edition.. .the new kid didn't show! Great!!!

However, my 3 other Y6 kids are annoying me, cos they're not really focussed on what's going on. Granted, their warrior-type characters haven't been drawn into this type of situation, although the one playing Vasana most certainly could have... if he actually was interested enough.

I think I'll kick them out after next week. (I've already been advised by 2 teachers that they aren't great kids to have around).

The CA tried to Sleep the Great Troll - but failed the roll casting 😞  (I am still doing basics so that they get used to the system, so no fudging)

However, no weapons were drawn, no fighting, and I allowed the guards to let the CA, Ernaldan and LMs to sleep it off in their own temples, but the fighters and Vishi were in the cells with the trolls (Vishi because I said he was an unknown in this town). They were given the opportunity to talk to the trolls, which they flatly refused.

So, now we're in the next day's trial...

Maybe Arachne Solara has a way to remove the taint?

19 hours ago, whitelaughter said:

Yeah, that makes the spell utterly broken; with no weakness to the spell, possession of it assures victory in every battle.

The only way to block it is by using incompatible 'defensive' spells - take out the Shield spell that is over everyone by using a boosted Spirit Block to override it. And as you've pointed out, need to be in the circle to do that. And getting close when warrior in the circle is under powerful spells? Good luck with that.

Noooo..... Powerful? yes. Broken? No. Utterly broken? Not at all.

Sure, it seems good at first sight, but then you just need to do the maths...

This is one spell that really needs to have all 3 Manipulations to work. Without the Intensity, it's not going to be very strong, and thus nor will any other spells cast upon it. So, just there, minimum of 6 point to be even vaguely useful (for a Shield 3, for example), and you probably want another 2-4 points on top of that.

Next, you need to increase the size of it, or again, not much is going to happen with it. This is calculated as 1/10th its Range... so, no manipulation gets you only 1m radius. Realistically, you want at least a 5m radius (4 points), maybe more depending on who you want in it.

Next, the spell is immobile, unless you've got something that allows a 5m+ radius circle to move. (Unless GM rules that only the initial caster needs to be on the vehicle.. which I would doubt). So, great, you'll have a powerful defensive circle that can't be moved - while enemy forces in a battle can move away from...

Which leads us to real range - of other spells. Spirit magic spells only go 50m, and Rune magic to 160m... Which is reasonable for most battles, but if the enemy is mobile, and you're not, does become problematic. Sure, you have your other Sorcery spells (or do you?), but they'll take more range to cast ... 160m is already 7 points of your manipulations...

How long do you want it to last? If you're looking at large-scale pitched battles, you want 6 hours (7 pts). Ok, if it's only for a short skirmish, then you might only want 1 or 2 points in it (up to 20mins) - but it's still points taken away from the others.

So, calculating all of that - 8 (Strength) + 4 (radius) + 2 minimum (duration) = 14 MPs for a basic Protective Circle to allow any spells up to 8mps equivalent to be cast on it, for everyone within a 5m radius (15-20 people with arm space, none lying down) for 20 mins... who can't move out of the Circle without losing the protections on it. Which also means all those people within it make for a great target!

Alternatively, if you are only looking at a quick skirmish, then casting time becomes a HUGE factor. Realistically, it's going to be a good 30 seconds or more just to get this Circle in place... and that's assuming those attacking you haven't noticed you standing there alone chanting like made for all that time, and left you alone. Like all sorcery, it's a huge time sink to fail (and it's going to take a LONG time to get this spell's skill level high enough to be very certain it's going to take*. That's pretty risky in any battle!

(*ok, you could maybe get a fairly high starting percentage if you chose that one and only** at character creation - 30% Occupation + 25% Personal Bonus + maybe another 15 from Stats = 70%, plus maybe a attuned item for 10-20% if you're very lucky. And if you're doing this, are you going to then put up other other spells yourself, or are you expecting... nay, requiring... other people to provide those spells? If it's yourself, then what are the chances of being able to cast them onto it? Cos, again, that skill percentage isn't going to be great, and you've just spent a while casting your Circle, and just done yourself out of a pile of MPs.)

(**Otherwise, it's only +10% for Occupational skill)

So, my reading of this spell - very handy in keeping your command post, healers, or mages safe (probably), but that's about all. It's not a reliable game changer. (I could definitely see its use in something like the Cradle scenario - but that's quite a difference scenario compared to most others, and the players would need to have some idea about what's coming. The armies of the Western lands would use it regularly and effectively, but again, not the thing that wins their battles.

On 3/19/2023 at 2:55 AM, Joerg said:

This spell should be banned from Humakti duels ... as it basically means a victory for the duelist able to pour the most magic points into the spell.

Rubbish!

Any decent Sword Trance is going to take a round or 2 before it takes effect, and that's more than enough time to get in a hit, especially if you allow spells cast by spirits. Even a simple Befuddle is going to make that Sword Trance obsolete.

And, as @PhilHibbssaid, Dismiss works wonders! (Can you Dismiss a Rune spell while it's still charging up??)

A 1-pt Disrupt is much more likely to go off well before a Sword Trance, and and even a Shield (with a few points... and you're not putting up a 2-pt Shield for this sort of duel).

Even a thrown dagger is a quick way to end a duel.

(I agree with banning Sever Spirit, but I would presume that's almost always banned anyway... except for those rare duels to the death because the opponent is really evil)

18 hours ago, svensson said:

The duel will be public; to do otherwise is to commit secret murder.

I don't get this... especially since most duels aren't to the death. There would be nothing wrong with a non-public duel.

9 hours ago, ChrisJ said:

With a number of MP matrix or spirits to draw MP from that week's downtime can be a matter of days, which is similar to that of Rune Priests recovering RP.  Still the sorcerer isn't letting off lightning bolts on SR1, a modest sorcery spell takes a few rounds to cast (and often at a lower % than a Rune Spell).

Precisely!

Sorcery is great - if you're patient and a plan ahead type of person.

It totally sucks if you want great power in the thick of things.

Not only due to casting time, but also because you're most likely to have quite low chances of casting... the majority of PCs aren't going to have even onespell that can be cast at the same percentage as the lowest of Spirit or Rune magic spells.

OTOH, once you've gone on a HQ to get your new, fandangled "Inspiration" Rune Spell*, that doubles your INT for 2 POW (basically, the INT version of Charisma, Bear's Strength, etc), you're rocking! (once or twice a season :p) Add to that the Inscriptions, and the POW-Enhancing crystal (that can be increased through further HQs), and you're well on your way to taking over a small section of the lozenge!

(I think I'll start a new thread about this...)

On 3/15/2023 at 8:08 PM, Enthar said:

Moonfire is an amazing spell, too bad its gated behind Moon rune.

I wouldn't stress too much about that. It should be relatively common and easy to acquire.

The spell, however, is a vastly different story, and there's not really a good reason to make that easily available... and even if they tried to come up with it themselves, there's not really a good explanation for how a character would even think of it - unless they've seen one in use.

I just got informed about 2 hours ago... another Y6 kid wants to join...

ai ai ai .......

19 hours ago, Enthar said:

I concur, a melee focused Sorcerer who takes a week to cast season long buffs and then wades into combat can be a formidable foe.  It is just not the character type she wants to play.  It isn't so much effectiveness she is after (although I assure you, she is perfectly capable of munchinking the heck out of things), but style.

Fair enough.

Just a thought...

18 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am counting at least 2 Techniques and 6 Runes. With most spells costing more than base to cast due to Insight. 

I presume you're including the new Sorcerer's Shield in that list... otherwise, it's only 1 Technique (Summon (or Command)), and perhaps 3 Runes (Death, and 2 Elements (the third is Inferred). Even with SS, it's only an extra 2 Runes (assuming Movement is required).

Sure, it's really going to hit on the the MPs, but it's do-able.