Persuasion actions with multiple opponents

[Chiarina]

Recently my group had its third group extensive contest in the form of a persuasion action.

Of course it was a success.

The reason is the -3 penalty for multiple opponents.

My group consists of 6 player characters. They all talk at their single adversary as long as they are successfull. That means this poor soul has 5 additional opponents: -15! No challenge for my players.

Did I miss something?

[JonL]

I think that the multiple opponents penalty envisions a melee context, where facing N:1 odds has a huge impact. If the individual they're trying to persuade is someone who would be similarly overwhelmed by a half dozen people yammering away, then it makes sense to apply it. If that dynamic doesn't fit the situation, then I wouldn't apply it.

 

[jrutila]

I think the rules as written doesn't really say that the multiple opponent penalty affects the NPCs or abstract resistances. But that is my interpretation and I know others disagree. And, I think, it will be clarified in the upcoming QuestWorlds.

Still, I have ruled that the resistance does not suffer from multiple opponent penalty as the PCs have enough advantage by engaging in the contest each one individually and they have other tactics (like assists) that the resistance does not have.

Rules-wise the penalty is cumulative and the -15 penalty would only come to the sixth contest. So the "first" contest (how do you determine which PC gets to have this contest? I'm just asking...) is vanilla, second one is -3, third one is -6 etc.

[Chiarina]

Interesting and helpful answers, so far. The rules for "Multiple Opponents" say "you" and "the hero". I admit, maybe only the player characters are meant.

Even in a combat situation?

If a player says: "What? It doesn´t matter if I´m attacking him alone or with my five friends?", then the answer could be: "Try it with an augment and assists!" Right? Sounds good. I´ll try it.

What is "QuestWorlds", by the way?

Edited November 26, 2019 by Chiarina

[JonL]

Just now, Chiarina said:

What is "QuestWorlds", by the way?

The forthcoming open-licensed successor to HQ2. The SRD is finished, with release pending final licensing details. Ron Edwards has already been using it as the foundation for his upcoming  trippy-space-supers game, Cosmic Zap, and. "HeroQuest" will continue to be the trade name for Glorantha-focussed material, but farther afield "QuestWorlds" will not be forever confused with the old Milton Bradley boardgame. 

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, Chiarina said:

If a player says: "What? It doesn´t matter if I´m attacking him alone or with my five friends?", then the answer could be: "Try it with an augment and assists!" Right? Sounds good. I´ll try it.

I'd say this is the best way to handle it.

If you're up against one person in a debate, it doesn't help to have everyone talking over each other.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Chiarina said:

Interesting and helpful answers, so far. The rules for "Multiple Opponents" say "you" and "the hero". I admit, maybe only the player characters are meant.

Even in a combat situation?

If a player says: "What? It doesn´t matter if I´m attacking him alone or with my five friends?", then the answer could be: "Try it with an augment and assists!" Right? Sounds good. I´ll try it.

Interesting thoughts, particularly as I probably have a similar situation coming up.

Likely how I'd approach this is that the PC's need to select a spokesperson who will engage in the actual contest. Possibly add a second who can also contribute actively to the debate, but others need to contribute via Assists (e.g. reminding the spokesperson of specific examples or whatever).  It's kind of like a melee where the setting limits the number who can directly fight (i.e. the foe is in a doorway and can't be flanked). As others join in directly, I'd see a law of diminishing returns, or as noted above, too many different thoughts and opinions that the foe can simply ignore (i.e. same resistance) or even use to their advantage (instead of multiple opponent bonus, it becomes a penalty).

 

[Chiarina]

O.K., thank you for convincing arguments in the case of many pc vs few npcs.

What about the opposite side: one pc vs. many npcs.

Here the rules for multiple opponents are in charge.

Imagine the orator pc before an auditorium of 100 npcs. He wants to convince his listeners of something. If I use the rules for multiple opponents, he´ll get a penalty of -297 at last.

I know, it´s an extreme example - but my players ask questions like this... they worry about the "mali ad infinitum".

Do you have an answer for them?

[jrutila]

1 hour ago, Chiarina said:

What about the opposite side: one pc vs. many npcs.

Here the rules for multiple opponents are in charge.

Imagine the orator pc before an auditorium of 100 npcs. He wants to convince his listeners of something. If I use the rules for multiple opponents, he´ll get a penalty of -297 at last.

The multiple opponent penalty comes from each contest the PC is part of. Now, do you want to have 100 individual contests? Probably not as that would require lots of dice rolls and would be really biased against the PC. There are the rules about hordes. In this case you treat the auditorium of 100 npcs as a horde and a single contest. If  you would want more contests the main adversary might be opposing the orator and you can have two resistances:

• Winning against the main adversary might mean something in your story
• Same time the PC can lose the contest about rest of the auditorium gaining some kind of penalty in the story

To fully win the whole extended contest the PC would have to win both contests. For the second contest (auditorium) the PC gets -3 multiple opponent penalty (as the PC is fighting them simultaneously). If another PC would be thwarting the main adversary (for example blackmailing him through a telephone during the event) then they would have their own contest and the MOP does not apply. But now if the blackmailer would fail (5 RP against them) the main PC (orator) would have to address also the main adversary by themselves and get the penalty and oh,  the tension is rising!

So, it all comes to framing the contests and finding meaningful contests. Don't be afraid to abstract a lot what the PCs are actually facing. In my PbP HQG game the PCs are just about to eliminate some Lunars to get to the sacred place. There is an NPC who wants the Lunars dead but the PCs don't want to stain their hands with Lunar blood. They are facing two contests. First, if they manage to eliminate (in a non-violent meaning) the Lunars. Second, if they manage not to kill Lunars or cause trouble comparable to that. Both of these contests might succeed or fail and the outcomes are different. For example Minor Victory and Minor Defeat would mean access to the sacred place secured with dead Lunars everywhere. I don't even know how many Lunars there are at this point. I think the final amount of Lunars is determined during the first die rolls of the contest.

[Chiarina]

This is a reasonable answer. It´s similar to the words I said to my players.

But I can´t remember rules about "hordes". Where are they?

Thank you for your patience.

[jrutila]

1 hour ago, Chiarina said:

But I can´t remember rules about "hordes". Where are they?

I might've stepped into the HeroQuest Core Rules -trap in here. I don't have the book or the pdf now but it might've been there somewhere. I didn't find it from the HQG either. But p. 58 in HQG is about framing and the horde "rule" I referred to might actually be just an example of framing: "I try to kill that horde of 100 trollkins" could be just simple one roll contest.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, jrutila said:

I might've stepped into the HeroQuest Core Rules -trap in here.

Yes in the HQ2 Core Rules p. 79. "More simply, you can treat many as one. Divide the number of minor opponents by the number of contesting PCs. Treat each of these sections of the crowd as a single character with one ability rating. They don’t impose a multiple opponent penalty; instead, their numbers are factored into the ability rating you assign to them. When the mob loses an exchange, describe individuals within it as being hurt or falling away. When it wins, describe them overwhelming the PC, or swelling in numbers."

However, it's natural to treat the group as the difficulty/obstacle to overcome, particularly in social contests such as Oratory. 

I used a variation of this to run the Clan Moot. During the Moot, one of the heroes, Dyrrkind, chose to address the assembled crowd. They were treated as a single group (even though there were "factions" which could be used if you wanted "multiple" opponents). This was part of the contest where Dyrrkind seeks to get all the crowd listening to him and his companions - one nice thing with PbF is having the text, and the players can be quite narrative as well!

Dyrrkind walks to the Speaker's Rock with his hands crossed behind his back steps up on to it. Bows his head to Arkalanth, looks to the ring and bows his head. Turns to the crowd, bows his head again but does not raise it as fast instead say's a small prayer loud enough for those near to hear but not so loud that all the crowd can hear. Then he looks up and speaks.

"Arkalanth is right a Ogre, our clans ancient foe, was found among us and we made sure he left this world. Yes, a Slinger was among us but here only to judge one. Darkness did assail us, Orlanth didn't abandon us, in fact he and his brother Humakt blessed this, my sword" and he pulls his sword from his scabbard and holds it high shows it to the crowd and then returns it to his scabbard

Dyrrkind continues "Even the darkness could not withstand this blade of death and together we drove the darkness back, we showed our strength. Shortly before the darkness appeared I prayed for the strength to fight the Lunars. The spirit of Nymie appeared to me and told me what is coming and what must be done."

Dyrrkind raises his voice a little "You all deserve to know what she said. Nymie told me The Empty Emperor seeks to enslave us and the spirits of our lands and that The Dogs of war and Hell are coming, they will dog my trail, they seek to Break Mastakos and chase Yinkin away, I must drive them back. Next she told me, servants of the stagnant Pit seek Orlanths blood to cut his power and they must be stopped. Next she told me Dragonkind will answer the call to war and fight on our side. To do all this there are quests that must be completed"

Dyrrkind continues at a slightly louder volume "We have Stopped One Threat. Aren, Breya, Orlrik and I went into the spirit world and closed a gate that the Evil Lunar Witch had opened to bring the darkness here. You may have heard rumors about me since then I'm here to tell you the truth. Orlanth honors those that sacrifice for others, I been told I may have to sacrifice more. Orlanth, Humakt, and a tortured dead Female warrior of Orlanth gave me the strength to do what was needed, to close the gate. That strength came at a price"

Dyrrkind raises his left hand, waits for the crowd to respond then continues, raising his voice and strengthened by his ---Thunder's Voice--- ability. "The winter is coming and I say now is the time for the clan to contact allies and friends, now is NOT the time for attacks but to strengthen Ourselves for what is coming without showing our hands. Orlanth has NOT abandoned us this is just the CALM before THE STORM"

Dyrrkind pauses then raises both arms and say's "Are we not THE STORM, say it with me, ...THE STORM ...THE STORM ..."

Dyrrkind continues if the crowd is following along. Glancing at The Ring out of the corner of his eye, to see their reaction. If their reaction looks like they want him to stop the crowd chanting, then he will wave his arms up and down to quiet the crowd.

Long speech: extended contest(one roll per paragraph)?
Godtalker 17 Roll 1d20 = (9) = 9
Godtalker 17 Roll 1d20 = (18) = 18
Godtalker 17 Roll 1d20 = (1) = 1
Godtalker 17 Roll 1d20 = (16) = 16
Godtalker 17 Augment ("Thunder's Voice" 2W/5 rnd up) +5 = 2W Roll 1d20 = (18) = 18

What does Dyrrkind ask of the clan?

Dyrrkind is trying to calm the War Hawks down and inspire the crowd with knowledge that Orlanth is still with them and notices personal sacrifice for others. Trying to find the good in bad events. In The last paragraph he suggests a general course of action for the tribe.  
And Yes, he is trying to get them to chant with him, hoping to get the crowd riled up in a good way.

Ultimately the goal is to support the quest to find Orane.

-------------------

The crowd listens to his words.
Restive and uncertain crowd at 14: 1d20 = (19) = 19
success vs. fail - minor victory to Dyrrkind
Dyrrkind Orlmarth clanfolk

Dyrrkind has the clan folk listening. A blessing of Humakt is strong magic.

-------------

The crowd knows Nymie's counsel to be wise.
Restive and uncertain crowd at 14: 1d20 = (18) = 18
fail vs. fail - tie.
Dyrrkind Orlmarth clanfolk

The clan folk are uncertain what Dyrrkind will reveal.

--------------

Are there any who doubt what Dyrrkind says?
Restive and uncertain crowd at 14: 1d20 = (13) = 13
critical vs. success - minor victory to Dyrrkind
Dyrrkind Orlmarth clanfolk

The words of Nymie are scary for many and stirring for others. The clan folk understand quests.

---------------

Has Dyrrkind engaged the crowd? Do they listen closely?
Restive and uncertain crowd at 14: 1d20 = (11) = 11
success vs. success - marginal victory to Dyrrkind
Dyrrkind Orlmarth clanfolk

The clan folk wait for Dyrrkind to reveal the price.

----------------

Does Dyrrkind have them chanting with him?
Restive and uncertain crowd at 14: 1d20 = (11) = 11
fail bumped to success vs. success - marginal victory to Dyrrkind
Dyrrkind Orlmarth clanfolk

The Orlmarth speak with Dyrrkind, "...THE STORM ...THE STORM ...THE STORM ..."

The chanting seems to echo and reverberate through Old Man Village. The Ring seems to wait for Dyrrkind to state what action he believes is needed.