Shiningbrow

On 10/3/2023 at 10:38 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Now, if some character (probably a PC, we know what they're like) decides to trek all across Glorantha in order to collect as many associated cults and husband protectors as possible, the GM is going to have to make a call (their local cult might not be amused, for instance - the cult Ernalda of Sun County is likely to take a dim view of you learning Create Shadow) - but in principle this seems doable?

I would think the great Ernalda temple in Nochet would have all the husband-protectors, and their associated spells.

I'm not so sure that the Ernaldan cult would worry too much about you having Create Shadow, but the Yelmalions around you might (if they could ever discover that you have that spell).

13 minutes ago, Malin said:

Well, Fertilize doesn't tie up any rune points for the season, so it might be more worth it for farmers on alright land with good skills.

Good catch!!

On 9/30/2023 at 12:44 AM, Malin said:

Nah they actually have a special spell for that, Fertilize. Cheap and useful, so no need for fallow fields!

yeah, I know... I'm curious about that. Why have both? (other than the rare instance of the land being blasted or something)

(also, Ernalda doesn't actually get Fertilize, although one would presume she's got access to it - or it's accidentally been left out of the book).

It's as cheap (but less useful) as Bless Crops (unless there is that rare instance).

On 9/28/2023 at 5:36 PM, Joerg said:

Still, quadrupling the population for Esrolian conditions will be very hard unless there is less land left fallow over there.

Given the earth/crop magic, why would you need much fallow land to be left?? I'd presume they'd try to use up as much of the land as possible (cos those grain goddesses aren't wild plant goddesses).

Even if the land was all used up (i.e., needing to be left fallow on this non-magical ball), that Bless Crops would basically replace all the nutrients.

2 minutes ago, g33k said:

The "Double Whammy" is IMO too big a penalty.

Take someone with POW 10 vs POW 15... I don't mind the 25% chance-to-succeed, that feels apropos of average-vs-strong POW vs POW.

But the 50% gate (of a POWx5 roll before you can even try for that 25% chance) means a net 12.5% chance to succeed... and really, 1 in 8 is awfully low odds in a life-or-death situation like combat!  That's a desperation-move...

Now, if it's a choice between that and melee with a Zorak Zoran rune-lord, it might look like a reasonable choice.  Usually, though, it is much less-so.

Then don't make POW a dump stat!!!

13 hours ago, StephenMcG said:

I think the double whammy of not being able to cast it and then not being able to be effective with POW vs POW rolls feels unfair.

I think we have a different definition of the word 'unfair'.

If a player has decided to go with a low POW purely because it's the easy stat to increase, then they can suffer the consequences! AND make the increases more meaningful.

Like @g33k above, added time spent focussed on the casting should increase the % to cast. Not a flat 50%. (and the RAW isn't enough of an increase for spirit magic, since spirit magic is supposed to be easy to cast!)

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thunder Brother costs 4 points to summon by the Bestiary (Thunderous only), at least for the sample one there. What muddles the waters is that some rulings have suggested that you still need a special summoning spell for it. 

Thanks! Slipped my mind...

6 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

however an Orlanthi who names a Thunder Brother would not get it for one measly rune point.

Summon Snake Daughter is 4 points. So, I'd figure a Thunder Brother should be the same - although, there are more Snake Daughters than Thunder Brothers, and the TBs tend to be stronger/more powerful.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

In my own imagination cult spirits would include the shirts of dead cult initiates,

Well, in my Glorantha, they're also the trousers and shoes! And occasionally, even a hat!!!

On 7/24/2023 at 4:01 AM, soltakss said:

I don't like religious dogmatism. There are lots of examples in the real world where people of diametrically opposed religions were friends. They just agreed to disagree.

While I do generally agree with this idea, this 'real world' (What, you're saying Glorantha isn't real??? take your tinfoil hat off, looney!!!) doesn't have gods that regularly show themselves. the "diametrically opposed religions" here are largely because they take it all on 'faith'. You can agree to disagree - until you cop a Lightning bolt to the face, or Sunspear to the guts! (well, ok, all hit locations).

1 hour ago, JRE said:

And Fazzur is commonplace?

Extremely popular name, AFAIAC... 😛

On 7/24/2023 at 3:42 AM, soltakss said:

so Sense Darkness for Yelmalians and so on.

Would totally suck for them half the time!!! (actually, probably more than half the time, unless buildings have LOTS of windows or candles/lanterns)

On 7/25/2023 at 12:19 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Detect everything should be a huge magic point sink, sorceror or not..  

Even a combined detect weapons, armor, and asassins/ criminals/ enemies should be a huge magic point sink.  Let it run for a while and you won't have the MPs left to deal with a serois threat.

And similarly, a "sense" that duplicates that for free seems to me to be an exercise in munchkinry.

 

 

Nah! Why worry about it? Especially if it takes concentration. And, perhaps even better if it doesn't (way too much intrusion into their life). There are so few rare occasions when it's actually useful the way the PCs would want.

PC: "I focus on my Detect Weapons/armour spell"

GM: "Sure... you sense.... LOTS of them around you! Everyone is glowing... and rather concerned about it and looking for the reason why (i.e. - you!)"

Assassins, criminals, enemies... (well, enemies is already in the list of standard Spirit magic spells)... criminals would need to be specified - cos most people have done something against a law... in the middle of Clearwater or Pavis, I'd expect almost everyone to light up, cos they've all done something against the Lunars at some point - including theft, tax evasion, plotting against them, etc. Assassins would be useful - but only on occasions. Sure, useful if you want to root out a Blackfang Brotherhood somewhere, and so Humakti would love you for it - but that's about it.

So, personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, not having or allowing such spells would be against the MGF rule - this is Glorantha, a very magic rich world, and so such spells make sense (I know you haven't suggested they shouldn't be there! I'm just going further with your point).

You have suggested they should be very MP intensive - well, any useful version already is! You want a decent range, and unless the PC is intending to cast it regularly (and take that time to cast), then it'll need a good Duration.  Anything half useful is going to need a good 8MPs or more... (IF they have the right Runes).

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There have been similar questions about gifts and geases for a long time. I don't know if that ever got answered either...

Of course it was answered.... YGMV!

17 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

On the other hand, for an expert swordsman to evaluate a sword doesn't seem magic to me.  An alternative would be to simply use the sword skill or to make it an augment to Evaluate.  And on a success I would give specifics, for example if a masterpiece is +10% to hit the Swordsman should know that it has uncommonly good balance and lightness. 

 Similarly an Issaries has the Evaluate skill and should be able to tell whether a deal is fair, and to augment it with another cult skill.

Yeah, I figured that was largely the point to augments, and I presume that using Runes to augment basic skills sort of got tacked on later.

Is there a god of roleplaying games?

27 minutes ago, JRE said:

The 30% was probably an exaggeration, though it is possible in the rules. Someone with 70% life will be more useful in Voria as she will then specialize on life giving tasks. But what do you do with those with 40-60% affinity?

Well, that does bring up the question of how well do the character creation rules reflect the average Gloranthan?? Do most people have the bonuses that PCs have?

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Calling the god until your target  (= 90%) then nothing more (or anything involving someone as a "tool" for your experience check, then forget them) in a pure mechanic optimization is what I dislike. Playing against your passion is what I dislike (I say I, other may have different taste, no issue).

Ummm, I think I'm a little confused, but also agree.

"Calling your god until your target then nothing more" seems odd to me. I can't see what you mean by this... perhaps an example? Because, the only thing I can see that working with might be a Rune increase (and that can be taught anyway), and if you're getting that Rune increase, it's purely so you can cast your Rune spells more effectively. I am having trouble imagining someone doing it and then never using that Rune again...

I do agree with you about people playing against their character's passions - that's not playing the character!!! If you didn't want them to act that way, then they shouldn't have the passion! If you just want the benefits, then you're not really playing in the heart of the game/world.

18 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But if you want an exotic skill, or something deeper (POW ...) then you may become an "apprentice" (priest / shaman / smith / skill master ...) . Find a master, obey, serve and learn (gain loyalty, ... or hate 😛 , change your occupation according to your master,... assistant priest / assistant shaman / smith / skill apprentice ...) but that would imply your background and how it changes your pc's view of the world. That should not play like "hey I learn 2% with this postcast! star wars yes, (my) glorantha no 😛

I would imagine that most temples and the priests/Rune Lords/GodTalkers would be more than happy to help aspiring initiates to advance in the cultic ways - especially if you were closing in on a Rune Lord position.

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

exactly

they are not all murderer, psychopath or thing like that. Oh of course, among them you may find some madness, or less crazy "just berserker"  (because some are) but the main point, fot the more rational of them (including my "diplomat") is dissuasion. If you try see what we will do. You don't want to meet us.

Violence is always an option to solve a problem for wind, sure, and earth has other ways. Bab's other way may be violence to prevent problems.

However the goddess herself can be crazy too. So that's not all white or all black. This more between dirty brown and shiny red.

7 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Hunting oathbreakers, defilers, etc. is a religious ritual, embarked on as seriously as an unfamiliar heroquest.

I wouldn't call it an "unfamiliar" heroquest - but one of the central ones to her mythology.

So, how would you handle someone calling upon a BG for assistance in hunting down an oathbreaker - if that BG hasn't studied the arts of war, and has a low Death rating? Is she given a free pass to go find someone else to do it for her?

Personally, I think that would be dishonouring her Goddess.

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Maybe (and maybe he is right) @AndreasDavour thinks that if a person in Glorantha proposed such a theory, they would never be able to assign skills and skill levels to people and difficulties to tasks in a way that had predictive power; they would never be able to turn it into an empirical theory, and definitely not one that would satisfy a Gloranthan Karl Popper. (Or perhaps their theory would be so rigid and determinate that it was falsified right away. Who knows?)

But what if a character in RuneQuest formed such a theory? They drew up charts of AP, and HP, relative proportions of hits and impalements, weapon damages, and the rest, then they went out and field tested it. Would they find that the RQ rules made a pretty good “theory of everything”? We speak as if minmaxing is possible: by making smart choices based on the rules, we think that we can improve our characters’ chances of succeeding. If we find that confirmed by the course of play, wouldn’t a character who conjectured what we read in the rule books find it confirmed in the course of their life? I don’t know, but maybe crazy inhabitant of Glorantha and crazy RQ character don’t line up too well.

I disagree (of course :p)

"I have piano grade 8" actually makes sense to us. It has a real world meaning from which prediction is possible (anyone who is aware of piano exams adn training will know what such a person with grade 8 should be capable of, and have an idea of what they need to do in order to advance to grade 9).

Similarly, we operate the same way with education in general. We would be confident that a grade 6 level of education is not capable of doing as well as someone who has Grade 12 (usually).

Also, it is also meaningful to say that I know about X% of a language.

We also speak in levels and grades for some occupations - Administration Officer level 9. We use descriptors for ranks in the various services.

And we could also meaningfully say that a spell increases one's ability to hit by about 5%, 10%, 20% etc. Again, this is something that already happens in the real world. And teachers are constantly giving grades on reports, often in a percentage value.

think o

We could do that with characteristics. Certainly we use a numerical value for intelligence - IQ. We could do that with strength, based on our lifting or carrying capacity. Size is easy. For all of these things, we already generalise (well below average to well above average).

We could do that with HP and AP - and we know this because it has meaning for us when we sit at the table, and there is no confusion.

So, I think Gloranthans could speak like that - if it was built into their culture.

However, rather than speaking quantitively, I think they'd do what we would, and be qualitative. I can imagine someone saying that they've learnt the first level of Bladesharp, and next week will learn the second and third levels. However, I would be more inclined to think they'd use 'minor', 'lessor', etc

For characteristics, we talk about 'very strong' or 'quite weak' - and we could  put numerical values on it....

However - I doubt that they actually do use numerical values (although, maybe, just maybe they might for variable spells! Level 1 or 3 etc)

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

For example I dislike to play or gm with people who, trying to become priest or this idea,  will find shaman to summon a spirit of 14-16 POW because that is the range the most efficient to have the POW check.  And once they have reach their goal, bye bye, no more spiritual activies. Now focus on the devotion passion because these f**^ rules require a 90% so let's try to invoke the god in any circumstance. Ha it is done, at least 90%... No more need to call the god for the next years (don't want to fail a roll, after all, the risk to lose % is too important !), let's focus on climb or swim, or maul, or ...

Personally (and that's all it is), I have to partly disagree with this. If the character would actually have the ambition to become a Rune Priest or Rune Lord (or even just an initiate of a different cult), then I do think they would actively seek out the relevant (and efficient) ways to improve what needs improving. It would be silly not to. Just like in our real world, if someone needs to get a certain qualification, they take various courses, or attempt to get certain amounts of experience... and quite possibly, never look back on it again!

Think of going to university and all the subjects one might have to pass just to graduate...

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

As I understand it, dual initiation is common in Sartarite cities. Typically, one initiation represents your kin ( e..g. clan or city), and the other your profession (e.g. a guild or regiment). So a blacksmith initiate of Gustbran is very likely to be also an Orlanth initiate of whatever clan.

This does, as the rules specify, take twice as much time, money and energy as being an initiate  of one cult. So it is also common for one or the other allegiances to drop down to lay member. Sometimes almost everyone does this, and the guild, or indeed clan, withers to being just a secular organisation providing no Rune magic.

Of course, even in cities, most men are farmers; for them the Orlanth cult is effectively both clan and guild. 

Yinkin and Odayla are mostly clan-based cults, often filling the niche of an alternate route to status for those who don't do well in their adulthood initiation ordeal. There may also be worshiped by what are in effect a 'hunters guild' for specialist hunters, trackers and scouts.

Babeestor Gor can be a kin-based cult, for those who are brought up in one of the great earth temple complexes. it is also, especially in Esrolia, affiliated with the mercenaries guild, and patron of several regiments.

 

IMO, I would see dual initiation as being 'common', as you said, but not typical. So, if I had to put a figure on it, I'd say only about 20% of adults will have initiated into more than one cult (while virtually everyone is a Lay Member of at least 2 or more additional cults).

Part of the reason for this 20% is the lack of need to do so, as well as the expenditures involved (as you mentioned - time, money, POW).

Orlanth & Gustbran? Sure! (actually, Orlanth and many/most others). However, I'm not so sure that many would dual initiate into both Orlanth and Issaries or LM - no real need to. (which is why I think adulthood initiation is different to cult initiation - or the need for a higher level of initiate!)

While Ernaldan initiation alone will be fine for most, Ernalda & BG also makes perfect sense (and there's no reason not to have high in both Earth and Death - the core rules make it very easy to have 80% in both at character creation). BG and Yinkin - less so.

11 hours ago, JRE said:

the first to recognize that money's value was nominal and not associated to the precious metal content, which is why they do not use precious metals as coinage.

I think this is a really important point! Have Gloranthan (at least, Sartarite, Esrolian, Lunar, Praxian) come to this conclusion?? I have been presuming it hasn't.

If not, then it would suggest that a sword is worth about 1/10th of it's weight in silver (well, more, because that would just be the value of the metal - how much for the craftmanship and labour, etc??)

And if you were paying in bronze, that would be a few ENCs worth. (not that anyone is buying a sword very often). But, having a coin (or something) between a bronze and a gold would make sense.

15 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

(IMHO it would be worth using iron for dies, even at 700L a Thing In Glorantha.

I wouldn't think a die would be that big... of course, I don't really know!

I figured it would be much easier just to melt the silver into moulds - significantly cheaper, maybe quicker. Turn all those Lunars you have in your pocket to Guilders within minutes.

Ummm... Eurmali Lie - "The Emperor wants you to come with us and tell us everything about XYZ".

Done and dusted!

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Of course, they are Ernaldans.

I think in Gloranthat there is a lot of transfer between associated cults, much easier than what usually happens with PCs. So Ernaldans in times of conflict and war may (even if it is only a small fraction) transfer to Maran Gor, and use their accumulated Runepower on Gorite spells. Once the bad times pass, most return to the fertile bosom of Ernalda, though a few will stay with Maran, a reminder of the destructive power of the Earth, and keeping the powerful magics that will still be needed in the future. 

In the same way, many Babeester Gor Axe maidens may switch later to Ernalda (if Death is not strong in them) or Maran Gor, though there will be some that will go directly from the maiden to the crone, either Ty Kora Tek or Asrelia. 

I expect that will be part of the Earth pantheon book, including also what is the role of Voria as the Life alternative to Babeester Gor, though it seems many of her place is taken by Ernalda, at least at the initiate level, but also what to do with devotees without kids but not taking the Death path.

Hmmm... I'm not so ok with this pick-up/put-down of cults so easily. Not with they way cults are currently depicted.

Now, if there was another level between Initiate and Rune Level (as has been suggested elsewhere), perhaps... This next step up (call it 'Devotee') would have access to deeper mysteries and secrets than a basic Initiate. It would also make access to some of the more powerful spells more limited (no longer does "every Orlanthi farmer have a Lightning" type of argument).

But this is going too far off-topic ....

On 7/10/2023 at 10:46 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why would society allow these breakers of sacred Hospitality to live? 

I presume, when someone has offended the Earth Temple in such a way, then the laws of hospitality may no longer apply. Although, I can see that the local thane may not be aware of this, and hence the BG should notify said thane when they first get there.

Granted, there are a number of presumptions in the above.

Personally, I didn't have the same issue that @kara mentions above, just as I didn't with the stereotypical Stormbull. I would even suggest that BG as a cult in general would be happy to promulgate that stereotype in many places, just as I'm sure Humaktis and Stormbullies do. That doesn't mean there wouldn't be exceptions (even possibly the majority - after all, stereotypes are rarely reflective of a majority that's actually been encountered and understood).

(Note - if we follow this path, then there must be kind, loving, caring and supporting Maran Gorites who wouldn't harm a fly (metaphorically) as well. )

On 7/11/2023 at 12:23 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think they could say ”Lunar” (the currency) ”silver piece” (the type of coin), or probably a whole slew of different words (much like the pound can be a ”quid”).

Weapons & Equipment, p. 5 - different currencies. Prior to the Lunar invasion, Sartar used 'guilder's, and so I would presume that once the Lunars have been removed, then the Lunars were no longer accepted (except in a few rare instances with traders), and the guilder was reinstated.