Kloster

19 minutes ago, Thyrwyn said:

so a defender with a 200% weapon skill does not reduce the chance of every attacker by 100% - only the first attacker against which they declare a Parry. If the defender does not declare a Parry, then the attacker’s skill is not affected. 

That's right.

19 minutes ago, Thyrwyn said:

For each subsequent declared Parry, the attackers’ skill would be reduced by 20% less. 

TL,DR: against defenders with weapon skills over 100%, only DECLARED Parries reduce attackers’ chance to hit. 

Also right. This is why Soltakss's idea to split (even under 100%) instead of a flat -20% is a changer.

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

And yes, this thread has become more of a general discussion on the mechanics of high skills and I think that's ok.

Yes, you are right. This is more a problem of the way high skills are working than the effect of sword trance (this spell being only one of the ways of having a very high ability). There is no difference (except duration and not being dispellable) in effect between a 200% skill and a 100% skill plus sword trance boosted by 10 magic points.

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I think you're missing  the key point here, the fact that the guy with a skill above 100% won't need to parry much at all. because he is reducing all of his opponent's chance to hit him. For example:

Let's say we have a lone fighter with Sword 150%. He get's attacked by a group of dark troils, each of whom have maul at 50%. Now, from what people are saying about RQG, the swordsman, due to his high sword skill, reduces the maul skill of all of the trolls by 50%. So the trolls are now attacking at the default of 5% and do not pose much of a threat.

If that is indeed how it works in RQG, then it is in stark contrast to every over version of RQ, including RQ2.

 

Not really, because this is the Ability over 100% that counts, not the skill. That means that if the ability is reduced because of splitting, it is (or at least can be) below 100%. In that case, it is less a problem because the attacker's ability is either not reduced or much less reduced. I think the rule can be understood both ways.

9 hours ago, JohannesH said:

How about other serious wounds, like poked eyes, sliced ears, broken tooth that don't kill but can be troublesome for characters?.

Does not exist in Runequest (at least in the rules).😀

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes, I also think this is the Parry part that causes problem.

Right.

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It did, but in old Strombringer combat skills were capped at 100% (plus any bonuses for a demon weapon) so there was a upper limit to how many parries one could reasonably get off, plus the opponent's attack skills weren't bumped down to the gutter. 

Also right. I forgot about the cap. Thanks.

And Jump (because climb is only upwards), but yes.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

It was like this in RQ2.

RQ3 dropped the rule, which, for me, was a big mistake, so I have usually brought it back in RQ games that I play.

My memories of RQ2 are far away (and my copy is 200km away) but IIRC, the Anti Parry effect for attack above 100% was concerning only Rune Lords. If this is the case, having (because of a spell) a Sword of Humakt that becomes a true embodiment of Death does not bother me.

Whatever the case, this rule added to RQIII should not (in my opinion) break the game because you can parry more than 1 attack only by splitting a score above 100%. Even if you were boosted to 300% Parry by a spell, with 6 opponents, you have only a 50% score!

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

In RQ2, you had to split your Parry against multiple foes, so a 200% Parry against two attackers means having 2 100% parries, against 4 foes means 4 50% Parries.

In RQG, you parry at 200%, 180%, 160% and so on, which means you are probably unstoppable. 

Yes, I also think this is the Parry part that causes problem.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I can see why this rule was added, I think it originally came from Stormbringer/Elric but I am not sure, in that it gives lower-skilled PCs a better chance against multiple opponents. 

The rule was in Stormbringer, but IIRC, with -30% per Parry. It is not bad by itself. The problem comes from the fusion of Attack and Parry in a single skill + the above100% rule + the multiple parry rule. If you remove 1 of those, the unstoppable becomes stoppable again.

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

Sure, but if I remember correctly, not all shields provide good missile protection and have more HP than weapons.

Correct, but even when they provide bad missile protection and have less HP, they at least provide some missile protection and passive cover, and even a Medium Shield as 12 HP (as many as a Broadsword for around  half the cost).

2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

So let us summarize. The big problem is the combination of the following "new additions" to RQ:

1. Attack and Parry combined into a single skill
2. Scores over 100% subtracting from the opposing score in all contested rolls
3. Multiple parries per round at a cumulative -20% penalty
4. Reusable Rune spells easily available to initiates 

All of the above are good, solid rules already tested in other variants of BRP (1 is in BGB, OpenQuest, Legend, Mythras and Revolution, 2 is in Legend and Mythras, 3 is in the BGB and somehow optional in Revolution, 4 is in OpenQuest, Legend, Mythras and Revolution).  However, when combined together, the result is

• Very high skilled characters (200+) become killing machines in melee, able to overcome even a mob - which is quite heroic, and thus more a feature than a bug. Harrek is supposed to stand over a pile of dead bodies, after all.
• Death Rune cult initiates, even rookie ones, can obtain the same result by expending one single Rune point and the equivalent of a common matrix in Magic Points. Well, maybe this is a bit questionable, instead. Too easy a shortcut to Harrek-level melee effectiveness.

Well summarized. I completely agree with you!

2 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

I dunno, once you put all the facts in line, the point which might benefit from a small tweak becomes quite obvious, IMO. 

I don't think everybody here has the same 'obvious' on this point.

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

I disagree merging Attack and Parry in one skill is a problem here. After all, the problem would be the same if Sword Trance had an effect on both Attack and Parry skills.

It is a problem, though, for people using a shield or an off-hand weapon, as it requires them to build 2 separate skills. Pendragon didn't have this issue, as shield use was incorporated in the weapon skill.

It is not a problem in itself. I don't like it because for me it evokes Stormbringer, not Runequest, but it is not a problem. It becomes part of a problem when mixed with rules that are not coming from Stormbringer, i.e. the reduction of others skills when yours is above 100%. It is also, as you pointed, a disadvantage for people using shield and weapon vs people using a single weapon, but for me, this is counterbalanced by the advantages of the shield (more HP, protection vs missiles, passive cover).

9 hours ago, g33k said:

I believe the RAW states that all 3 get their combat skills reduced by 50% (the amount needed to take the highest down to 100%).

The two at 50% are stuck at an effective 0% skill, so they follow the rule that 05 & below is a hit and 01 is a crit; they miss on 06+ and they fumble on 96+ (fumbling as often as they hit at all; ouch!)

The 150% (now 100%) combatant will do their 1st parry at 100% and their 2nd parry at 100-20= 80%.  So, yeah -- looks like the 50% guys get their weapons damaged a LOT... likely (by the odds) having their weapons destroyed before they ever land a blow... although my gut-check says they aren't likely to see that happen, because 150now100 will have disabled/killed them faster than their weapons would have gotten destroyed.

If I have mis-analyzed this, I welcome anyone correcting me.

I have the same reading as you.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't know that the RAW addresses the issue of whether there's an upper limit for how many combatant's can have their skill reduced in this fashion; in my prior example (of 6 Trollkin in a 1st ring (with short weapons), and 12 in an outer ring (with longer weapons)) would have EIGHTEEN skill-reductions.  That... does not pass my common-sense test... but AFAIK it does in fact match the RAW.  😲

I haven't found anything either ... and this is why I have stolen reused your example.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

I think my other point remains valid, that missiles/spells/spirits/poison/etc all bypass *Trance spells, so they don't really "break" the system as a whole. 

Yes.

9 hours ago, g33k said:

But if the Horde/Mob is no longer a threat... hmm.  That changes the feel of the game

Yes, the horde menace is much reduced by the way abilities over 100% are managed, and this is agrgavated by Sword Trance. And yes, the feeling of the game is changed.

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Secondly, the problem doesn't appear to be with Sword Trance per say, but with attack skills reducing parry, combined with mutiple parries, ans weapons taking damage. The basic problem, such as it is, remains regardless of how skill gets over 100%. IMO that seems much more serious too, as eventually I would expect Rune Lords and the like to have combat skills over 100%. 

Completely agree here. You can add 'and Parries reducing Attacks'.

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No, that is a problem with ultra lethal actions. It's like how back in the days when most rifles fired one shot per trigger pull, the guy who carried an automatic weapon or flamethrower  would draw lots of enemy fire as soon as he opened up. He was just so much more lethal than the rest of the people in his squad that it painted a target on his back. Likewise, if one character appear much more lethal than the rest, then he will not only draw heavier fire, but will also draw more extreme responses because the opposition cannot endure the possibility of his attacks.

You get that same sort of response with any sort of rapid increases in lethality that the opposition can spot. The reason why the NPCs fighting the Humakti will kill him is because that is exactly what he is doing to them, so they will do whatever they can to stop him.It's just simple escalation.

In Shadowrun, this was called the 'geek the mage' effect.

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

From what I've read here, and please, somebody correct me if I misunderstood something, what seems to be the real problems are:

• Very high parry skill is reducing the opponent's attack skill. That's new to RQG
• That this reduction applies to multiple opponents, without breaking up the skill. That is also new to RQG.

Yes.

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Most of the other stuff, such as Sword Trace, or cumulative parries might exacerbate these problems, but the two above are game breakers.

Exacerbates, yes. Game breaker, can be.

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Now, somebody with 200% parry becomes virtually unhittable by a group of sub 100% skill melee opponents. And that too is new to RQG. Before, highly skilled fighters were still vulnerable to double and triple teams. 

Yes, it seems. You need now more opponents, because whatever, the parry is reduced to 100%, and after 6 opponents, both attacker and defender will be reduced to 05%. Combat can becomes very long, although the above 100% rule was supposed to shorten combat by avoiding the wait for criticals at high skill levels.

On 1/22/2019 at 9:58 AM, HreshtIronBorne said:

What's the largest Variable Spell you have in your Glorantha's?

A Bladesharp 10, that an Humakti slowly increased and put to a spell Matrix (RQIII).

7 minutes ago, Anunnaki said:

All I can add is my players were SUPER GLAD that my wife's Babeester Gor character had Axe Trance when that accursed broo warband took a more "intimate" interest in the adventuring group (Axe Trance works identically to Sword Trance, for those who haven't read or played RQG yet -- just axes instead of swords).  I'm fairly certain that they didn't consider the spell to be "broken" ... And, as GM, I really didn't have any issues with it being used in play -- couple of broos got some hits in regardless. There are situations when this character is meant to shine and this spell meant that she did. Humakti, I'm sure are the same.

Now, I could have used Dispel Magic or Dismiss Magic against the Bab Gor (I didn't). We are still playing out RQG as written to see how we feel about different aspects of the game and my players are still new to RQ and Glorantha in general. Point here is that the spell didn't really overpower this encounter. It shifted the balance to where the players were more confident in their ability to defeat their opponents (which might bite them in the arse later, but we will see), but most importantly they had Maximum Game Fun.

I completely agree with you, Axe Trance is not broken, work perfectly fine in a RQIII rules environment and (I think) is not overpowered. Sword Trance, which is basically the same spell for swords instead of Axes is thus (for me) not broken. But It causes problems in a RQG rules environment, especially because:

- the way abilities over 100% are managed compared to RQIII.

- the possibility to parry with the weapon that attacks the same round (in previous Chaosium RQs, it was possible only with 2handed weapons).

- the multiple parry with same weapon/shield (imported from Stormbringer).

- the single weapon skill (instead of Attack and Parry skills in previous Chaosium RQs, also imported from Stormbringer).

9 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

though for me the simple increase in Specials and Critical Hits, along with splitting skill to handle multiple opponents would have been enough.

This is RQIII's rule.

17 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

But the simple fix is dump the skills over 100% rule that is the worst rule in the game.

It is bad only if Attack and Parry are the same skill. Otherwise, I don't like it, but it works.

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

That doesn't indicate that the defender can parry those attacks though, just that they are easier to hit.

As I have written above, I couldn't find anything about that. But I also write ' although it can be possible to apply something '.

15 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So just to make sure I'm on the same page as everyone else here, if one guy with Sword 150% were fighting two opponents at 50%, he would be able to make one attack at 150%, but still reduce both opponents attacks by 50% (down to the default 5%)?And, since their attacks will most likely miss and his parries will most likely succeed, he will be probably be  damaging both of their weapons in the process? Is that a correct assessment of how the combat would play out in RQG?

Yes. At least, this is what I understand reading the rules. If someone can tell me I'm wrong, I will be very happy.

19 minutes ago, Brootse said:

What? You can parry hits struck behind you now?

RQG P223: Defenseless or Unaware Opponent: An attacker has a +40% chance of hitting an opponent when that opponent is on the ground, otherwise immobilized, or unaware of the attacker.

1 hour ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

See, this was our experience the first time we really got the spell into action. I had a bade 100 skill, used sword trance with 29 MP. Used my 390% effective Greatsword skill to dismantle a single target every round and every time I parried I would damage their weapons or get lucky amd completely annihilate them on a special or critical parry. Yes, there are alternative ways to take out the Humakti with Sword Trance but, they can nearly trivialize any melee combat with the Spell. Even Big Club.

Yes, with RQG, a high weapon ability, whatever the reason (high skill, bladesharp, sword trance, ...) will cause this. To evade this effect, you need numerous opponents, clever use of magic, ranged weapons or running away till the spell expires.

Kloster

52 minutes ago, Brootse said:

When facing multiple opponents, couldn't they just hit him in the back?

Attacking from the back is a situational bonus that gives a bonus to attacker (+40 if unaware of the attack), not a malus to parry, although it can be possible to apply something. The number of parry is the only point I have found that is sure to reduce Parry.

Kloster

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

•  I wasn't aware that high parry ability reduces the opponent's attack %. So I would expect the five Uzdo to attack at full. 
• While I expect the Humakti to parry most of the attacks in, I would also expect a decent amount of damage to get past the parry, and atg the very least, weaken the Humakti sword or shield. 
• I was aware that high attack skill does reduce the defender's parry, I also assumed that the Humakit would have to split attack to attack multiple opponents, and thus reduce his skill to the point where the opponent;'s wouldn't be affected. For example, if the Humakti had a Skill of 200% and was attacking two Uzdo, he would only be at 100% for each, and thus no penalties for the Uzdo. 

Attack and Parry for a single weapon are now 1 single skill (like in Stormbringer). This is for me what causes problem, because this is what requires to have 18 trollkin on your Humakti to be able to touch him, not Sword Trance. The problem is aggravated by the 'Anti Parry effect' (and by the RQ2 skills modifiers in the case of a giant).

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

• Don't tell me they ported over the dysfunctional combat matrix from Elric/Strombringer!

Ehem, nobody told him? Frankly, I haven't checked if the table is the same as in Stormbringer.

Kloster

8 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

No matter how much damage Bigclub the Giant does with his club, he cannot roll it and compare it to the sword HP when he misses. 

Yes, true. This more a problem of the mixing of the skills (Attack and Parry) than anything else. The problem occurs when somebody has a big attack (whatever the way): As it is possible to parry with the attack weapon in the same round and you parry with the same skill, a good fencer can not be attacked by a giant's club and the small rapier will eat the club point by point.

Kloster

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

In fact the "anti-parry" stuff from RQ2 seems to be the biggest objection to Sword Trance in RQG, so RQ3 rules would "fix" the issue. But then I think "anti-parry" was deliberately dropped from all of Chasoium's post RQ2 RPGs for a reason. 

In fact, for me, the potential problem comes more from the single skill that replace Attack and Parry skills for each weapon, like Stormbringer. RQIII Axe Trance (the basis to Sword Trance creation) increased only Attack percentage. If Parry is not increased, Sword Trance does not protect it's user and the horde of trollkin would attack somebody with a manageable level of defense. GM would need 10 trollkin instead of 20.

Kloster

P.S. I don't like the Anti Parry, but for other reasons