Shiningbrow

9 hours ago, g33k said:

Your instinct is excellent, I think!  John Boyle was writing a Gloranthan novel.  I'm unclear why he moved it, but it apparently never got published as-such... but a VERY minor re-write has seen it published as a Hittite novel, Queen's Heir.  Reviewers say that it's still clearly Gloranthan.  I haven't gotten it (yet).

thanks for the suggestion! 

In searching, I found this interview with him from earlier this year, in which he talks about Greg and the Glorantha connection... http://www.castaliahouse.com/john-boyle-the-queens-heir/

I just had a thought on this topic.

Some occupational experience is listed as.optional skill choices (e.g., first weapon, a more skill, etc) rather than a specific (e.g., Ride, Herd).

During occupational experience checks, can those options been changed? Or do they need to be the same as that chosen at character creation?

6 hours ago, MMan said:

 

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of everybody being initiates of some cult... I might run my Glorantha with around 10-20% of people of being initiates in any cult, and maybe 1-2% being Rune Priests / Lords... I'll have to think about it.

In the Adventurers book, the Colymar tribe has about 12,300 members. Of those, only about 100 are higher than Initiate level...  below your 1-2%. 

Although I imagine many of the tribe will have the requisite skills (herd, farm, etc), I doubt most will sacrifice their POW on Rune Spells (but maybe add to a clan wyter).

Even if they do add to their RP store, they specifically have to choose which non-Common Rune Spells they want... For a herder, most likely Cloud Clear, Leap,  Increase/Decrease Wind. If they herd sheep, Voriof's Command Sheep... Absolutely no blasting happening!!!

On 8/25/2019 at 2:29 AM, Joerg said:

They are spears, which points to a sky origin

Is this supposed to be punny?

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

No problem there. You don't have to approach either via Change/Mobility or Stasis, there is Storm for Orlanth, and Truth for LM, and you can be strong in both.

Apparently, not even great Lhankor Mhy himself can clearly say whether his father is Acos or the Cosmic Mountain.

I was actually being a little facetious... 

My Glorantha would be Truth and Law... But I don't see either as unbending and immutable. (Strange position, I.know!!)

So, you can't be a good little Orlanthi *and* Lhankor Mhy.... 

4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

We should all be fortunate that the Malkioni have rejected their God Learner ways, and have retreated back to less dangerous Rokarism and New Hrestolism.

Pooey!

49 minutes ago, davecake said:

The seduction is the only one that strictly requires magic that isn’t common divine, but all of them are within the range of magic known by an Orlanthi (Charisma spell from Eurmal covers seduction). 

So... is your entire argument based solely around Orlanthi?

" I need to travel across a barrier, I need to defend against spirits, i need to camp in enemy territory and not get captured, I need to catch a thief, I need to enhance my ability to seduce someone, etc, "

I'm guessing you're referring to either Leap or Flight to get over the barrier... Spirit is obvious... being in enemy territory is probably Warding (and it's not going to stop you getting captured, although it does help a little)...maybe Leap to catch the thief (that is, of course, if you know the the thief is and where s/he is...)... enhance abilities to seduce - as you said, not common, and needs to be specifically chosen, and cast using a different Rune (Fertility, Illusion or Beast..)

Can sorcery have responses to all those situations? It can... Yes, you will have to prepare in advance for it (spell selection). Some may be common (Protective Circle will probably be a no-brainer -so  there's Warding covered).  Some less common - Barrier issues? Fly or Summon/Bind Air Elemental... Thief? Geomancy... you can run, but you can't hide! Dominate Human (who needs to just seduce??)

As I've said (5 times now??), sorcery has options that Rune magic will never have.... from the above calculations on casting percentages, yes, they can even be cast reliably at starting level... and if not - do it again a few minutes later!

You're arguing that Divine Magic is much better than Sorcery, because sorcery is a waste of time, so why bother with it? I'm arguing that sorcery is powerful and useful. I'm not arguing that Divine magic isn't powerful or useful...

Basically - you're over-emphasising the negatives of sorcery, while over- emphasising the positives of theism...

13 hours ago, davecake said:

Why would you think combat is the only situation where “in the heat of the moment” counts? For any situation that is a bit surprising - I need to travel across a barrier, I need to defend against spirits, i need to camp in enemy territory and not get captured, I need to catch a thief, I need to enhance my ability to seduce someone, etc, the sorcerous answer is going to usually be the same - “ I can definitely solve your problem , just give me a year” - which you continue, for some reason, to confuse with being able to achieve anything interesting in a game. 

I am seriously wondering precisely which cult your theist belongs to such that they have the type ability to respond to each of those situations equally.... 

Sure, some cults have some ability to answer those, and some spirit magicians can do the same to some limited extent. 

So, please... Give me the theist examples for each of the above...

I don't know of anyone who can reliably respond to each random situation given. So, taking out on the poor old sorcerer is is unfair. Especially since we're talking about a *pure* sorcerer... Do *pure* theists or Spirit magicians have the same flexibility?

13 hours ago, davecake said:

Your defences of sorcery are looking increasingly like very flammable straw men. 

I think you don't understand the straw man fallacy... Especially since you don't actually address specific points I make.

13 hours ago, davecake said:

While the vision of sorcery you seem to advocating seems to provide mostly the role playing experience of constantly explaining how you are unable to do anything useful now, but definitely something by next Dark season. 

This! This alone (although I'd been thinking it for a while) tells me you just have some sort of problem with sorcery in general. Maybe the RQ3 introduction left a sour taste in your mouth? But there's definitely something that says you'll never ever say a positive word about it.... 

13 hours ago, davecake said:

A Lhankor Mhy is going to really regret using all those points on sorcery spells when they realise how far behind it puts them in trying to become a Sage

Until, of course, there's a new scroll that needs translation* and interpretation, and you're the only one with Logician to translate it, and then to add to the extra knowledge skills to understand what it all means... So, sure, you won't have all your Sage skills super high to advance up the cult ranks... But you *can* have *EVERY* knowledge skill over 100%... Al(most) all Lore skills (don't understand why Spirit Lore is different...), every R/W, Battle, Bureaucracy, even herd and farm... And one presumes a similar spell for Communication skills can be created as well.

(*Translation Rune spell gives you only 15 minutes...)

To me, that screams flexibility far more than extra (fairly similar) effects from additional RPs spent.

13 hours ago, davecake said:

So in terms of flexibility of any given single sorcerer, sorcerers start at a disadvantage, and stay behind. Now sure, the sorcerer has more flexibility of parameters, and a few advantages. Duration is the big one. A few disadvantages too - the mechanics of their spells often are a bit less powerful or reliable per point, and their effects are often (but not always) narrower. But in terms of their ability to flexibly respond to an unplanned situation? The number of magical effects an individual can call on?  Clearly, they start far behind and stay there. 

OMGs.... qualified slightly positive words...

Yes, for many similar spells, the sorcery is going to be about half as powerful per point as Rune Spells - that's always been the case, along with spirit magic! MP vs POW... of course! (However, they can stack to higher than most theists would be willing to spend their RPs on...if that was even an option). Some individual spell effects, as written with the small amount we have currently available, are narrower... but again, you can create your own spells (even if they are at low starting values... but, average 10-15% magic modifier, add 25% or more from ritual practices, and you can attempt a casting with reasonable success fairly regularly (for a long duration spell). Law of averages, that spell will be cast! Add someone in the background who is chanting or singing (or, more likely, telling everyone around to shut up) for another 20% or more... 60% ain't bad! (add in the effects of sympathetic magic - season, time, magical objects etc... and it's looking at 100% or more... yes, I grant the rare circumstances of those all coinciding... although Day and Components aren't too hard to get right).

Re: number of magical effects - which theist can access magics to ALL Elements? And to ALL Forms? Without having to slowly up-skill? Sure, it takes time, but this is where I consider sorcery much more flexible than theistic or spirit magic!

Can they react as effectively to unplanned situations as well as theists or spirit magicians? Depends entirely upon the situation and the magician... Fundamental fact - no one individual is going to be able to handle every and all situations effectively by themselves (until they've hit real hero level)...

So your "Clearly, they start far behind and stay there. " I disagree with! Especially if you take into account a party with 2 theists vs 2 sorcerers... if the theists have 3 RPs, then between them they have... 16 spells (12 of which are identical). The sorcerers can have 12 (or more) between them - all of them unique. What's more, those 2 sorcerers could (potentially) teach each other their unique spells - something the theists will never be able to do! (this is the definition of 'flexibility that I go with!)

9 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Familiar spirits are indispensable for sorcerers.

Not if you tap... 😁

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Though we don’t really disagree that much. Just change ‘unexpected immediate combat’ to ‘any situation that requires a flexible response, including all adventuring’, then I only think sorcerers are several years behind their theistic counterparts... 

I am actually shocked you think Divine magic is actually more "flexible"... 

I'm obviously not stupid, and therefore I'm not talking about 1 RP = 10+ spell choices. I'm talking about the overall situations in which Rune Magic from any one cult is going to be appropriate for any (and all) given situations. 

I've said before, sorcery has the ability to create spells that no theist is ever going to have. 

So, I can only presume we have a different standard for what constitutes "flexibility". 

(Q: when you create a character, are you allowing the Philosopher to put their ppersonal skill allotments (+25/+10%) into sorcery spells??? Philosopher - 20/10/10. Lhankor Mhy - 25/10/10. Plus Magic Modifier (INT???) of probably 5-15% (CHA is the easiest stat to increase... Just add bling) plus Glamour (or its sorcerous equivalent) for +10% or more). Plus personal selection. If you super specialise, that's one spell around 85%, and two others at around 60%. So, what's your definition of "reliably"??  

If you don't specialise, you could have half a dozen or more spells at 25% or higher.

Then, every season, cult/occupation experience check... 

And that's only using the LM/Philosopher combination. I'm sure when we see a devoted western write-up, we'll see devoted sorcerers with higher starting percentages (if not, something is seriously wrong!! If a character can get numerous skills at 66% or higher for a few weapons plus others, the devoted sorcerer should get the same in their most used occupational skills!)

1 hour ago, davecake said:

In the heat of the moment is literally the point of the argument.

Personally, if that's the only type of game you're playing - all hack'n'slash, no RP or out of combat situations, then why play RQ? One of the overriding reasons for this game is the world, community, alliances, etc involved... Personally, I don't like just grinding.

I think you also missed (ignored) the point about being out of Rune Spells by the third fight. If you're out "adventuring" for a few weeks, you really have to limit your casting. 

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Literally the few spells you choose at character creation might end up being the only ones you are ever able to cast reliably.

Again, reliability is only required in a heat of the moment situation (see above). 

Re: Spirit Magic - do what all good devoted sorcerers do - trap a couple of spirits and force them to cast as needed!

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Pin general, a divine magic initiate gets a limited use, but powerful, Swiss Army multitool, with a useful capacity for most situations they might find themselves in. The sorcerer gets a couple of big hammers, and spends the rest of their adventuring career more or less hoping they only encounter the right kind of nail. 

Sorry for the split post...

Again, I disagree... As per above and creation of new spells.

(Just to clarify my stance... Personally, I'd play LM or IO, and take all 3 options 😄)

3 hours ago, davecake said:

(except you, Lhankor Mhy and friends who made Bad Choices).

I don't understand this... LM sorcerers can still learn Spirit Magic... You just don't get to choose any at character creation. Nothing stopping you from purchasing later...

3 hours ago, davecake said:

My argument is that sorcerers are lacking in flexibility, not about overall capacity. But it’s notable that problem with flexibility doesn’t go away either - an experienced member of a Rune cult is also learning new Rune magic spells as the sorcerer is (slowly) learning new spells

I'm disagreeing with the flexibility angle. I suggest they have more, and in almost every situation other than the unexpected immediate combat, are probably better than theists... Especially anything taking more than a few minutes (unless you want to use up RPs on Extension). 

Your theist is learning new spells about the same rate (or slower!) than the sorcerer (unless we're taking availability into account). The theists need to succeed in their POW-gain rolls. The sorcerer needs to find a book, scroll, teacher, or just work it out over 1 season (at INT x ?%). Given that the sorcerer can effectively mimic (to some degree) *any* Rune or Spirit magic spell, plus create others that the theists (and definitely shamans) can't, I'm baffled by this "lack of flexibility" argument (overall... Not specifically in the heat of the moment options you've said).

Ummm, I know it's a.magical rite and all, but just because the Humakti severs his/her kin & clan ties doesn't mean the clan feels the same way. Given the magic, perhaps they should... But that would impose rather large consequences on this "Resheathing" ... One private ritual, and suddenly everyone around you loses all their feelings about you??? Hmmmm....

18 hours ago, Minlister said:

You drive a hard bargain. I will go up to three clacks. And a gold wheel.

Your bargaining skills need work!

13 hours ago, Crel said:

.<snip>

I'm not disagreeing with the math, but am trying to point out that playing a pure sorcerer isn't a stupid idea and a waste of time.

A pure sorcerer in a game is a great boon, and quite clearly capable of things the theist not only isn't, but will never be!

In most small sudden skirmishes, the theist is going to win hands down... The first time... And probably also the second, and depending on rank or experience, the third... 

After that, you're out of RP, and miles from a shrine... And the sorcerer us laughing at you. Cos she's still got all of her buffs up, and can cast more. (Depending on the spell choice, and adventurers - it might just be the sorcerer who has to help the theist where the nearest shrine is!) At worst, (assuming spirits, not MP enchantment) the sorcerer only has to wait 1 day to be fully recharged.

(Also, re: Runes... Don't forget that when casting Associated Cult spells, you're not using your Rune anymore, but theirs).

Both clearly have pros and cons. And both excel in different situations. Pure sorcerer is a viable, useful option.

5 hours ago, davecake said:

My main point though is that a sorcerer can have some reasonable magic against spirit magicians - if they take a few years to specialise in it, they can be roughly equal to a beginning initiate

Except... that a beginning initiate gets to cast all of 3 spells about once per season... at around 60% chance. That includes any stacking...

Compared to the beginning sorcerer, who can cast a few spells with ok duration, almost as many times as they want.

The Rune caster is also limited in both number and type of spells that the sorcerer isn't as much. Sure, they can create a matrix, but otherwise they're limited to CHA in RPs (unless in multiple cults). In theory, the sorcerer can create as many damn spells as they want with the Runes and Techniques they have - including combinations... 1-2 seasons (depending on GM fiat, etc) can have that sorcerer casting a spell that leaves the Rune caster gasping in amazement... (Moonfire would be an example... but change the Moon for something else). Once you've learnt 3 Elemental Runes, you're really set for stuff no cult can reproduce (yes, I know... not 'reliably' unless you specialise - but even then, I'd suggest the sorcerer can come up with spells that help augment sorcery).

7 hours ago, davecake said:

It's true that Dismiss Magic can cost a few RPs if you are up against powerful magic - but a single point can dispel a Befuddle or a Demoralise or a Madness, which can turn the tide of battle if it is on your best fighter. 

Multispell is obviously spectacularly useful in combat for anyone that has multiple useful Spirit magic spells, especially if they have a few stored magic points. Also stacked Disruption is very powerful. 

Warding is a great defence spell in any combat where you are defending a position and have a minute or so to prepare. 

Soul Sight lets you fight in the dark, lets you know which enemies are more magically dangerous, and lets you know about defensive magic so you can target offensive magic and Dismiss Magic appropriately. Essentially, it is useful in any combat involving magic casting, and more besides. 

Summon and Command Cult Spirit let you summon a useful ally (yes, in combat, it is not a ritual) and Command it to attack your enemies (or do whatever else it can do, which can include casting other magic, maybe healing - almost every cult has some useful spirits), and major cults can have many. 

I have no idea what you even mean by 'stronger than Rune Magic levels' - there is no stackability limit on Spirit Block. 

The sorcery spell Spirit Warding is less effective than Spirit Block - a Spirit Warding will never 100% protect you against spirit attack, so if you have no way of attacking the spirits in return you will never be in a situation where you can ignore Spirit attack (3 points worth lets you effectively ignore Spirit Combat from normal spirits below POW 24, for example, no matter how many). In situations in which there are a lot of spirits, this difference is significance. 

Plus this is such a false comparison, because it is comparing a sorcerer who has effectively spent years in preparation to a normal divine magic user who has made no particular effort to prepare for spirits at all. Which really gets at my main point - you are effectively saying 'why, a sorcerer could imitate normal common divine magic by merely spending several decades in study, many points of POW in enchantments, and adequately preparing for the particular incident some hours or days in advance, and then he would clearly be superior to an initiate'. 

Lets dive into this example to illustrate the issue

Let us compare in the situation in which the spirit attack is not know to be happening in advance, that is in an adventure situation in which there is no particular reason to suspect spirit combat.

A character with Common divine magic access can be protected from spirits by simply casting Spirit Block at the beginning of the first melee round. 

A sorcerer can be protected from spirits by

- spending a season or two learning Spirit Warding in advance. 

- spending a few more seasons and/or a LOT of experience rolls to get their Spell ability high enough to be reliably cast. OR have happened to spend a lot of (time and magic point) resources i casting a long Duration version of the spell as part of their regular routine. If they have cast it in advance, it is probably a relatively low level so it is likely only defending against attack around 50% of the time. 

- if they have not cast it in advance, they have to spend two rounds or so casting, while under spirit attack, precluding them from attacking back - so if they fail to cast the spell they are usually in a much worse position than if they had never tried to. 

So the message is a sorcerer who spends multiple seasons of time and significant other resources is able to respond to spirit attacks in a less reliable and more resources heavy way than a beginning divine magic using PC who has put literally no thought into the issue at all. 

Now, multiple that by however many common divine spells you think are useful. We end up with a result something roughly like given a decade or so of preparation and significant investment of other resources, a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems with something like the flexibility of an average  beginning initiate. 

Methinks you're deliberately ignoring many factors here.

You talk of 'flexibility' of the average beginning initiate - while bypassing the POW sacrificed to cast all those spells. Once the sorcerer has sacrificed the POW for the Rune or Techniques, they can spend the season in learning any spells associated with them (obviously, with other Runes and Techniques as well...).

All of the Divine magic spells are limited by the number of Rune Points you have available... and unless you're using Extension, they're lasting all of 15 minutes. What's worse, once gone, it's going to take a while to be able to cast them again (ie, regain the Rune Points). The smart sorcerer is going to inscribe most spells to keep Free INT at max (POW equivalent), and perhaps the occasional Spirit Binding Matrix for the MPs.

It's amusing that you say Warding is great if you have a minute or 2 to spare... when that's your biggest objection to sorcery (time - although I'm not ignoring time to learn to reliable levels). And Protective Circle allows any protective spell cast on it to defend all within it (ie, your Spirit Block now does everyone!

Each of the spells (except Multispell) you mentioned above have sorcery equivalents which don't suffer the drawback of being lost as soon as they're cast, and can be kept on 'permanently'. (sure, different effects, but still...).

Sure, your chances of casting immediately after you've learned the spell are pretty sucky, but you can enhance that... and then, the next day, you can do it all over again with another spell which can last weeks/months...  If they're tapping, then they can cast until the cows come home (an obvious reference to Broken Tower...). Even ignoring the augment and ritual practices, if you get it wrong, try it again a minute (or hour) later...

Going back to spirits.... the sorcerer can (granted, the next round) take your bound spirits off you - and even have them attack you! Unless your attacking people of your own cult (possible with Sartar...). That's something no Rune Spell is doing - and certainly not Common ones! Given the melee round or 2, and it's also possible your Summon and Command Cult Spirit has just been made a liability!

"a sorcerer will be able to respond to unexpected threats and common problems"

Yes... and it's this "unexpectedness" that's largely at the core of this. I agree that your average initiate (and even RL/GT/RP) will have some nice flexibility of options for very little investment.... for the first unexpected threat... and maybe even the second, and possibly even the third... but once they've used up all their Rune Points for the season,, they're SOL, and the sorcerer is still casting away with full functionality.

And the cruelty of Neutralize Rune shouldn't be under-estimated.

Again, I'm not trying to dismiss Rune Magic, and it's certainly powerful. I'm just arguing against the idea that sorcery isn't very useful for players (which seems to be your stance), or that it's not flexible.

(btw - is there a Runefix that makes INT part of the magic category modifier? It's just weird that sorcery is based off CHA instead of INT).

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

You clearly know more than me. I guess I will stop working with the developers on it.

Well that's a great logical argument!

(There's a technical term for it, but I've forgotten)

The point - one that appears to be deliberately ignored - is lack of any information is not a good sign, especially in the gaming industry where so many fail to come to fruition. Granted, even those that do get announced are liable to fail to appear (Or drastically beyond original... And updated... ETA).

But hey, if you think you know what the fans want better than the actual fans telling you, keep on doing what your doing. (I.e., Don't suggest Black Shamrock put up an announcement). As @styopa said, the trend for a while has been communication - not silence.

11 hours ago, davecake said:

Common Divine Magic is a great big pile of useful divine magic, much of it both castable (instantly) in combat and of great tactical utility in combat, and practical utility out of it.

Please enlighten me... Spirit Block and Dismiss Magic (plus Heal Wound).. Good in combat (maybe). Two of them likely going to cost you a few RP to be effective.

Divination is of limited use (limited to what the God could possibly know).

The others certainly have their uses... Occasionally... 

 Spirit Block has a sorcery equivalent which can be cast in advance (to stronger than Rune Magic levels).

I'm not dismissing the use of Rune Magic, and I get what you're saying... But I'm disagreeing with the usefulness of it compared to sorcery (except in sudden melee combat... Which, even Common Rune Spells lack great value, and you need to keep a tight rein on).

2 hours ago, g33k said:

I have a suspicion (and I bet the videogame developers and marketers are really on top of this issue!) that in that particular world, there can be a downside of too-early an announcement getting negative buzz of the "yeah, they announced it YEARS ago, I think it's just vaporware at this point" sort of rumors/commentary.  The software world is big into accusations of "vaporware," I know...

The'll work on building buzz and interest when they expect they can produce a product at/near the apex of the interest-cycle they can generate... if that makes sense?

That's actually my point. By not having the announcement, it doesn't look encouraging.

34 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

AAA games are typically announced only a year before or so, even though they have 3 to 5+ years of development. In the AA and indie world, it really depends a lot, but lately a lot of studios have been sharing less and less because of the potential/precedents for utterly toxic and violent backlash from angry gamers.

Yeah, it really depends on the game..

But, there's an official announcement (as per this thread) which doesn't even get a mention on their site... 

Silence doesn't generate interest.

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

You are aware how long it takes to develop a computer game? Just like with Call of Cthulhu, I wouldn't expect anything until about a year or so before launch.

I'm referring to mention... On their site, it doesn't even mention that they have the rights to the game, let alone any developers diaries, etc. 

There's just some vague reference to an RPG being done... 

A year??? Most games are in discussion perhaps 5 years before launching. 3 years is typical. 

1 hour ago, 7Tigers said:

Let's hope mods will be allowed in future and enigmatic Black Shamrock Official Runequest PC game...

 

Almost 6 months on, and their website still doesn't have anything about it!