Shiningbrow

18 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Except that it is OK for a player to be more “enlightened” (even though most uz hate the expression) than their human character.

"Endarkened"???

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

Should be urban agricultural, rural agricultural, nomadic pastoralist and hunter-gatherer, after the primary source of food. (Fisherfolk sort of need to be associated with any of these.)

Honestly, I'd like to see a JC of a whole stack of homeland/occupation tables related to each. As I'm quite sure a Noble from Nochet would be quite different in skill selection (and %) from a Noble from Prax, or Glamour, or Clearwine... apart from the Homeland percentages. (would farmers/fishers/hunters be the same across the continent, for the most part??)

I do most certainly appreciate that having such piles and piles of tables would not be to everyone's liking, would affect character creation (too many options can slow things down... at first!)

I do also think that there should be some sense of 'balance' at this point - at least, for each race - but differences between races.

On 10/26/2023 at 9:47 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

If I recall some of the material correctly, you might not bring back physical things from the quest;

Yes and no... firstly, it will depend on the GM. It's certainly been a possibility with previous versions. (logically, if you go in with physical items, then it makes sense that you can leave with them as well. Similarly, if your physical items (or yourself) can be damaged there, then again it suggests things can be taken back!

Secondly, you can transform a physical item you bring with you (again, logically from the above if you/they can be damaged, they can be transformed).

11 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Ugh.

You don't need to say it now, do you?  Urban, Rural, and Nomadic work just fine.  Couple them with relative (if arbitrary) states of technological development appropriate to the genre (Simple vs Complex) and you can describe a character without invoking needless, quaint, and inaccurate real-world cultural bias.  Unless your game is actually about portraying cultural bias, in which case you're frying a different fish.

!i!

Hmmm, you may be right! Primitive as a technological level works well as an adjective for the other three groupings!

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

(note that the bonus is not you have a bonus when you work in Esrolia, the bonus is anywhere in the world if you are Esrolian, so that is knowledge not localization)

Although a very narrow scope, this is really important!!! A GM should at least dump a huge negative when trying to do something in a very different environment (be it farming, fishing, herding or hunting... or bureaucracy, insight, orate).

As for how to make these skill tables work better - actually, going back an edition or two... Urban, rural, nomad, and.... oh, we have a problem with the new PC woke world we live in, because we can't really say 'primitive' now, can we? (just as I'm not using 'civilised' and 'barbarian').

Then we could add bonuses... Such as those based on homeland/culture.

And, in a way, I like Mongoose here - choose from a list of skills (although, rather than an all or nothing, I'd suggest "Allocate X% of points amongst these options - none higher than" idea). Then do the same with occupation. Then add the 'bonus' skills. (I'm not sure if blanket +25/10% works... easier, sure! But perhaps 'add 150% to any skills, but no more than X to any one' would work better!

This allows urbanised Esrolians to be somewhat different to rural Esrolians (how many in the city would really know how to farm properly?? And that would go for any city folk... If you want to know how to farm, 'buy' the skill!)

My 2 bolgs worth...

Firstly, it will greatly depend on why said bandit has become a bandit! What's their relationship to their clan? (also, what's the purpose of the question? For a PC, or for NPCs you're creating??)

I think you should strongly consider .... none! For a few reasons...

Firstly, while Orlanth has been mentioned numerous times, if the bandit has been thrown out of their community, they may no longer feel that bond that could be felt through the god - effectively, their god has abandoned them!

Secondly, if your bandit has been forced into a life of crime, I don't see the need to change into one of the darker cults. They should just try to stick with whatever cult they had before becoming a bandit. Only those who made the decision to go bad would actively choose a bad god to follow.

Thirdly, access to worship rituals. Unless your bandit crew has a high level initiate or above, then any initiates aren't going to be able to readily partake of worship ceremonies (in order to access or recover Rune Points/Spells).

This leaves the rather obvious situation - they are often spirit cult worshippers, and only get their magic from shamans they can pay. (or not bothering to worship anything at all).

Then consider likely scenarios - they've committed kinstrife... Orlanth and the clan no longer recognise them, so they can't go back home. But, they aren't evil murderers and so don't want to switch over to worshipping some other god. What if they used to be a farmer, and worshipped Barntar? Well, that's pretty pointless now, but again, why change? Maybe they were Ernaldan - again, is there much point in switching gods for an unfortunate circumstance?

(yes, I'm looking at this from a more human perspective - not the 'I chose the bandit occupation')

Yeah, I did the same a few years ago...

My question - not about 'balance' - is whether two people from vastly different backgrounds and experiences, can be said to have such significant amounts of differences in their knowledge and skills - at the same age (and from a relatively similar culture, that being 'bronze age').

Sure, some people put in more time and effort to learn things, but I don't think that the homeland and occupations tables are actually trying to indicate that.

There should be some basic facts that we can acknowledge - most humans (on Earth) have similar linguistic abilities at the same age levels, regardless of culture (and technology level). Knowledge of one's own customs is usually pretty similar (but, may depend on whether there are clear boundaries socially). Perception skills will differ, because of how you're brought up, and what's important.

There are a LOT of other differences in types of skills known. But I'm not sure you can really make the argument that one's homeland/occupation gives one more 'skill points' - just different - and across the board... (ie, even a beggar in Nochet is as knowledgeable/experienced as a noble - based on merely being born in the same area... ALL Esrolians are more experienced just by living there (and everyone knows the same amount of weapon skills to the same degree)

(is a 4th year plumber more knowledgeable about plumbing than a 4th year electrician is about electrics? Or chef? or boilermaker? Same with our college/university graduates) From experience, I can say that there are indeed differences in education (we can see that from world rankings & competitions!)

There's clearly been some attempt at balance!  Every homeland has weapons skills at either 10 or 15% - with only ONE exception - and that's the only one with a single 20% and a single 5% (Impala Rider)... (balance)

Yes, this is an artefact of a role playing game, and different RPGs do it in different ways.

On a different note - is there much in the way of different percentages for the occupations based on different locations? No (cat all Nobles (or philosophers, priests, scribes, farmers, etc) are the same! (Can Praxian Nobles and Priests actually read???)

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the Hero Soul is basically the Rune Magic equivalent of a Fetch.

Are you thinking an actual equivalent, or just a rough analogy?

I would have thought the Allied Spirit to be the equivalent. (although, even there, not quite).

Largely because a shaman could have a Hero Soul as well, and they do fairly different things.

On 10/28/2023 at 8:26 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Drew says it should be “Yelmalians,” not “Yelmalions,” and he’s a linguist, so I go with that nowadays.

Why?

Without having an understanding of the language it comes from, it would be hard to make such a call.

(not a 'linguist', but a Masters in Applied Linguistics...)

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think there is a lot of worship. While Storm Bull has a limited number of initiates, he surely receives a crapton of associated worship through Waha and Eiritha, having a big role in their rituals. 

Yes, but not directly as a 'bull' god (or the male counterpart to Eiritha)... only as the berserker. Almost like the Stormbull himself doesn't like to be reminded of that part of himself (because, you know, he doesn't offer up any magic other than the anti-Chaos stuff).

However, there's a nice plot device... a Bisos worshipper from the north/west comes over to take a look at where their god finally fell - and reintroduces that aspect and those magics to the Praxians.

So... when it's raiding season, who is expected to risk their lives? Everyone? Or are the slaves allowed not to? (presumably, those not yet ransomed will not be going anywhere). Is anyone else (other than some of the more obvious individuals) allowed to stay back?

Are all Semi-free expected to fight as enthusiastically? Both when defending a raid, and when initiating one? For that matter, are semi-free even allowed to leave the land to go on a raid? (could a slave go on a raid against a mutual enemy?)

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If we view Storm Bull as father and protector of the herds, he failed his beast children and the land. Under cover of Darkness and war, his son Waha staged a coup (aided by Tada, who buried Eiritha): where once the herds were free people, now they are slaves of their predators, the humans:

• Death was fooled, but since that time Eiritha may never again walk freely upon Prax … Neither parent god could return to the place where Waha taught. Instead people learned the worship of the daughters of Eiritha, called the Herd Protectresses, and of Waha, who knew the secrets of the Founding Spirits of the tribes. — Cults of Prax Classic, p. 27

So all the old guy can do now is sit in the Storm Hills and talk about back in the day when he killed his brother and kinda–sorta fought his nephew to a standstill. Accounts — it seems — vary:

• His unearthly task was awesome for even a god, but he succeeded and sent the Devil plummeting to death. — CoPC, p. 12
   
• The effort nearly slew Storm Bull, and he could not finish off the helpless Devil. Storm Bull dragged himself from the still raging battle, and hid in the distant Storm Hills. — CoPC, p. 18

In the latter version, he could only summon the Block thanks to power supplied by Eiritha, but one wonders whether even that is wishful thinking and the collision of Devil and Spike fragment was simply a case of opposite poles attracting. However, if we allow that Storm Bull pinned a still-living Devil to the landscape, that fits nicely with this passage:

• Following the departure of light came the Greater Dark, when Fear and Death began openly seeking victims among the immortals. Heedless of the results of his aiding the forces he wished to conquer, the Storm Bull was headmost in combat, and introduced Death to his people when he slew vile Ragnaglar with his horns of iron. But even with such victories the god could not stop the devastation of the land caused by the coming of the Devil. — CoPC, p. 18

By reacting with fear and violence himself, Storm Bull ensures that they will be problems ever after for his people? The actions of the various Storm brothers bring about the world of Time, which world must include Death and Entropy ($5-dollar euphemism for Chaos) and does include an awful lot of fear. Again, the Devil is part of the landscape, now, and Storm Bull did that.

Where the Devil is killed, the synthesis in the Underworld is facilitated; in the version where he is not, the synthesis can be seen in action by anyone getting too close to the Block. SB killing the Devil can be part of the Net myth, or his fighting the Devil to a standstill can be an alternative to it … or an echo of it. Orlanth kills Yelm; SB wounds Lodril. Truth-runed Dayzatar (loses Fire) and Humakt (loses Storm) are aloof. Parallel trios of brothers/fragments.

Consider also this from The Book of Drastic Resolutions:

• Wakboth is the Guise of the Devil — the insulation between the Devil and Glorantha. He was the ultimate scab formed by the world to protect itself from the invasion of chaos. — Lords of Terror, p. 87

What then is the difference between the Storm Bull and his nephew, Wakboth? Both are last ditch measures taken by Cosmos to protect it from the Void? But the author of Drastic Resolutions was a lunatic, right? RIGHT? 😉

But maybe this is all Wahaist propaganda — think of the way Yelmites are happy to portray Lodril as an idiot dragging his dick through the dirt. In Prax, the new regime is happy for the old patriarch to be painted as no better than the psycho bikers who are steered toward the tattered remnant of his cult in the hope that their lives will at least be short — “Dorastor is that way. Go. Be glorious.” And maybe — just maybe — Waha is the son of Storm Bull and Eiritha only in the sense that he usurped them; it is a move to claim legitimacy. (But see also Oedipus and Laius — I have never liked the way Waha looks at Jocasta Eiritha. And would you ask a Zeus-worshipping society for a character reference for Cronus?)

Enough witless — even by my low standards — rambling for one day.

[All clod-hopping bold emphasis in quotes is mine.]

I like it! It would explain a lot!

I do like the idea of opposites attracting - Spike & Devil... I don't see SB being able to summon it, and 'coincidence' doesn't work. So, it's either that, or greater forces at work.

However, it leaves me thinking that much of this is merely the current time explanation for what happened in the past for why things are as they are now - similar to how those of ancient cultures came up with those stories to explain the present (for them).

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

In short, yes there are other local masks of Storm Bull, like Bisos who is the god of free men. I've always seen these other bull gods as the counterpart of whoever is the cattle goddess (mask of Eiritha).

Free resources:

• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s=bisos
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s=bemur
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s=Tawar
• https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/?s="bull+god"

See also https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/swish-wrap.cgi?query=bisos&submit=Search!&metaname=swishdefault&sort=swishrank

My main question relates to whether all Stormbullies in Prax & Sartar regions will always be psychopathic Chaos-hating berserkers... I haven't really seen anything yet that counters that idea.

Does the Prosopaedia have a lot more information about Bisos e al.? Because the links you've sent don't actually have much (usually, just a name)

(perhaps I should have posted this in the RQ thread, because of the other information I'd be after... such as a Rune spell list)

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Possibly, but it could also be that they just really want her back if captured.

Well, yes - but I don't think it's all that personal.

I'd imagine most CA priests will be really wanted back! Moreso than many other people - hence the higher ransom amount.

(I wonder if the ransom idea is merely the highest value that can be bargained up to by those paying it... )

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What are you if you are a Chalana Arroy priest / priestess walking a circuit of many villages, who enjoys a noble SOL partly because you are every chieftain's guest, but also because Rune magic cures and resurrections oblige the patient to give as generously as he can afford?

30 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Healer by the argument above, but at elevated ransom?

Kerisdana Hollybright, the healer in the Adventurer's Book, has a ransom of 1250. No income is listed. But, given this ransom is higher than the typical noble's or priest's, I would assume that she (and other CA's) would enjoy a higher SoL - possibly at higher than standard Noble/Priest level as well.

I think an important question that hasn't been asked is - what's the SoL and ransom for a 'high' Initiate or God-Talker?

12 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It also seems to me that when the clan chief's son or daughter goes adventuring or caravan guarding, they give up that noble status and Standard Of Living until they return home.  Though they may be treated with noble social status by those who know them, or clan chiefs  who know their father.  I would even change their character sheet and their SOL in the year end calculations, while they are away from home.

I think....

it should depend on what you think is required of such a person in order to get the money. According to the relevant chapter (Between Adventures), the Noble would have to roll their Manage Household (or Orate) to determine their income. If the GM rules that the household can be managed well enough without them (say, through a steward), then there shouldn't be any reductions (assuming the steward does the job well enough). Obviously, such a steward needs to be paid, and would come out of the final tally.  There's an example of Vasana doing this with her cousin Harmast is on p424, although it doesn't indicate how much he gets for it (his skill is only 50% anyway...) Perhaps, 1L per Manage Household percent, multiplied by the income roll(s)?? This should give a minimum of about 60L, to up to about 85L base per year - which isn't too bad for just telling people what to do. (also note, I'd allow Augment rolls here - either Farm or Herd, and the success/failure of those could also be added/subtracted from their wages... I'd suggest the same for all other income rolls!)

Orate, however, should probably mean a reduction, unless the player can justify its use (e.g. negotiating clan affairs or building support outside of clan lands).

On 10/30/2023 at 2:25 PM, Jens said:

Lucky Shaman, their spirit can rejoin their healed body without needing to spend POW. You might rule it takes at least 1 permanent POW. 

Why would you make it cost even more??? Granted, the first level of the ability might be free (and maybe even the second or third if they're lucky) - but after that it's going to cost the Shaman stat points anyway... and getting to 8 is going to be very expensive in that regard.

On 10/30/2023 at 2:25 PM, Jens said:

Sure- although I'd rule the rune points used in either Heal Body are Heal Wound are permanently lost.

Again, why would you do that (other than simply as a mean punishment). I can't see any logical (either rules or world-building) reason for it. It'd be like saying that a ghost couldn't cast those spell on a body in the middle of combat. (or, really, any other spirit).

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Something like Jamie Fraser in outlander ?

i would agree

i think (just now) there is another option in Orlanthi lands (aka « we are all equals and we choose our leaders. What ? Our leader is the child of our previous leader ? Oh didn’t see it before you told me »)

If I simplify a lot : nobility gives order to others (I mean others when you don’t pay them to do something )

then there are two levels of nobility

- ring member and priest (« job position ») : people. They lead their community (and we may find sub levels: clan chief, tribe chief, archipriest… in these organization )

- people who impress other (« social position ») I put there (ring member/priest)’families and any people rich enough to have the standard of living of noble (they have clients). These two categories have a great access to the ring and temple. So they are « respected »  ( do you think that would you have the same service than Brad Pitt everywhere ? Why if you pay the same price ? ) or « feared »(I will not annoy them in case of)

 

Oh, we were writing up the same ideas - and I let mine not save for about an hour or so 😜

I'm somewhat confused by the confusion.

If someone is born into a 'noble' family, then they can have the 'occupation' of a noble, as well as the status/standard of living - even if they're not truly 'ruling'. It's been like this for a few thousand years here on earth - you get the extended family members that technically qualify as a noble, even though they do sod all (slight pun intended!) yet have some (theoretical) measure of importance in the community - i.e., the 'lower classes' will offer some deference to them (even if the 'real' nobles of the clan consider them a complete waste of space and drain on finances. As per RQG, they get +30% to Manage Household (which is their main job!) - the waste of space nobles leave it (and Orate) at that... they can do the job, but haven't dedicated themselves to it (hence, waste of space).  They've been professionally trained in a couple of weapons (they should probably have Battle as a +% as well!) and they get to (nominally) voice their opinions on things that affect the community as a whole (more than most others... Manage the Household (stead) and make suggestions about how to improve it). Occasionally muster the fyrd and lead them off to fight something (presumably from the front!)

They solve disputes between the commoners (Orate & Customs), and regardless of how badly they're looked upon by the clan and family, the commoners are still supposed to do what they say (until it gets superseded by the smarter nobles). They get to represent the clan at some meetings, and get invited as a guest.

These people might well qualify for Upper-class Twit of the Year. (oh, that's what I should have said - noble = hereditary 'upper-class')

I'd also suggest that the 'noble' SoL in the book is somewhat towards the mid to bottom end of the noble SoL & ransom possibilities (and probably the same for Priests). Kallyr & Leika aren't down at the mere 1000L for a ransom! (Although, Ashborn is... I'd put it higher!) and their wealth is considerably higher than what's in the RQG (but, also remember that this is for players, and doesn't represent the rest of the lozenge - or even Dragon Pass and environs).

Also, a Noble is merely a managerial position! Just as one of the bold skills says!

Who actually gets to rule (as I think people are wondering about)? Those who have the higher Category Modifiers and put their +25/10% skills into those that are required for Nobling... Customs (Own), Manage Household and Orate (and maybe a bit of weapons skills)... followed by the XP checks!

Ok, thanks all for the replies.

I should have mentioned that I don't have any of the more recent publications (such as Prosopaedia), so I can't go and look that up.

My question started from a different thread (which started from a different OP :p) which suggested that Stormbull isn't merely a mindless racist killer.... and yet, that does indeed seem to be the go to and reason for his continued existence in the world... Without SB's anti-Chaos magic, he'd be a nothing (as far as worship is considered)... or at best, sort of vaguely remembered as once being important "Thanks grandad, but see you later".

There's no active worship of the Stormbull as a Founder, nor is there any magics from him in any other role than as a mindless Chaos-hating berserker - is my point.

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Of course not! Who do you think fathered the herd beasts of Prax, and the Founders of the beast folk, and the aurochs and cattle?

He's a fertility god! And this sums it up well.

Well now, here's the thing...

If that's the case, then there should be a HUGE amount of Stormbull worship in Prax - and not the small minority that has been advertised! And his role would be far more obvious in that regard! He should be as big and important as Eiritha - more so than Waha... And, it should then mean a very different cult than that presented in RQG.

So, Stormbull was around before Chaos came into the world - which is where he got most of his reputation.

But, is there anything about worshipping this aspect of him without the associated Chaos-killing?? (as in, full temples/shrines without even knowledge about it?? Much like other gods who aren't aware of other aspects worshipped in the rest of lozenge)

Or - is all worship of him brought back to this one essential feature?

Apologies for re-raising this topic (which should probably be in its own thread), but ...

On 10/9/2023 at 12:34 PM, Nell said:

SBs are violently intolerant bullies, but they aren't genocidally racist or attempting to uphold a racial hierarchy. 

Actually, yes, by definition they actually are! Any race that has Chaotic taints is supposed to be wipe off the lozenge at some point! Some are just biding their time. All broo, scorpionmen, walktapi, ogres, etc etc should be killed (and burnt).

Stormbull, as it's been presented for decades, is the one cult that has the eradication (genocide) of a whole slew of intelligent creatures as it's reason for existing! (I'm about to start a thread on this... Is there any version of Stormbull worship that doesn't have killing Chaos as central to its existence?? Such as going back before Chaos entered the world..??)

On the idea of evil in RQ - weren't the Red Vadeli invented purely as a way to have an unambiguous enemy that one could slaughter without any hints of guilt or remorse? A race that was totally, 100% intrinsically evil? (although, that does beg the question - what about Tusk Riders?)

On 10/6/2023 at 11:43 PM, Richard S. said:

they must leap up

So, what happens if they don't actually leap? What if it's more of a slow rise? Do they get Spirits of Reprisal attack them? Should they have automatic access to Orlanth's Leap spell, and be required to cast it when they hear of Chaos?

On 10/6/2023 at 11:43 PM, Richard S. said:

shout for their god,

How loud does this shout need to be? Enough to give every hungover Stormbully a migraine?

Back to the regular programming, I do agree that the role of AS may not be a simple moral imperative - that she did things because it was 'right'. And, I do think that the whole view of Glorantha has been taken to be one of a more 'Lawful' vision - and in that light, think of how enemies have been portrayed throughout history. Why is Nysalor/Gbaji 'Chaotic' and must be destroyed? Well, largely because - as history tells us - they deserve to be... but, the winners write the history! Maybe AS has some very self-serving plan that she's managed to have eventuate...??? Maybe she is part of the Chaos plan, and is playing a long game?? Or, she's neither! After all, she's managed to bind up Chaos AND a stack of gods who can't intervene... sounds like she's manipulated a lot of powers into a lose-lose situation there.

And, thus, maybe it was Arachne Solara who pushed down the GLs when they got too powerful, because it was destroying her plan... DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!!! (although, I prefer the idea that it was Glorantha herself....).

On 10/30/2023 at 5:17 AM, Erol of Backford said:

So what % of sartarites are able to write and of them on average at what skill level?

Very few, and generally very low (except for those specialised - scribes!)

According to the RQG, the only occupations that give R/W are Merchants, Nobles, Philosophers, Priests, and Scribes. Of those, only the Scribe gets it at higher than 10%. Granted, the rules are for PCs, not the general community...

However, I'd guestimate that less than 5% can read (or have a need to), and of that, the majority can do so only rudimentarily (maybe to our grade 5 or 6 level - they know all the letters, and know a lot of basic words ... but style and grammar are lacking, as well as higher end vocabulary (however, that's going to be limited by their Speak skill (in alphabetic scripts, you can know words without having the correct spelling of them... in pictographic/ideogramatic languages, you can't). Most of the occupations mentioned don't really need a high level... Merchants only need to know the names of their goods (and buyers/sellers). but you could just code those. Nobles may well have a scribe. Satarite priests can do without anyway! (that's why you have lots of pretty pictures around!) So, that leaves only the Philosophers and Scribes - the latter being by definition quite literate! (and, in Sartar, almost by definition a Lhankor Mhy, and thus a generally good level of literacy... in earlier RQ, there was a minimum percentage to be initiated into the cult!)

Thus, 5% of the population may have 10-15% R/W Own... in most clans, there's only going to be only one (maybe 2) scribes, a few merchants who have learned to read (but not many), and a couple of nobles (again, it's not really necessary for their occupation - if you have a scribe handy!)

On 10/31/2023 at 4:16 AM, John Biles said:

The Praxians also tend to have less wealth inequality, save between slaves and everyone else.

It's hard for a nomad to really get rich.

Except that wealth generally equals ornamentation taken from raids (as well as the increased herds). So, it's harder to distribute when it's merely a few objects you're wearing or carrying around in your tent (rather than actual cash).