Shiningbrow

11 hours ago, Techpriest said:

It'd be something to see for sure. 

I'll pass, thanks!

As for this thread,  what would we say about those AA trolls who contact the outside world? I presume they curtail their underground habits, and so humans find them weird (stinky) but tolerable. When they go back home, is their place just as 'squalid'?

What if someone else comes along and heals the body?

If a shaman had access to such a spell (and I can definitely see it being possible with Earth-powered shamans down in Esrolia, and RAW Yelmic shamans would have it almost automatically!), couldn't they just cast a Heal Body instead?

22 hours ago, g33k said:

Instant spells are, generally, very powerful:  they are permanent spells.  You wouldn't describe an "Instant" healing spell as having "full effect only for a round," nor Guided Teleport, etc etc etc.

The true impact (and dangers) of Lie is specifically in its sustained effect.  It is the social consequences of lies believed,  lies repeated by others... lies acted-upon.

A Lie spoken at a Clan Moot can turn the entire Clan to the Eurmali's purpose.  Now... that isn't likely to be sustained.  I would not expect (for example) the Clan to actually go to war because of a single Lie... but, call a war-council?  Send messengers to summon Thanes from distant Steads?  Call the fyrd to arms?  Oh my, yes!  Absolutely!

But that many people -- each moving to act in their own fashion, talking to their own connections (who hadn't heard the original Lie) -- are liable to stumble across reasons to disbelieve, and once someone begins tugging the threads, the Lie begins to unravel for that person.  Soon, those people will begin voicing their concerns to others who were Lied-to (who hadn't yet begun to disbelieve) and shortly thereafter the whole thing falls apart.

The clever Eurmali will be far away when that happens... but most Eurmali will still be at Ground Zero when the Lie implodes on them.

 

Just thinking along those lines for the scenario I proposed - getting an uber-powerful 100POW enchantment...

If I GMed it, it would work.

However, such focus of energy at one point in time would be like a massive beacon throughout the lands that all heroquesters couldn't fail to notice it, and in the midsts of this enchantment process, a whole stack of enemies come charging in to stop it... and mayhem ensues (Thus, the Trickster magic continues on its Disorderly way).

In addition to this, I'd also have it that it makes every other group ramp up their efforts for the upcoming wars! The players thought they had another 10 years to get their shit together? Not any more!!! Two if you're lucky!

(that's on top of having Jar-Eel come along and smack your nose ...).

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Personally i would move 'enhance int' as a variable duration/intensity spell out of play with the Vadeli. Lhankhor Mhy sorcerors would get it as a rune spell will fixed values. Orthodox Malkioni would get it as Zzabur caste magic. Brithini would just be born that smart. Which they would no doubt tell you within 15 seconds of 'hello'.

Also rename 'free int' as 'law rune', while keeping it mostly mechanically the same.

May I suggest this to be a separate thread?? Especially as it's Homebrew/MGV.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

You may interpret ‘munchkin’ to allow such gratuitous and unlikely things if you want - but besides the general verisimilitude issue, there is also ‘if this was practical, NPCs would have already done it and the PCs would be dead’ principle. 

I figure that's how everyone is interpreting 'munchkin'...

What's your definition??

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I literally just said LM would want that spell - and it’s one of the few spells they have easy access to.

"would want", and "have constantly cast on themselves" are two different things...  Given your mention of the Dart Competition, yes I can see IO's having it constantly up. But I doubt that LMs would do the same as a matter of course.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Actually no. Hundreds of lay worshipers of the Invisible God volunteering POW to one enchanter.

And, that's only if we go with my first idea, of using the Enhance INT to uber-power (Intensify) other destructive sorcery spells.

Alternatives are to Lie in order to get other enchantments - of which you can get some nice Stackable Rune spells...

Thunderbolt and Lightning,

Very, very frightening

(to me!)

(or, how about a 100 point Swallow??)

12 minutes ago, davecake said:

Unless they have magic that can cancel the effects of Lie, as we’ve just established they likely do.

I can only presume you're referring to the sorcerers of IO... cos almost no-one else would!

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

Lie isn’t a perfect command spell, it’s a one off blast of belief that must then stand on it’s own. 

True (or Lie :p) But, if it's done correctly, then it has very good standing!

14 minutes ago, davecake said:

Exactly! Not initiating large complex self-interested projects reliably! It’s Eurmal magic, it’s for initiating bedlam! Not project management initiation meetings! 

Yes, but we're not Eurmali, are we?? We have just joined the cult in order to win a munchkin challenge...

15 minutes ago, davecake said:

If the Red Emperor ordered it to be done, it would initiate the large machinery of Empire.

If necessary and appropriate. If necessary, our munchkin could simply say to keep it secret (Lie).

I'm finding it a bit amusing that we're taking on a munchkin challenge, and you are now proceeding to rip such munchkinnery apart... Somewhat antithetical.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes, but your proposed use isn’t really how Lie is supposed to be used either.

I disagree! It's Eurmali - it's supposed to be used for outrageous situations!

2 hours ago, davecake said:

hen being asked for something as extreme as giving up POW for an enchantment, it might be reasonable to, say, inform a colleague who might then realise something has gone on and step in. 

And that's why you focus on the Chief/High Priest and all the assembled congregation.

Also, I seriously doubt that "inform(ing) a colleague" would do much, given the example of Yelm not rising tomorrow morning (until tomorrow morning, or a Divination (which one would assume is because the priests would be asking "why?") The "one full melee round" seems silly with no context (and I presume that context be something like "you are drowning in water")

Creating a huge enchantment for the upcoming Hero Wars (which I presume people are feeling in the air) would make perfect sense! Besides, if the Red Emperor declared it should be done, it would be something no-one would question (although, they'd probably complain about).

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Why would a Lunar sorcerer in a society that includes Dart Competitions and similar skullduggery want to make themselves immune to Madness, one of the major attack spells of their colleagues? Not to mention immunity to Lune accidents too (and Lune ‘accidents’). Or maybe they just hate it when their colleagues talk them into things and always cast it before faculty meetings - or even want to dampen their own Passions, because they are sick of finding themselves doing very foolish things due to their Loyalty (Family) or whatever. 

Oh, yeah, fair enough!

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I don’t think lack of augmentation from Passions is very debilitating for a sorcerer - most will be able to augment with Runes or skills (dance, sing, etc) much more reliably. 

Ah, true true... I was including Runes in that, instead of just Passions.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

It’s just non-trivial to achieve, takes a few years at least. 

Well, yes... but that's what this whole thread is about! (try doing the same thing at Char creation)

2 hours ago, davecake said:

So whatever, we clearly aren’t engaging with any practical considerations here. 

Ummm... it's a munchkin challenge... what do you expect?? 😛

RE: SotLM - hmmmm.... for 2 points you get complete immunity... I don't think that's how sorcery is supposed to work! I would expect a MP v MP challenge - and so the Lie could be boosted. (given that our Eurmali is also an IO worshipper and sorcerer, this would be known.)

I'd also counter your argument with the fact that this is being cast inside (or near) a central congregation - why would any sorcerer have that spell up while in their home city? Especially with the (possibly debilitating) lack of augmentations (useful for helping cast their sorcery).

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I said effective. I don’t consider having your Rune magic only work half the time as very effective. 

Oh, I should have realised!

This line of argument is completely irrelevant - because Illuminates are no longer restricted to having to trade-off opposed Rune percentages!! So, yes, 89% in both Truth and Illusion!

(besides which, for my guy to work, they don't need to have effective IO Rune spells... just access to the IO congregation)

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

You raise a good point, but a definable material object can be made the subject of a lie and then div blocked.  For example:  This ratty old yurt is actually Yada's (son of Tada) underpants, and it grants great herd fertility, so why not trade one of your tribal treasures for it?

Oh, I know how it could be used. And that's profiteering nicely.

However, I was thinking in the context of lying to the entire congregation about needing to make this super-powerful enchanted object, because X deity said it should be so.... I don't think I can come up with a 'definable material object' for that.

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now imagine stacking that with Divination Block from Lanbril.

Just to rain on your parade - Divination Block relates only to a "definable material object". I'm not seeing how you'd make that work in this instance.

(personally, that seems a complete waste .... ok, sure you can't get who actually held the knife, but you could see or get information about the event through other questions/targets)

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Most lies could be revealed with a Divination. Yeah, I know, I'm such a spoilsport, but it's well known how much I despise munchkinnery.

Firstly, I would question the usefulness of that, especially if the Lie is something that the deity may not have access to knowing. Secondly, Divination is susceptible to misinterpretation. And thirdly, a second Lie in that situation would override whatever results you get from the Divination, especially given point 2.

Also, as @Jens points out above, those hearing the Lie are not going to do any Divinations to find out their deity's perspective on it.Especially when the High or Chief Priest commands it. And also especially when it falls within the bounds of 'truth' - ie. given the upcoming Hero Wars that everyone can feel in the air, it would make a lot of sense to start these sorts of preparations. (for that matter, I would expect various groups to be doing something like this anyway... so the only bit about the Lie that's going to be in question is the Trickster person taking it away with them....)

I had a thought last night... how about adding Runic Inspiration when attempting to summon a cult spirit, to add on the spirit's POW & CHA table?

On 10/11/2023 at 2:09 PM, glarkhag said:

But part of me still feels like characters with strong rune affinity ought to progress in related skills a fraction faster.

That wouldn't be a 'fraction' faster.

Once the skill is at a pretty high level and the associated Rune is pretty high, it means +20% or higher on the experience gain check... and up to 50% in the fairly rare  occasion (crit) That means - 100%+ skills no longer having only a couple of percent chance of succeeding, but at least 20%  - unless, the category modifier is a negative! (and, that alone is going to be a big thing!)

Looking at it from a different angle - I can see how some augments work in the usual individual, unique situation, which is a conscious application of those Runes & skills. I don't see how that works with experience, and that seems to just be something the character subconsciously (for the most part) learns something. I doubt many of us could describe the specific (minute) things we learned as part of our experience to learn to ride a bike or drive a car.

I just realised that I've been a complete non-Munchkin!!!!

Although the Lie to get a great Enhance INT spell fired off, I figure those hundreds of POW that the congregation is putting into the enchantment would maybe be better for more powerful spells - especially Rune spells!!!

I'm not going to go through the RBoM to decide which one would be best to win this competition's various categories.

19 hours ago, Darius West said:

That entirely depends on how overt your Thanatari is.  Heads are large, and hard to explain in public.  It is far less risky to just bookworm your way through scrolls and books in a library, especially when there are multiple copies and one might not be missed.  Consume Mind is far more high risk, but the rewards are great too.

I presume you're referring to Devour Book here...

If we're allowing Heroquest powers in the thread, then I'd say a Lhankor Mhy should have a Duplicate Book/Mind spell - similar, but no killing or erasure required. (In fact, I envisage this as being Sorcery - not overly different to a combination of Total Recall and Speak to Mind (for the Mind version). I can see the need to prune it to just 1 skill (say, 1D6/hour for Communication (especially language), Knowledge and Magic skills, with appropriate reductions in time - say, 3 hours for 1D6 for Weapons, Agility and Manipulation skills... it obviously requires Duration.. However, this is just for skills - not Spirit or Rune spells).

Besides which, I don't think the rules could conceivably be fully representational of the entirety of Glorantha (or even of the Dragon Pass area). There will always be exceptions to the rules.

4 minutes ago, davecake said:

It’s fairly difficult (but possible) to do both effectively. To be an effective Irripi Ontor, you want a high Truth Rune. To be an effective Eurmal you want a high Illusion Rune. Now, Illumination does allow you to increase Opposing Runes ( that is, not treat them as Opposed), but you only get to be Illuminated after character creation, and increasing Runes can take a while. 

I think this rule both somewhat reduces the ease of many of the obvious ‘munchkin’ uses of Illumination, and has a lot of interesting flavour to it. It’s obviously useful for the 7Mothers to have access to both Death and Life Magic, for example (your follower of Yanafals Tarnils can Heal Body in a fight, for example), but it requires a lot of effort to have both runes at a high level. 

(it is my feeling that many of the Illuminated members of Irripi Ontor do try to gain understanding of Illusion, and the Illuminated inner circle of the cult teaches sorcerous Mastery of Illusion at least, following the example of IO himself the master of Glamour - but this is a flavour thing, rather than something that greatly changes their magical effectiveness.)

Not necessarily!

You only need to have one of the cult's Runes at 50% - so, you could have your Truth/Illusion sitting at that.

Also, three are the other Runes that could be high - e.g. Disorder, Moon, etc. (Probably need a high Illusion to get your Lie to work reliably).

16 hours ago, Darius West said:

Would you care to discuss which Rune Magics from Eurmal and Irripi Ontor you think would synergize the best?

No need for synergy - nor most Rune Magic.

Eurmal's Lie is OP in the right situations - cos there's no resistance rolls.

Irripi Ontor because of the easier access to various magics - including (and especially) Enhance INT in sorcery. Lie to the heads of the cult (perhaps in the middle of congregation, so that you've got a whole bunch of people hearing it, so that they believe they need to make a huge arse enchantment of Enhance INT... should be able to get at least 100 points worth of Intensity out of it - if not many many more (thousands??)

If necessary, drop another Lie for the MPs to cast it. Now, just imagine what 100+ points of Free INT can do to either basic sorcery or Lunar Magics.

(One could also Lie oneself a few very high powered spirits this way - for the MPs and additional spells).

And, don't forget that the rules tell you to go munchkinney in creating your spells! Combining Moon and Fire is pretty to watch from a distance, I'd suggest also that Earth and Fire would be horrific as well - effectively lava. As mentioned above, the advantage over Maran Gor's Rune Magic is the duration.

Or, Rogue Wave in the Mirrorsea around Nochet??

Sorcery is very powerful when it's being abused!

15 hours ago, davecake said:

Though if you want a cool Illuminated magician that is probably the best magician in the game practically available - Irripi Ontor (already like Lhankor May but with devastating combat magic like Mindblast), go for sorcery and learn no spirit magic yourself to maximise Free INT, when you become a Sage and get an allied spirit, get that to learn all the spirit magic you need. Once you become Illuminated, join the Red Goddess cult, and learn Red Goddess magic (which also uses your maxed out Free INT). You also have the option of learning Cyclic INT on Full Moon days, and casting huge duration sorcery spells. Now join Jakaleel and become a shaman. 
And this is all stuff that the cults themselves don’t even object too. In fact, it’s basically just a few steps on the road towards becoming a Major Classes Magician from the Lunar College of Magic. Join Deezola and get some good elementals and healing (Heal Body) maybe?

Don't forget to double your INT with a good enhancement Rune Spell (like you can with STR or CHA).

However, well within the bounds of the rules (rather than having to force the rules, or include Heroquests) - stand before a congregation of sorcerers** (like a full temple's worth - IOs would clearly apply), and Lie (Eurmal-like) that your god has demanded that an artefact of great proportions needs to be made, and everyone needs to put their POW into it - that 'it' being the Enhance INT spell... so, can you end up with an object with an enchantment of 100+ points of Intensity. Since you're an IO, you should have easy access to (well, any spell really, but...) Moonfire... (note, Create Fissure and Blast Earth are Instant spells, so can't be Extended... Moonfire could last for days (or years... or decades.....although, it is Active (but, again, the rules allow you to do your own thing with sorcery, such as making up your own spells)).

(**Note - that's if it's ruled they all need to know the spell to contribute to it. If not, then just use your imagination on how many you can get once you've convinced the highest of high priests (or the Lunar Emperor himself))

Your Enhanced INT of (pick a number) obviously also allows you to affect all your other spells as well.

So, to address directly @Darius West's challenging question - What cults do you join in what order to make the most heinously OP character? - the answer is "Eurmal", and probably Irripi Ontor (as @davecake has said above!) Two steps - finished! (the sad thing is, it's actually probably quite easy to do this...)

11 minutes ago, Steve said:

The Earth Goddesses - Cults of Glorantha.

Yep... a book I don't own...

So, any hints on what was on p23??

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

See EG, The Husband-protectors, page 23

Are you referring to a book that's only recently come out, and that I don't own?

Or something else that I haven't understood??

On 10/3/2023 at 5:39 PM, David Scott said:

Rune magic: Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, Incarnate Ancestor

I see this as less of a Glorantha thing, and more of an RQ thing.

We players use such terms.

In Glorantha, I'd see it as the spirit itself giving one of its relatives a way to call him/her to allow it to do things. And, since said spirit is a Hero, it's got some way to do this. "I give you the ability to call upon me when you are in need" or similar.

So, again, no need for a shaman. Clear reason for a GT or priest to be able to do it.

And, ultimately, not too unlike a spirit society, where each spirit has some connection - in this case, by blood relationship while they were alive.

On 10/4/2023 at 12:49 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

Which seems to me to reflect the well known Real World fertility of volcanic soils. 

So I don't know why Lodril doesn't have Fertilize.  Or maybe he does and we will find out when the Pelorian book comes out.

Using the real world for a reason would also justify Engizi having it as well, since the floodwaters bring more silt each year.