Shiningbrow

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

maybe

however...

how did it happen ?

because depending on the reason, I'm not sure the clan will allow your guy to keep the gear

- is there any wergild for the "victim" ? who will pay ? is the gear just enough to cover the wergild ?

- was this fight a decision of your guy ? If yes, well there is a social mobility, but maybe as outlaw 😛

- was your guy expected to work elsewhere when it happens ? So why was he/she there ? If there is no political issue (like above), the boss may require all the gear as compensation, maybe more

- was your guy working when it happened and he/she saved courageously the boss wealth ? nice, a reward, however he/she is paid to work... so the gear is for the boss, right ? (something like the mercenary contracts)

- was your guy part of raid party / defense / .. anything decided by the clan (so something totally good, brave guy !). Well the gear is for the clan, and the clan ring will decide to manage the distribution.. A part for wergild, a part for the best warriors and leaders, a part for the boss, and maybe congratulation for your guy !

 

Note that I consider the stickpicker as a member of a clan social organisation (and of course, for me as you can see my answer, a clan organisation will do all its possible to no let a poor become rich . Because... if anyone can become rich just with one fight, who will work for the rich ?).

Of course if it is an adventurer without boss/contract, or a bandit without ... boss/contract, it is different. In both cases, a very poor adventurer / bandit may become a richer adventurer  / bandit but without any clan's help / law to protect from the family / clan / temple revenge or even local authorities appreciating to "defraud" the strangers

 

 

Oh, very very true!

I was thinking in defence of the stead, as part of a fyrd.

However, no reason why one couldn't go along as part of a 'sanctioned' raid (although, without better weapons, less likely unless someone decided either numbers were more important, or the stickpicker knew something they didn't).

You've made me consider something else... killing and looting a bandit! (not that it's likely to help much :p)

39 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm also not sure this is sufficient in itself - what the land and ox-team means is that you're fundamentally self-sufficient and not relying on anyone else. It's not just the weapons. KoS: " To qualify, a man must have a whole ox‑team and a plow, and he receives as much land as he can plow in two seasons: about 80 acres total. Carls are also expected to own a minimal set of military equipment, and use it to defend the community whenever the chief says to."

Oh, I agree (largely).

But it's one step up from mere stickpicker or dregs of society.

It gets the individual noticed, and that in itself can be enough. If a stickpicker is willing to risk their life, and shows some ability to help, the clan, then they could be moved onto a farm to then be part of a tenant's crew (for example).

On 7/6/2023 at 9:50 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Possession of the equipment necessary to stand in the fyrd battle line is what gives men and Vingans the electoral franchise.  At the most basic level this is a medium or large shield,  spear, and some kind of helmet.  Obviously body armor helps one survive so it is highly advisable though not compulsory.  Anyone who can afford to and does buy these, is in. They can vote.  It's not hereditary.  Anyone who does not have these is not going to be assigned land.

Just on that - remember that for most GMs and Players, if a stickpicker happens to kill someone, then they may well get the gear as a reward, instantly elevating them a bit. And since a pointed stick can still kill (or maim sufficiently to take captive for a ransom), I can see this happening with reasonable regularity.

And, facing down a well-armed and armoured foe with just a pitchfork takes some nerve, so a reputation is built up, and social mobility should ensue.

13 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

IMG yes they do, because my game is GAME centric. People, intellegent beings, see cause and effect and make deductions based on observations. 

What about the numeric value of variable spells? How do they deal with that? (or, is it not necessary?)

Also, what I would consider a fairly obvious question - how would any Gloranthan know they need to use, say, a Heal 3 rather than just a Heal 2 (assuming they had higher than Heal 2)?

6 hours ago, g33k said:

But IMG, sometimes the player's choice of Cult is not the character's choice/intention, per se...  They had another plan.

This!!

Which is pretty much what I was trying to get at - players have this idea, but in-world, isn't that likely. However, we can all make up a backstory that could justify anything, really... want a half-dragonewt, half-mistress race troll - no problem! It was part of the dragonewts 'experience' in order to gain karma, and the troll needed to forge an alliance for some reason.

6 hours ago, g33k said:

So one doesn't have to create the prior trauma to justify a Cult choice.

Nooooo.... but one normally doesn't enter into Babeester Gor, the Avenger, lightly. Without the trauma, the only way I can reasonably make sense of it (which probably shows my lack of imagination) would be if they were born into the cult. But then, you'll lose Yinkin... (well, maybe not! Perhaps she got sick and tired of city life, and went out on her own into the forests and hills for a while).

6 hours ago, g33k said:

To the degree that a "Cult" in RQ has some parallels to a "Class" in D&D (and some parallels are there!) I think multiple cults  are  kinda like multiclassing.  But realize there's nothing in Glorantha that correspond's to a "one-level dip" or similar careful "builds" in D&D/PF/etc -- you're only in the Cult so long as you keep living up to the ideals (or at least legitimately trying-to).

Well, that's the point. If your character is 'dipping' into a cult just for the spells, then it's basically the same as a 1-3 level dip in D&D - especially if the cults aren't all that compatible (e.g., Babeester Gor & Odayla). There should be a *strong* religious reason for joining a cult to Initiate level (Lay Membership would be normal). After all, even though both Orlanth and Ernalda are hugely important in Sartar, most people only actually initiate into one of those, and remain at Lay level for the other.

(remember that other than the Rune Spells, associated cults can get skills and spirit magic cheaper, and friendly cults would just have easy access to them. So, your BG could still get training in either - for a reasonable price. So that begs the question - other than getting one's hands on Identify Scent, what's the actual reason for joining Yinkin?? (presuming that's the secondary cult). As @Rodney Dangerduck suggested, just give them a matrix... which is no problem, as the book is merely a guide! That's their heirloom...)

So, yes, your "legitimately trying to [live up to the ideals]" is really important.

6 hours ago, g33k said:

Detect Enemies won't spot someone who just wants to escape from the suddenly-revealed Axe Sister... they don't want to attack her, they want to be as far away as possible!!!

Then just add in Detect Oathbreakers (or whatever you're going for) -either Rune or Spirit (or both!!)

6 hours ago, g33k said:

I'm thinking of this B.Gor a bit like the wandering marshal of the Old West... coming into town, looking for the criminal...

But is the stead big enough for two of them??? That's the really important question here!

I don't see the need for dual initiation. And I don't see any reason why you couldn't just start with a hunter occupation, but have Babs as the chosen cult - just create a background (not hard - perhaps one of the character's parents suffered - rape would be the obvious route, although some sort of oathbreaking which led to real hardship also works - and the daughter feels the need for revenge).

TBH, for me, the dual initiation thing for this just rings a bit too much like a D&D multiclassing. Especially since neither Yinkin nor Odayla really lend themselves to the manhunter/bountyhunter archetype.

As for the mention of LM and hunting, a sorcerer with Geomancy would be extremely useful in such a band of vigilantes.

17 hours ago, soltakss said:

I play that Shamans can belong to a Spirit Tradition that allows them to pool their spirits together. So, a Shaman belonging to the Blue Pool Spirit Tradition could gain spells from Frog Woman, Bluegloom, or River Horse, as they are water spirits, but Blue Pool Rune Points can be used to cast any of the spells of the Spirit Lords in that tradition.

 

While I get the basic premise, I'm a lot more confused about what would be considered a 'tradition' (or, as per @David Scott's "culturally shared".

Could that include spirits that are opposed or hostile to each other?  Does it include propitiary worshipped spirits?

However, in response to what others have said, and in particular @Squaredeal Sten, you can HQ to get immortality, plus resurrection, and probably also instant healing... and there are ways to tap into the worship of mortals, such that you can get powers.

So. there's not much of a greater benefit to apotheosis - except maybe being able to be in many places at once.

Have we seen/read 1984??

I'm getting that sort of feeling now 😛

10 hours ago, Jens said:

Chalana Arroy forbids Initiates the use of Tap and Offensive Spells. so conversely allows all other sorcery spells. However, the cult does not teach any sorcery spells; no sorcery spell teaching, no Cult Sorcerers

I would doubt that last bit is true, at least as a cult-wide (temple-wide) statement.

I think that it would be necessary for there to be some teaching of sorcery at some temples and by some cultists - there's too many good possibilities in sorcery for there not to be (think spells like Protective Circle* to create a large, relatively safe healing environment), as well as the possibility of large AoE heal spell (i.e., Accelerate Healing cast on every temple/hospital). And given the nature of the cult, I could see CA temples trying to teach as many initiates as possible to do this (or at least, have a strong divide between the spirit magicians and the sorcerers).

(*I'm not seeing a reason why a Heal 6 - or even Heal Body - cast on the circle itself wouldn't have full effect on everybody inside... no???)

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There absolutely must be ways to control population growth ("silphium", but also preventing pregnancy, or maybe spells) because no society can survive a tenfold growth every generation.

Agreed, but i wonder who would supply that spell...? I can't see Ernalda going against her most primal instinct, and it doesn't seem right for either the Maiden or the Crone. Babeester Gor maybe? Maran Gor??

15 hours ago, Ironwall said:

I must point out they still harvest by hand, not to mention all the small tasks that are still important in a agrarian bronze age society that need to be done. Families are likely larger than an average family in a modern industrial society by a decent margin. Also considering that most women are in the ernalda cult thiers is probably a social and religious pressure to have large families.

I wouldn't agree with this too much - slightly larger families, maybe. Look at our current farming culture in industrialised areas (which, granted, aren't the same), but given the high rate of people living into their teens, I would think most families would only have 3-4 kids, with 5-6 being unusually large.

Also remember that farming is much more communal, and extended families will work together (and live close by).

18 hours ago, Scotty said:

I've updated my reference list and published it here as RQG Cults allowing Sorcerers or Shaman.

Thanks Scotty, this is great!!!

I'm lost though - what's the actual difference with

Sorcerer Initiates

• Not forbidden: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere.
• Yes, but No Cult Sorcerers: there is no sorcery teaching within the cult and it must be sought elsewhere

They say the same thing! (other than the IO bit after the second)

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

If a cult has shaman-priests, I would say that a shaman who joins that cult cannot progress to being a priest.

The rules don't specifically say this, but I think it makes sense. Becoming a shaman within the cult's tradition is to become a priest. If you've already become a shaman under a different tradition, then you can't do it again. You already awoke your fetch, gained whatever abilities that tradition gave you, and forged relationships with powerful spirits.

I'm inclined to disagree with some of this.

Firstly, if you can be a shaman-priest, then I don't see why a shaman can't become a priest later.

And to address your other reasoning (which is caveated), any shaman who is going to join a cult and advance to that level is going to be part of a tradition that closely aligns with the new cult - e.g., Kotaling shamans joining Orlanth.

Now, if one comes from quite a different tradition, then sure, they shouldn't be going further up the ranks past basic initiate. But if they aren't, then I don't see the issue. After all, I can definitely see a shaman venturing out to meet up with Orlanth himself in the winds (or at least his kids), and that suggests Wind Voice to me.

And, it's been said that it's perfectly fine for an initiate to join spirit societies.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Of course, once known (script + spell) few will spend (waste ?) time to make it easier for collegues 🙂

I don't agree with this point. I think scholars do actually want their works to be available and easier for colleagues. After all, that's what scholars and academics do in this world, and there's really not that much difference in this situation. (not too easy, of course - you still have to be an academic to understand it... it's just not for the riff-raff.. which wouldn't matter anyway, given the rest of the training needed)

34 minutes ago, davecake said:

I agree - but it's not just a matter of 'not in the curriculum'. They generally are very hard to find in translated form. Want to go an learn a bunch of celestial sorcery? Sure, we have a Buseri grimoire that explains it. You are going to have to learn Dara Happen though. Translate it into Theyalan? Why would an LM Sage do that, when it has no magical benefit to them (they obviously can already read Dara Happan)? Information about many areas of sorcery can be found in the archives of LM temples - but mostly written in Western. Sometimes Auld Wyrmish, or Dara Happen, or Kralorelan. And trying to find training to Master the Fire rune, or Illusion or Sea rune in a LM temple? 

For most LM temples, I agree. However, in the much larger ones - especially in Nochet - that's not going to be the case. I would imagine quite a number learning about sorcery as their specialisation, and will either know those languages, or have Logician'ed it*, and perhaps even translated into Theyalan. It is, after all, knowledge!

I would also imagine that those runes you mention are also trainable in Nochet.

So, next question - which is the whole point of this thread - where else? Jonstown should have a few people...

(*need a ruling on learning stuff while using Logician and Total Recall)

38 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would like to create, following the rqg process an adventurer (human) initiate of ZZ.

As I can't buy the rqg darkness cult book for some time, have got few questions:

- is it possible to have the Cult Starting Skills ?

- is there any specific restriction to join the cult (when your parents are or when you have no relative) ? (at least for a human) . In my FR "dieux de glorantha" or FR "Trolls", you need 75+ in any mace/hammer/... and a POW+STR test to become initiate. Which is hard to modelize with the creation process.

 

You know that ZZ is in the Bestiary??

You need 75% in any blunt weapon (should be easily doable as a warrior - although you'll probably need to use +25% from personal bonuses, as no culture in RQG has blunt weapons), and an initiation test - (Average of Cha & Str) x5 (no, not POW as you have).

As a pretty violent and bloodthirsty cult, I can see why having parents or others wouldn't matter to join the cult - you have to prove your worthiness yourself.

Cult skills are also listed... Intimidate, Shield, "smashing" weapon, plus the others that everyone gets.

Ah... Jaja hit save just before I did 😛

25 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The priestesshood part was to establish a minimum.  It is not a book requirement for Adventurers, but would be a basic expectation for a temple priestess, for reasons I gave.

But most of my discussion was directed toward treating the NPCs more like real people, rather than attempting to minimize possession of BP for reasons of efficiency in..,what?

 

This is why I think there should be more sub-cults. There is quite a variation within Ernalda worship such that some priestesses wouldn't need to have it, such as the HQ Ernalda the Queen. (just as Orlanth Rex doesn't need to have Lightning).

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It seems to me that any Ernaldan with ambitions for the priestesshood should get Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops.  They seem so basic to Ernalda and have guaranteed demand.  And anyone else who wants them, like that midwife, will expect the priestess to know and teach them.  So that establishes a mininum.

But I don't think you should use that minimum in upur game if you want it believable or "realistic" .  Whatever that means in a fantasy game.  Why?

Beyond that, consider that a even a stead with a longhouse and extended family should provide for more than one pregnancy a year.  This is a society that is 1/3 children!  Some years the stead may not have any but other years they may have 2 or 3.

Therefore a clan of about 800 with about. 200-220 women if childbearing age will need many more Ernaldans with Bless Pregnancy than just the clan priestesses.  240 children under 16 implies 15 births a year at steady state. More if you have child mortality or are making up for the Great Winter.  How much child mortality? An answer to that is necessary if you want a better Bless Pregnancy estimate.

Next consider that an Ernaldan with BP may not want to have it perpetually in use and tightly scheduled.  That limits her other magic use.  Her family has crops and Injuries too.  She even sees a husband off to war, too often in the Hero Wars.  And it is not smart to have no RP reserve.

I certainly agree with same of the logic here, but I think we should also consider that being an Initiate means a sacrifice of 1 POW, and therefore it only takes another point to have a basic Bless Pregnancy... as you said, only about 15 or so needed per year - so 15 initiates (spread out over those 200-220 women).

The only thing I would question is whether those with BP are actually intending to head towards the priestesshood... and I don't think that's a requirement. Being a temporary midwife's assistant would be enough.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As previous editions of RuneQuest. It wasn't an issue then either.

But the change in POW/RP economy changes this significantly. As does the change in spell selection.

Previously, when you sacrificed your POW to get a Rune/Divine spell, it was likely to be One-Use, and you were getting one and one only spell.

Now, you're getting indefinite usage of your POW sacrifice, and you get not only the one spell you want, but another dozen or so handed to you for free.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As before, the limiting factor is available POW / Rune points.

No so limiting when, as above, you automatically get a dozen 'free' spells along with your specialty one... and have it very reusable.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

You will still likely have to send your adventurer to bigger temples where the sub cult exists as not all Minor temples have all the subcults, and while a greater has several, it still doesn't have all of them.

This needs to be made so incredibly clear...  how many new players are going to know how widespread X temple is, and what subcults are worshipped there??? (for each cult where this is relevant?) And, how about Ernalda? Currently, no sub-cults there...

On 6/15/2023 at 6:21 PM, Akhôrahil said:

In some places (not Dragon Pass), Lightning specifically is a bit restricted, as it belongs to a/the Four Weapons subcult, and not everyone gets in there.

This would be an easy way to somewhat limit lightning. 

It’s kinda fascinating that among Orlanth worshipers, even the average Vargast doing farming or herding might break out a pretty lethal Thunderbolt or 3-point Lightning if provoked or attacked.

It seems to me that the whole sub-cults thing is getting really stripped back to only a couple.

And in doing so, makes the availability of those specialised spells so much more open. This is not a good thing, IM(ns)HO.

On 6/11/2023 at 9:53 AM, Joerg said:

While that is true, I am still waiting for some of the semi-sorcerous cult descriptions to make sense of how RQG intends to cover spells like Open Seas for non-sorcerers, or how the special magics of Pavis and Flintnail are supposed to work under that regime.

Outside of RQG, there might be more room for "misapplied sorcery".

While editiing Ian's manuscripts for the new Pavis material, I suggested a variant of sorcery which could be used by non-sorcerers.

Basically, just a fully memorised invocation that does one thing, and one thing only. It can't be manipulated by them in anyway, and so all variables are fixed. It's still not easy to cast, and that's why it has its own skill percentage.

Currently, Ian's put them in the 'for later consideration' pile.

15 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

Which is saying about 1 person a stead would have it.  Sort of makes sense to me if you think of it that way. In the pre-industruial real world, midwives were specialised too.

I'd imagine two people... the older, wiser midwife, and the younger apprentice who is learning the trade.

19 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree with you, there is no reason to not bless everyone... if it were so easy (aka imo where we have a disagreement is the rune pool - pc & exceptional npc vs anyone - )

 

but in another way, as RQG describes that the characteristics depend on the homeland...  -example Bisons-.

If it were so easy, the RQG should say that, in Sartar, Esrolia, Old Tarsh, characters have a +1 in a characteristic of player's choice. That's not the case 🙂

 

so the issue is in my opinion that you are wrong (with all my respect, I m not sure of the "strength" of my words) to consider rqg creation rule as unnamed npc (= population)

 

--> there is no legit question between before and after great winter, if you consider creation rules are only dedicated to "hero" and potential "associates"

--> there is no creation rule issue (aka my +1 charac in any ernaldan location), if you consider creation rules are only dedicated to "hero" and potential "associates"

 

for me the original issue we share and try to manage (in different ways)  is that initiate status allows now (rqg) reusable magic and that any adult is initiate.

the impact then is very important. (but only for those who ask themselves a lot of questions, I m pretty sure a lot of gm and players don't care !)

The issue is how the rules + background answer to the game design choices :  players must be able to cast rune spells again and again. That is the most important point. The answer was to say initiate have rune pool and can cast again and again.

Is it the best answer ? Yes because it is simple, and enough for most players and gm.

A better "mathematic" answer may be :

"considering a new intermediate status for pc and powerfull people:

- a standard initiate is as before, sacrificing pow to cast one use spell

- pc, exceptional initiates, priests, rune lords, etc... sacrifice pow for rune pool, and use rune pool again and again to cast spell, as raw "

that's solve everything: most ernaldan cannot use bless pregnancy every hour (yes it is a provocation 😛 ), just very happy few.

But that provides another issue (how to explain this status ? how can i get it ? etc..) so a lot of words for anyone when only few people need them

One of the things that affects this is the idea that if you sacrifice a point of POW for a Rune Point, you automatically get a new Rune Spell - and it's implied that you can choose any from the list available (in a major temple... obviously, more limitations the smaller the holy place).

I think this should be restricted.

And, perhaps payment should be necessary - especially for the more specialist spells. Bless Crops - cheap. Bless Pregnancy - more expensive.

It would also take care of the "every Orlanthi has Lightning" issue... if Lightning became more difficult to acquire.

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think we're arguing different things - my point is that there's little reason any Heortling pregnancy should go unblessed. It's better if there's an expert at it, but if there isn't, then it can be easily fixed by personal sacrificing.

Then my apologies....

 I was reading

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

who wouldn't want to spend a point of POW for it and have one more Rune Point forever afterwards (including for later pregnancies)? The reward seems overwhelmingly stronger than the cost. 

differently than intended (or, without the strength of the preceding "

22 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, it might be preferable if someone else casts it

" bit....)

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I can't imagine how anyone would want to go through a non-Blessed pregnancy when it's readily available. Even today, avoiding "any of the pains and sicknesses of
her condition" and "during childbirth, she suffers only mild pangs and can control the timing of the birth" seem like they would be strong selling points, and multiply that several times over for bronze age medical conditions when the risk of death for both mother and child is severe. The cost of locking up one Rune Point for most of a year seems almost negligible. Yes, it might be preferable if someone else casts it (so that you don't have to learn it), but if that's not available, who wouldn't want to spend a point of POW for it and have one more Rune Point forever afterwards (including for later pregnancies)? The reward seems overwhelmingly stronger than the cost. 

I think your first line is important here...

Sure, everyone  would want a Blessed Pregnancy. But that's a vastly different idea to who would or should sacrifice to get the spell.

Following your logic, and everyone getting the spell, we should ask "how many times will that spell get used?", and the answer is probably in the realms of only 2 or 3 times in their entire life. Probably less, because someone else in the household would do the casting (remember, we should expect about 70% of all adult females to be Ernaldans).

This then means, the spell is wasted for the vast majority of the time, and for the vast majority of the people.

So... should there be at least one member of a family who has the spell? Again, I don't think it makes sense for this, as once one member of a family has it, then it's unlikely to still get cast except for every few years.. maybe only a few times in each generation.

So, how many times would it be cast per clan? How many kids are getting born each year? And that's the actual answer. A clan apparently has about 30% children, so even a large clan of 1000 people will have 300 kids - i.e., under the age of (let's say) 15. That's an average of only 20 kids per year. Which means - you only need 20 people of the 300 or so Ernaldan initiates needing to cast the spell per year.

And so, the sacrifice to get it is wasted for the approx 280 Ernaldan initiates remaining..... (and that's still presuming 1 spell-casting per individual)