Shiningbrow

I think it depends on what you want them to do/see. And what the priority is. It also depends on what year, and how popular they're going to be in certain regions.

I disagree with your 'obvious' route... too much 'overland'. Although there's going to be obvious trade routes, they're less well defended, meaning more chance of combat.

But, it also depends on whether they want to spend money or not (ie, tolls and/or passage).

According to the Guide, the Tangle is virtually impassable, so that's really not an option (although you could get through the marsh, if you can convince the Newtlings to help out somehow). So, at best, you're either taking the boat across Mirrorsea to Karse, and then the roads. One advantage to this - they get to see the Block!!!

If I was doing it - I'd go north up the Creek-Stream, and then onto the King's Roads from Duck Point eastwards to Boldhome.. then decide to keep going further east to Swenstown, or since you're already that far north, via Herongreen, and back onto another major road. This route would be the safest - but most costly (other than the boat to Karse). Roads also mean greater speed! And nicer overnight stops. And less midges. The CA is going to prefer this route - and is more likely to be given various honours on the way, making their trip somewhat more pleasant than the SBs 😜

Of course, you could instead cut back south from, say, Blackwell, and then around the Stormwalks....

Frankly, I think the difference is fairly obvious... Jonstown.

It's got the largest library outside of Nochet, and one of the largest healing temples anywhere... putting those two together gives you a social culture that is vastly less inclined to going to war (ie, finding peaceful resolutions). Less war, less need for warriors.

It's also been mentioned above, that with having a large city like Jonstown, you have a larger emerging middle class based around crafts & trade, rather than around agriculture. So, having a higher proportion of crafters and traders (as well as administration) is going to have a lower rate of militia (although, also more likely to have a better trained and equipped militia/military).

"Honourable" occupations like healer or scribe are greatly revered and preferred, and so the local tribes and clans will be more likely to produce such people (improve social standing, and possibly wealth - especially since those sons and daughters are more likely to survive than those out on the farms, and thus would be required to send money back home), and such attitudes in general. Compared to the warlike Coiymar, who are far more likely to want their people to be more aggressive. Also, if Colymar lands are more rural/agriculture, there's going to be more to have to fight off, and so more people just generally capable of fighting.

And then, don't forget that Delecti is just around the corner, and every so often the undead wander out and need fighting off.

Although the RQG occupations are more directed towards creating better than average citizens, I still think some aspects relate to the rest of the people in a meaningful way. And, in that respect, I'm looking at the base incomes. Rural occupations are only bringing in 40-80L per year, whereas the lowest of the urban occupations (not including bandits/thieves) is 60, and goes up to over 100L (not including occupations such as nobles and priests - although, assistant priests are obviously going to be paid well no matter where they are). Also, urban occupations are far less susceptible to the vicissitudes of nature (because they can source materials from other regions if necessary). So, for the average rural worker, the smart thing to do is to invest in their children's education - not their ability to fight of wolves (or trolls, or broo) - nor have to pay for the upkeep of weapons and armour. If you can't afford to have your kids learn to read and write, then you try your damnedest to get them apprenticed to some crafter, or a hanger-on to a merchant (starting as the gopher), or even a Donander troupe. And, from there, earn enough money to move the family to the city. This logic reflects the real world...

Sorry I'm late, but...

I would have said Chaos (old, boring but true...).

After all, the Devil is currently buried "in" Ernalda, just down the road under the Block. Similarly, apparently his eye is also basically buried in 'her'... maybe something would happen with such a ceremony so close at hand...

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Tapping Darkness might be problematic - there is only one orthodox Malkioni/Brithini school of sorcery able to deal with the special energies of Darkness (and Arkati troll sorcerers would not tap their native element, ever).

While I wouldn't disagree with the last bit (entirely), it does go back to the original question posed - what is 'tapping' actually? Is it complete destruction? Or is it a temporary altering of state?

When one 'Tap(s) Breath' and the Air gets converted to MPs, does that completely remove that 'air' (whatever that actually is!) from the universe? Or, as more Air rushes in to 'replace' it, does it only get transformed temporarily - and, ultimately, (like here on Earth) is all 'matter' only a form of energy (in this case, MPs?) Or, is something else going on? (This, largely, would be beyond the typical Gloranthan - and even sorcerers (although, I imagine the GLs would have been thinking this - perhaps even theorised it!) But it would mean - you're not destroying your own native element - merely converting it for your own purposes...)

And, with respect to Darkness (or Moon, or Light...), once it's been tapped, does the surrounding element get sucked in the same way that it does for Air? What about Earth or Water? Does that mean a more diluted element? Or, for some of the others at any rate, is there now a semi-(totally?)permanent thin spot?? If not, then it sort of implies a constant creation is at work, and 'tapping' sort of becomes quite irrelevant (not unlike if we use - or not - solar or wave energy - not using it goes to waste).

Leaving an empty spot actually makes more sense in this light (taking the pun!)

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Fixed, thanks. You can override the values manually.

NW.

Which cell for the over-ride? Cos I did that in Z5.. .and it didn't work... (I'm guessing a couple of others on that line, but that would be removing a formula, and that may stuff up things along the way later). But, now that it's fixed, it don't matter no-more 😁

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most nonhumans don't (have a culture), I think it's baked into the base skill values.

I did see that they auto-populated as altered base skills. I just thought it would help with a) consistency, and b) clarity. (and, I wasn't sure if the buttons would work if you don't put a culture in... which would alleviate that issue). I also think it would make future changes easier - adjust the culture once, not X number of races (4 different trolls (oh, I included Uzuz ;p),  3 different elves)

or, just have a 'troll culture' that doesn't add anything... except the bit on the Char Sheet.

And, speaking of such things on the Char Sheet - I don't see anywhere for the race (particularly for the differentiation of some of them - again, trolls & elves, but also Dwarfs.) Am I just blind? Or was it considered unnecessary?

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You need to pick them from the drop down list in order for them to appear, is that not working?

Ohhh... no, that was my bad! Not reading the last line of the wiki... (or turning my eyes on)

Hi Phil.

I love it! Not sure why I hadn't downloaded previously (or commented - probably because I'm not playing 😭 

I really DO appreciate the time and effort put into this!!!

I'm looking at this with a Great Troll, and I noticed a few things.

For Uzdo, you've given them only 2d6 for DEX (Cell C6), but the Bestiary (p76) has 3d6., and thus the max is 14 (AD5-AH5). Thus, it appears to affect skill values (CM), and it only shows the max of 14 on the CharSheet, even after manually inserting my own value (16 - in cell Z5). Also, they don't have a culture. And... is it possible to add the skin AP for trolls? There's also an automatic addition of 25% for a missile weapon for a Warrior troll - although this isn't a given (I think most would choose Maul rather than a missile).

Weapon skills haven't transferred into the CharSheet.

I don't see a Culture for Uz... was there something I missed when I did a search for the words? (yes, I know there isn't one listed, but I thought perhaps take the adjusted base % for trolls, and make the differences as a modifier?? Can you input negative values??)

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

But given that abstraction, how does one get in the way? The enemy can also maneuver, and with no zone of control or grid, how does "in the way " work?

Obviously the GM can house rule  it, but why ask us all about a GM unique house rule?

I think it would be one of those "We can't come up with all the rules for every single situation - so you'll just have to houserule it" things.

For me... I'd be looking at SRs - lowest gets to act first (naturally) - so, if the intervener is lowest, they can intervene. If it's the defender, they can back away, and if it's the attacker, they hit their intended target.

17 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

About the "getting in tbe middle" question: unless there is a gap to get into I don't know hiw you can do that in melee in this or any other game.   But the second Adventurer can double team the enemy, which usually means a win; and yes the first Adventurer can disengage under that rule.

 

 

Given that the entire melee round is an abstract of all the attacks, parries, feints, dodges, etc etc... including closing distance and then retreating - I don't see a problem with it. There's no "D&D you have complete control of this 5' square - unless you move" type of thing.

On 1/6/2024 at 7:01 PM, soltakss said:

Ransoms are in many ways sacrosanct. People honour ransoms and do not capture people asking for ransoms. In any case, the Herald subcult of Issaries can be used to facilitate ransoms. In fact, in my Glorantha, the trading cults (Issaries, Etyries, Argan Argar, and Lokarnos) are the ones who allow ransoms to be paid. If ransoming is made too difficult, or too dangerous, then it won't happen and the alternatives are either execution, prolonged imprisonment or being set free, none of which are as acceptable as ransoms.

 

I'm sure I've just recently re-read that ransoms are paid when other alternatives aren't likely to succeed (or make things worse). Obviously, this usually means a rescue attempt.

I won't challenge the concept that once the terms are negotiated, it becomes sacrosanct, but before then anything goes.

But, it also means that if this captain has the honour that's suggested, he *may* demand the ransom be paid even if he is rescued (if there's anyone left to pay it to). It would also mean that if they do take him through Lunar occupied territory, and they get themselves surrounded, he may tell them not to interfere and to pay the ransom he's staked his life on. (of course, what happens after that??)

I think ultimately the question comes down to how important you, the GM, sees this little episode being in the greater scheme of things... where do you want things to go from here?? Have you figured out if this captain or Anya are going to be relevant people in the future? Do you want the Lunars on their backs? Do you want them to have 1000L?? Do you want to cause grief for the Humakti?

12 hours ago, g33k said:

IMG, you spend years learning about your God, before you Initiate.

Lay members who are especially ardent, inquisitive, generous with MP-sac at worship, etc... they get noticed by the priests, get invited to extra worship ceremonies, taught some of the inner mysteries.  In time, the priesthood judges them a likely candidate for Initiation, and begins to seriously-prepare them.

THIS is where you learn about channeling the Deity.  But it's a surface-learning, an intellectual teaching.

When you actually Initiate, it's a Much Bigger Deal.
It's fundamentally a mystic experience, not an intellectual one.
It's where you actually create a connection to your Deity (and your Deity connects to you).
You sac real (permanent) POW, not (auto-regenerating) MP's.

And you get access to the basic "lingua franca" of god-magic, the Common rune-spells... plus, one Rune Special that you got from your specific deity.

But if you hadn't prepped beforehand -- for years! -- the chances of your Initiation succeeding would be very, very low.

 

That would be nice... but that's not reflected in the write-ups. Because, as we already know, basically every adult is an initiate into one of the local cults... whether you're as devoted (ardent, inquisitive, generous) - or not!

Which makes me curious - this is in your Glorantha... do you set high standards for the PCs to actually follow all the cult precepts and ideas, ideologies, devotion, etc? Is Initiation actually a Big Deal for the PCs (sort of like it was back in RQ2 days)? (Have you changed the rates of full initiation in YG? So that the numbers are much lower)

11 hours ago, Richard S. said:

My personal take for common Rune magic:

• Command Cult Spirit, Divination, Sanctify, Summon Cult Spirit - these are all just variations on creating a connection between the god and initiate, which the initiate has already done.
• Dismiss Magic, Extension, Multispell, Soul Sight - these are just using raw divine power to manipulate the flow of magic. Maybe they're a holdover of when the god learners figured out how to sorcerously manipulate rune spells, or maybe they're what they were basing their study on.
• Spirit Block - The bit of Flesh Man inside all mortals allows for this one.
• Find Enemy, Heal Wound, Warding - These I think have the least justification for being auto-learned, besides for gameplay reasons. If I had to put them with the others I'd put FInd Enemy and Warding with the first group (Warding especially is just a specialized Sanctify), and Heal Wound in the second.

As for spirit magic learning, the original topic, I think that it usually takes a week since you're essentially trying to develop a new "magical muscle" on your spirit/CHA. Worship ceremonies bring the Hero Plane into proximity, thus making time and magic both behave a bit differently, so the process can be significantly sped up during them. You can also force spirits to "graft" their own magic onto you, bypassing the whole process of developing it yourself (RAW I don't think spirits lose spells that you force them to teach, but I'm considering it as a possibility, similar to HW integration).

I really like your interpretations!!!

12 hours ago, g33k said:

IMG, initiates & even priests do not "learn" Rune-Magic.

You are channeling the god when you cast Rune Spells -- i.e. your god is casting the spell through you.
You do not "know" Rune-magic; you know how to channel your God (via own Runic affinities); it is that ability which is learned in your studies, and mystically-unlocked during the Initiation ritual.

Fair - but it would still take some time...

Or, are you envisaging that the god magically and mystically instantly gives this information to the new Initiate? And, why can't they also do this with the 'special' Rune Spells that explicitly do take a week to learn?

My argument isn't about it takes no time/1 week. It's about the inconsistency that doesn't seem to make sense in-world. It lacks logic.

12 hours ago, g33k said:

Except that this ISN'T the presumption of the RAW.

Some deities do not have the full suite of "Common" Rune magic (they are common but not universal ).  The "visuals" and "lived experience" of each deity's Rune Magic vary from  one to another; the game-mechanics are the same, but the "spells" differ.

Well, true, but I was looking at it from a different angle - not the 'availability', as you've commented on, but on the actual existence and mechanism.  It's a bit God-Learnery, is what I was trying to get across. E.g., they all (ok, mostly) have an ability to Extend the duration of their Rune Spells (and only Rune Spells), which just coincidentally happens to be exactly 15 minutes (base) and Extends it for exactly the same amount of time for each RP spent on it - for each and every God...

(as I write this, it makes God Learnerism, the Monomyth, and Invisible God ideas make so much more sense!!! It explains these interesting quirks quite well)

15 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

As to learning all the common rune spells, I think that's a game design choice rather than a representation of any underlying truth. It would be annoying having to choose between common and special rune spells when learning them and keeping track of which ones you've learned, so it was decided to give the payers all the common spells to play with.

True... but also, given how close much of RQG is to RQ2, and that this is only a very new (this edition) ruling, I don't think it's that much of a problem... and for newbies, there's a high likelihood they've come from that other game, in which choosing spells is run of the mill.

Besides, one could easily handwavium that those spells which are in the 'common' list were all learned within the first few weeks/months after initiation... and so, for most starting players, this is irrelevant. however, it would become relevant when a) doing a SSIS type adventure (with characters needing to do their first initiation), or b) joining a new cult.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the one week time frame for learning a spirit spell is for creating a focus. You can learn a spell quicker than that but you'd be casting it without a focus which takes time. That's my understanding anyway, I haven't checked.

When my party broke their weapons out in the wilderness, Harmast summoned a cult spirit and learned Repair from it. I was quite generous allowing that, I should probably have said the spirit could cast it to repair all their stuff and then disappear.

Well, actually, according to some people, yes, it does actually take 1 week to actually learn (presumably, during that time, the fetish/focus is also being made for it).

RBoM p107 "Certain spirit magic may be offered to initiates as partof the ceremonies on cult holy days. Otherwise, learning a new spell takes one week of work. Nothing else in the way of learning may be done during this week."

Yeah, either the spirit should have cast it, or Harmast needs to beat it in spirit combat to learn the spell... not just a given. Which begs the question - why spend a week learning a spell when you can just summon a (low POWered) spirit, and wrestle for it?

On 1/6/2024 at 7:26 PM, Ned said:

I justify it as 'interventions within time that all gods can make', lesser (and less difficult) forms of divine intervention, help you can ask of any god. Also, I've introduced slight differences to the common rune spells for each PC's cult (Ernalda, Argan Argar, White Hart Spirit Tradition) for flavour - especially as I wanted to have Specials and Crits for Rune Magic, and those effects vary between cults. I wanted a crit to add something permanent to a character that brought them closer to resembling their god (plus they seemed rare enough occurences to allow a nice cheerful boost to the players!).

I've given them cards to look through, as their ubiquity made them spring to mind less. Examples attached!

 

I like what you've done! It sounds like a good idea... which players will just LOVE to exploit!!!

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

1) it through Cult Lore that you learn the basic mythic frame. As a Lay Member, you're going to the services, hearing the basic stories, watching the rituals of the priests, and these provide you with an understanding of the Common Rune Spells, or how to draw the god into you to achieve these basic capabilities.

I don't buy it. Not all at once. I would suggest that some time needs to be spent in order to sort of get used to the power of the god. BUT...

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

2) when you are initiated you are filled with the essence of the god - you have a moment of one-ness, and that endows you with how the god interacts with the world and how you commune with it. As Rune spells are embracing the god, you're letting the god into you and the god guides you with these basic Rune spells.

..This actually would make it more logical and more sense that the cult special spells are learned virtually instantly - because those are the myths that get told. Can anyone quickly tell me the myth in which Orlanth Healed someone?? (I'm sure that in the world of Glorantha, there probably is, but I don't think there's one in any of the writings relating to either RQ or even HQ about this). And, it's incredibly coincidental that ALL the major gods have exactly the same spells (and at the exact same RP cost! - Almost...)

I'm not suggesting that every Rune spell should take a week to learn (although, I'm not against that idea either), but I do think that it's just another artefact of the game, and not an actual representation of the world... for the sake of making things easier on players (and GMs).

14 minutes ago, David Scott said:

An adventurer gains access to all common Rune spells available to the cult at initiation—there is no need to gain each spell individually!

Common Rune Magic box, RQG 74 / Mythology 141.

Note that there will be a few of cults that don't follow this format, including the upcoming Seven Mothers (all common a season after initiation) (then pretty much the same as Cults of Prax 41).

Yes, I know what the rules say. That's why I wrote, "Personally, I think that's a silly rule" - because it doesn't really make sense (to have separate times to learn "common" Rune Spells versus the special ones... and, let's face it, it's an arbitrary decision this list of 'common' spells.) Like I've asked for other things, is there a logical in-game world reason for this? Or, is it simply an "MGF" construct?

9 minutes ago, Cassius said:

there is no need to gain each spell individually!" (Mythology, p. 137 - book). So there is no "mini-Heroquest" for each spell

Personally, I think that's a silly rule. HOW do the newly initiated learn to cast those spells?? It also presumes, by a certain interpretation, that all Common Rune Spells are the same from each god/spirit... I would say they most definitely aren't. (at the very least, hence why the Runes used are different). I think it's simply a quick mechanic that someone thought of to make things easier for the game, and not really representative of the world.

8 hours ago, Cassius said:

Sounds good to me. If we assume that the period of adulthood initiation lasts roughly two years from age 14 to 16, that's one spell point of spirit magic per year, to reach five points at age 21.
Between the ages of 16 and 21, the young man or woman has certainly been initiated into a cult and may also have learned runic spells.

The other thing that hasn't been raised here (which is tangential to the OP) is how long it takes to learn Rune Spells... And I don't mean the 'special' ones! So, during this early stage of initiation - between 'childhood' and 'full adult', there's that time in-between when they need to be taught things.. and this would include the Rune Spells - especially the Common ones. Yes, I do expect each of those to also take 1 week to learn... after all, they're mini-Heroquests, learning to channel the god's power. (and only after which you've got what it takes to channel down the special stuff! - so, those 3 RPs on 'special spells' - they're only taught at the end...(the RPs are there and useable, but in something like SSIS, I'd ask players which order they learn the Common ones in... Probably Heal Wound, and then Sanctify... Summon/Command Cult Spirit comes towards the end).

On 12/27/2023 at 7:38 PM, Cassius said:

They have no spiritual or runic magic.

I can agree with the rest of this, but I would think that as the cult and the community is so interwoven as to be inseparable, that the kids would slowly be taught some spirit magic over the course of those couple of years - especially things like a Heal. Something like 1 point per season or similar. This has the advantage of not suddenly dumping a pile of spirit magic spells on them all at once just after the initiation rites.

13 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In RQG, where rune magic is more common and reusable, our tanks frequently have something like Shield 5 and Prot 4 or 6.  16 points of magical armor, even halved, makes them immune to trollkin sling stones and (nearly) multi-missiled arrows.  If not halved, they would be immune to a lot.

I get here you are coming from, it sure seems like magic should protect, but be careful with changes.

Ok... so, would you ever put your PCs up against Harrek or Jar-Eel? If not, why not?

And then extend that to the power your PCs have against trollkin sling stones... Would you not actually agree that this makes sense? Because, your PC has actually worked for it! Shield 5 + Prot (IMHO) deserves to have that level of immunity!

Yes, I don't like the DnD higher levels being immune to the peasant rabble (or goblins, orcs, etc) either... but I do think that there should come a point where you invest all that time, effort, energy, and POWer to get some level of "you can't touch this". And at this point, we're heading into more epic, hero-level,  clashes... and the trollkin simply need to leave you alone with the ZZ Death Lords to handle.

4 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I cannot speak for the design intent behind RQ's rule but for my post, it is clearly and unapologetically, "we need a reason for why crits get through protective magic so it sounds reasonable that protective magic isn't flawless".

That's fair.

Personally, I'd just change the rule instead. Perhaps I might make it only offer half protection against crits...

On 12/25/2023 at 12:39 PM, DreadDomain said:

I believe it is reasonable to assume that magic is NOT perfect and that protective magic is NOT flawless or without "small openings". Therefore It could be breached or bypassed through a masterful or lucky strike.

Honestly, that sounds like an ad hoc reason for why crits get through, rather than an intentional, categorical statement about magic in the world. (or, putting it another way - which came first? The 'protective magic isn't flawless' or the 'we need a reason for why crits get through such magics'?)

On 12/25/2023 at 11:46 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Many of our PCs have much higher Dodge than Parry. 

In any case, what I am suggesting is that a Martial Artist treat their highest defensive skill, under whatever name it was under older systems, as Dodge in RQG.

 

I get what you're saying, but...

(A - are you talking about in RQG?? And if so, B - are you referring to their primary melee weapon? Or just secondary/tertiary ones? Because, as you know, in RQG, Parry & Attack are the same skill and percentage)

Deflecting (parrying) a spear with a sword is basically done exactly the same way as deflecting with your arm. Dodging and parrying are clearly not the same thing.

Your point does make me think that perhaps the old 'Defence' skill be brought back, as a generic "this is how you stop getting hit in combat - other than specific parrying or dodging" - ie, basic footwork and keeping distance.