Dueling Magic(ian)s

[Joerg]

Dueling Magics

 

Magic is a match winner in many a RuneQuest conflict, and for this reason there are a couple of magics to avert this.

It is necessary to define a few terms here. Penetration strength of a spell: This is relevant for magical barriers like the Countermagic effect, Neutralizing effects, or Reflection/Castback. The penetration strength is the sum of all magic points put into the intensity of the spell plus all boosting magic points and twice the sum of the rune points put into the spell effect (not area or duration). Sorcerous spells cast with the help of an inscribed spell also add all points of POW in the inscription put into the intensity of the spell (though not points of POW for duration or range). Spell intensity or spell strength is the number of points for the spell effect, and is the value that is relevant for attempts to dispel or neutralize the spell. As usual, one rune point counts for two magic points. In the case of rune spells which require a boost with magic points to have an effect, there are two measures: the bonus of the spell is dependent on the boosted magic points, which are instantly used up to create that bonus for the duration of the spell (if applicable, Heal Wound for example has an instant effect). For dispelling, only the number of rune points need to be removed.

One such magic is a magical barrier, also often referred to the Countermagic effect, which comes in a variety of flavors. This basically prevents all spells below the threshold set by the Countermagic effect spell to affect their target.

The caster of the incoming spell has the possibility to boost the spell with additional Magic Points during the casting, adding to the penetration of the incoming spell (only).

The effect is named after the spirit spell Countermagic, a variable spell (i.e. limited by the number of points the caster has learned. Within its duration (2 minutes unless extended by a shaman or stacked with the Extension rune spell), it will absolutely block/dissipate any incoming magic 2 points less than its strength, and persist. If the incoming magic is within one point of the Countermagic strength, both the incoming magic and the Countermagic will disspipate. Spells stronger than the Countermagic will simply disspiate the Countermagic spell and take effect.

There are rune spells which impart a Countermagic effect as part of their effect, most notably Shield. Unlike the Spirit spell, this Countermagic effect will dissipate any spell with a penetration strength up to the value of the Countermagic effect and remain in effect until the end of the duration or until dispelled.

The tricky part is that the Countermagic spirit spell will stack its effects with these rune magic Countermagic effects. However, due to the ephemeral nature of the spirit spell, the rune magic effects need to be in place before the spirit spell can be placed on top of that effect. The other way around, the rune magic would either be blocked by and/or dissipate the Countermagic spirit spell.

(This is somewhat clumsily worded in the description of the Shield spell, and not at all in the other instances of the Countermagic effect for rune spells).

Another tricky topic is the interaction of the Countermagic effect with detection spells, area-affecting spells and targeting spells. More about this below.

A similar effect with an added bonus is the Absorption rune spell which converts incoming spells of any type onto the target of this spell (needn‘t be the caster) into magic points for the caster of the spell as long as the penetration strength of the spell doesn‘t surpass the Absorption effect. Special cases like interaction with detection spells or area-effect spells like warding are discussed below.

There are sorcery spell which provide their target with a similar barrier against specific incoming spells: Neutralize <Rune> and Neutralize Spirit Magic. In typical sorcery manner, the barrier is fuzzy and requires that the penetration strength of the incoming spell overcomes the intensity of the barrier spell. The Neutralize Spirit Magic spell first needs to dissipate all existing temporal spirit spells affecting the target by overcoming the sum of their spell strength and will then remain in effect for its duration, but will dissipate when it fails a resistance roll (if the incoming spirit spell takes effect), the Neutralize <Rune> spells will stay in effect for its duration regardless whether incoming spells penetrate it.

It isn’t clear whether a Neutralize <Rune> spell will protect from a sorcerous spell using that rune. (And if so, whether the substitution for the Magic rune in undefined spells by the specified rune makes a spell susceptible to Neutralize <Rune>.)

The interaction of Neutralize Spirit Magic with the Countermagic spirit spell is slightly complicated. Obviously, to take effect, it has to overcome the stacked Countermagic effect on the target with its penetration strength, which is the sum of its intensity (whether from manipulation or inscribed POW) and any magic points piled on top to boost it. The instant this has happened, Countermagic the spirit spell dissipates, and hence doesn‘t count to the sum of the points of temporal spirit magic in effect, as far as I interprete the rules.

 

Not quite a barrier, but still interacting with the penetration strength of the incoming spell is the reflection effect of the rune spell Reflection and the sorcery spell Castback. Again obviously it has to have penetrated the stacked Countermagic effect already for this spell to come into action.

 

Another such magic is dispelling magic that already has taken effect.

The spells applicable here are the Spirit spell Dispel Magic, the common Rune Spell Dismiss Magic and the sorcerous Neutralize Spirit Magic (as the instant effect of this spell).

Dispel and Dismiss have to be equal to or stronger than the points of the targeted spell. Boosts like Extension, points put into Duration or Range, or magic points that had been added to penetrate a Countermagic-like barrier don‘t count here.

Sorcery matches the intensity of the Neutralize Spirit Magic spell (not the magic points put into Range or Duration, or as boost to penetrate a barrier) with the sum of all spirit spells currently affecting the target. (Not including any instant spirit spells that happen to strike the target simultaneously to this spell – since sorcery is slower than spirit magic, I would rule that instant spells take effect before this sorcery spell takes effect. Once this spell has taken effect, the barrier effect of it discussed above comes into play.)

Both these spells can be cast on a Protective Circle to give them area-effect, taking care of the range condition. This is also the only way to cast Neutralize Spirit Magic on a target without affecting existing spirit magic (like that extended Bladesharp 3 that you might want to keep on your blade).

 

A third variant temporarily suspends a temporal spell that is already in effect. This is (currently) limited to the sorcery spell Neutralize Magic.

If the Neutralize Magic spell has an intensity of at least half the intensity of the spell already in effect, the intensity of the spell is matched against the intensity of the Neutralize Magic spell.

The caster needs to be able to perceive the targeted spell (i.e. the target of the spell) in order to neutralize it.

There are a number of debatable points here. Does the Neutralize Magic target a single spell, or does it target a stacked spell effect (say Shield plus Protection) if the caster cannot specify whether the magical protection is from spirit magic or rune magic?

 

Finally there are special or additional such effects, like Reflection/Castback which return a spell whose caster didn‘t manage to win a POW vs. POW contest against the spell‘s target on the caster.

And in this case, it is open to debate whether any magic points used for boosting the spell say past a Countermagic effect or the Absorption effect still are in effect when the spell is reflected. Probably yes, if you look at the description of the Absorption spell.

 

The interaction between detection spells and the Countermagic effect and the Countermagic spirit spell fragility was discussed in this thread:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/8238-countermagic-complications/

I seem to recall a ruling that a Detect Magic (or Enemies) spell would not dissipate any Countermagic spells it encounters even if its boosted strength would allow it to. I am not sure whether the Countermagic effect shields additional magic or the quality of “Enemy” from being detected.

 

A nifty tool a bit outside of these considerations is the sorcery spell Attract Magic which redirects any ranged spell within its range of effect to the designated redirection target if applicable.

Applicable means: the caster must be able to see (or otherwise target) the redirection target. The redirection target must be susceptible to the spell. Mind-affecting spells cannot be redirected to objects, but can be redirected to people, beasts, monster (e.g. undead, automata, or spirits with Visibility on), or illusions thereof (that cover the sensory range of the caster used for targeting – usually sight, Sould Sight, or darksense, possibly earthsense). Spells causing physical damage cannot be redirected to a spirit with Visibility on, but can be cast on an optical or Darksense illusion or phantom (or hallucination, if the caster is affected by one, although in this case only the person who cast the Hallucination or anyone in mental connection with the hallucinating caster would be able to target the redirection target).

A standard held high with a bound spirit inside or a beast (e.g. a bird) perching on it may act as such a redirection target, and only affects those who have line of sight towards this redirection target. Shielding their vision against this redirection target will allow casters to affect their intended target with ranged magic.

(Note that a Lightwall or a Darkwall can render this distraction ineffective to casters using sight for targeting, and Lightwall possibly affecting Darksense, too. Not Soul Sight, though…)

 

 

Selectively targeting active spells with dispelling (or neutralizing) spells

Unless you know exactly what spells have been cast on a target, you have to guess at the spell or its function, and at its intensity.

Let’s take an Arkati (Humakti and/or Zorak Zorani) as your opponent whose sword has that magic “glow” signalling that there is a magic spell active on it. Unless you use Soul Sight or Pierce Veil, you have no information about how strong the spell is, or whether there are several spells active on the blade.

Let’s assume a worst case here. The blade could carry Bladesharp, Truesword, Blessing of Kargan Tor, Seal Wound, Pain Tooth, Protection or Countermagic, Shield, Absorption, Neutralize Armor, Ward Against Weapons and Castback (applicable if the blade has a bound spirit), Preserve Item, Protective Circle (with any number of Neutralize Rune and Neutralize Spirit Magic spells on it), and because nasty opponents did strike this worthy with de-buffing magic, a number of Neutralize Magic spells negating several castings of Dullblade, Dampen Damage and possibly even Glue (to the sheath it was in).

The dispelling target declaration might simply be “the (or a) spell on that blade, in which case a random spell from the list of the protective spells above is chosen (Protection, Shield, Absorption, Castback, Ward Against Weapons, Protective Circle and its companions). (With the usual checks for whether the incoming dispelling spell overcomes a Countermagic and/or Absorption effect, and whether it overcomes the magic points of the bound spirit in order to avoid triggering the Castback, if within range of the Castback resistance ability.)

“The (a) spell on that blade that is not a protective spell.” I don’t think I’d allow an exclusion clause in the targeting.

That leaves a positive but not concrete pronouncement like “The (a) spell that enhances that blade.” Getting into tricky territory. Preserve Item qualifies, so does every Neutralize Magic with the spell it blocked still in duration.

An obvious effect like Fireblade is easy to target, of course. (A Fireblade combined with a medium strength Absorption might become a veritable MP generator…)

But I don’t think that Boon of Kargan Tor is really discernible from Truesword, Seal Wound or Bladesharp.

Detect Magic will lighten up all potential targets within range. More reliable than just looking out for that magical glow or increased definition that accompanies active magic.

Soul Sight or Pierce Veil will not be blocked by the Countermagic effect, and may tell how strong the magic on that sword is. The question here is whether the spells can discern between spells, whether they have enough resolution to determine single spells, and whether stacked spell effects (like Shield with Protection or Countermagic, or Protective Circle with various Neutralize spells) are perceived as a single amount of magic.

The sorcerous Identify Spell spell can identify a single spell, either targeting an obvious spell effect, or targeting the target of a spell. The spell description gives no advice how to deal with an object that is the target of multiple spells, or how this spell deals with stacked effects like Countermagic or Protection, and neither does it tell us whether Countermagic or Absorption prevents such an identification.

The sorcerous Reveal Rune spell gives a good guess at what rune spells the character may possibly have cast himself, although associate magic or Spell Trading might obscure that. Spells cast by supporters require a runic analysis of said supporters...
 

Area effect magic and dispelling and Countermagic effects

This is where things get tricky.

Does the Countermagic effect on individual targets stack with the Countermagic effect of area effect magic?

What happens if you are inside the effect of a Create Neutral Ground or Great Market and cast offensive magic? Does a sufficiently high Countermagic effect or Neutralize Harmony Rune spell protect you from the Disruption penalty for taking offensive action inside the area?

How high a Countermagic effect is required? 1 point per Disruption, or 2 points per point of Warding? What about Create Market (a 3-point spell, although some of those points may explain the 8-week special duration)?

 

What is the effect of several Protective Circles with the same Neutralize spells on them overlapping? Does only the strongest Neutralize effect interact with the incoming spell, or does the incoming spell ‘s penetration strength have to bypass each and every Neutralize spell it crosses or enters?

 

Absorption and the Disrupt effects of Create Market or Warding: Does Absorption 2 prevent a 3 point Warding’s Disrupt effect to hit the target of the Absorption when triggering the Disrupt? Does the caster receive 3 magic points every time the Absorption target inside a 3 priests’ worth Great Market fires their bow, or crosses a hostile Warding border?

That’s it for now. This post might be edited when I conceive or receive additions or necessary alterations to this version.

 

Edited December 22, 2019 by Joerg
added "Identify Spell" to the targeting section

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The (a) spell that enhances that blade

I don't think I would allow this either. IMHO the opponent can either target the sword (and therefore randomly attack any ongoing spell, with defensive spells first), or specifically call out a spell which was either guessed, or was identified somehow through magic or whatever. If the opponent names a spell that isn't running, they just wasted some RP/MP.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The caster of the incoming spell has the possibility to boost the spell with additional Magic Points during the casting, adding to the penetration of the incoming spell (only).

Since I'm still on the fence about whether boosted spells only increase their penetration strength, or also increase their spell intensity (which would affect Dispel/Dismiss/Neutralize Magic), I did some more thinking about it. I've been going back and forth between both interpretations but one thing that makes me think @Joerg might be right is the problem of spell limits.

Unless I'm mistaken, Dispel Magic must be learned at a specific level. So just like Bladesharp 4 takes up 4 points of your spell holding limit, Dispel Magic 4 would also take 4 points (the limit being your CHA). This means that, realistically speaking, you can't cast Dispel Magic very high -- it doesn't matter how many MPs you have in storage. At best you might have some bound spirit specializing in these types of spells, so you can, say, have a spirit with Dispel Magic 8 just so that you don't have to... but either way, it's not gonna get crazy. Countermagic is the same... the levels of Countermagic are not going to get very high. Shield is limited by Rune points, which also don't run very high and, more importantly, don't recharge very quickly.

Boosting spells, however, can get crazy. You can throw all your storage at it. So boosting a spell to get through Countermagic has a bit of a pro/con economy, where you're wasting potentially a lot of MPs, and they evaporate right away. If boosting was also increasing the spell intensity (thus protecting it from Dispel/Dismiss/Neutralize Magic), it would somewhat fuck up the economy of Countermagic and Shield. Why would you waste precious RPs or spell holding CHA to be able to cast Countermagic/Shield at high levels when you can use these limited points to know and cast other spells, and you can instead carry around big storage crystals to just boost all your castings? This suddenly changes boosting spells from something with pros/cons to something that has a LOT more advantages than downsides... so yeah, I'm leaning towards boosting only affecting penetration at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind AGAIN in the near future

Edited December 22, 2019 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Countermagic is the same... the levels of Countermagic are not going to get very high.

Also, popping Countermagic on its own is super easy - just cast an anything and give it a large boosting, and it will not only penetrate but also take down the Countermagic.

(This is something I find weird about Shield - the assumption seems to be that Rune Magic is about twice as potent as Spirit Magic, but not only is Shield four times as good as the same amount of Protection/Countermagic - then it's even better yet than that because it has super-Countermagic that can't be popped the same way. This is a large part of why Shield is such a massively dominant spell.)

Edited December 22, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

39 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Boosting spells, however, can get crazy. You can throw all your storage at it. So boosting a spell to get through Countermagic has a bit of a pro/con economy, where you're wasting potentially a lot of MPs, and they evaporate right away.

Not right away. There are other spells than just the Countermagic effect which take penetration strength into account, such as Absorption, Reflection/Castback, or the sorcery spells Neutralize <Rune> or Neutralize Spirit Magic - especially when cast on a Protective Circle rather than on an item that might already carry spirit magic.

 

39 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

If boosting was also increasing the spell intensity (thus protecting it from Dispel/Dismiss/Neutralize Magic), it would somewhat fuck up the economy of Countermagic and Shield.

There is a number of rune magic spells with the intensity of their rune points (doubled as usual) for dispelling purposes with the potential of unlimited magic points poured into them. Safe is one of these, with the MP in the spell determining the POW vs. POW attack of the spell against a trespasser that causes 1D6 points general hit point damage.

While the spell is nonstackable, there is nothing to keep a vindictive Issaries initiate from staggering Safe spells on successive door frames or even door frame edges...

39 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Why would you waste precious RPs or spell holding CHA to be able to cast Countermagic/Shield at high levels when you can use these limited points to know and cast other spells, and you can instead carry around big storage crystals to just boost all your castings?

You wouldn't. While the Countermagic effect of successive Shield spells might accumulate or not (it looks like they do - after all, combining Protection and Shield usually happens in different melee rounds, too, if cast by one and the same person), there is a practical upper limit which is the number of magic points you have to expend to overcome the Countermagic effect of the points of Shield already in place.

There is another good reason not to do so: casting time.

39 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

This suddenly changes boosting spells from something with pros/cons to something that has a LOT more advantages than downsides... so yeah, I'm leaning towards boosting only affecting penetration at this point. I reserve the right to change my mind AGAIN in the near future

Sure. YRQMV... just as MRWMV...

 

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, popping Countermagic on its own is super easy - just cast an anything and give it a large boosting, and it will not only penetrate but also take down the Countermagic.

Yes. But my example of using Countermagic to shrug off the Disruption effects of a Create Market/Neutral Ground effect or (staggered) Wardings show a rather cheap application with strong consequences.

Stacking CM on top of a Shield stack makes the combined effect uncomfortably strong without wasting many (if any) magic points on Boosting yourself.

38 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

(This is something I find weird about Shield - the assumption seems to be that Rune Magic is about twice as potent as Spirit Magic, but not only is Shield four times as good as the same amount of Protection/Countermagic - then it's even better yet than that because it has super-Countermagic that can't be popped the same way. This is a large part of why Shield is such a massively dominant spell.)

It has the disadvantage that the Shield's CM also blocks any beneficial magic cast on you unless sufficiently powerful in penetration strength. Not a problem for Heal Wound, but probably a disincentive for your supporter to renew your Bladesharp after it expired.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not right away. There are other spells than just the Countermagic effect which take penetration strength into account, such as Absorption, Reflection/Castback

Well what I meant was that in all these cases, the boosting is only useful "on the spot", so to speak, as the MPs invested in the boost are taken into various accounts to figure out if it gets dispelled/dismissed/castback/reflected/etc. This is all resolved immediately at the table, and then you can forget about it -- you don't need to "track" the boost for subsequent rounds.

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is a number of rune magic spells with the intensity of their rune points (doubled as usual) for dispelling purposes with the potential of unlimited magic points poured into them. Safe is one of these

True, although the boosting of Safe isn't so much "boosting" as it is increasing the spell's effects, much like Axe Trance, for example. Once again, the problem is that RQG has very poor terminology for various gameplay systems, and using the word "boosting" muddies things up. For instance, if a container or person had Countermagic active on it, and then you wanted to cast Safe or Axe Trance on them, I wouldn't make the "intrinsic" Safe/Axe Trance boosting MPs be able to pierce through Countermagic -- you'd have to spend some other MPs for specifically boosting penetration strength. Does that make sense?

Edited December 23, 2019 by lordabdul

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Well what I meant was that in all these cases, the boosting is only useful "on the spot", so to speak, as the MPs invested in the boost are taken into various accounts to figure out if it gets dispelled/dismissed/castback/reflected/etc. This is all resolved immediately at the table, and then you can forget about it -- you don't need to "track" the boost for subsequent rounds.#

Yeah, keeping down the book-keeping is another advantage.

I am undecided whether an existing spell can be replace by an equally strong spell boosted with MP. If that was the case, then could a 4 point Protection theoretically be replaced by a 1 point Protection boosted with 4 MP?

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

True, although the boosting of Safe isn't so much "boosting" as it is increasing the spell's effects, much like Axe Trance, for example. Once again, the problem is that RQG has very poor terminology for various gameplay systems, and using the word "boosting" muddies things up.

I am fine with "Boosting" to describe the donation of additional MP to a spell. The additional MP toggle something and then are n longer available for dispelling.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

For instance, if a container or person had Countermagic active on it, and then you wanted to cast Safe or Axe Trance on them, I wouldn't make the "intrinsic" Safe/Axe Trance boosting MPs be able to pierce through Countermagic -- you'd have to spend some other MPs for specifically boosting penetration strength. Does that make sense?

Not to me. A Heal Wound's MP should be available to bypass a Shield's CM effect.

There is the problem of (or difference in) the casting time, though - boosting a spell other than a rune spell with intrinsic boost will delay the spell by the number of strike ranks equivalent to the MP you put in. Not sure about boosting sorcery spells (usually these should have ridiculously high intensity already), as a sorcery spell takes two strike ranks per MP in the spell.

Casting "Safe" on a person sounds quite like a magical chastity belt... quite a bit of wear and tear on the dentist, though.

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

True, although the boosting of Safe isn't so much "boosting" as it is increasing the spell's effects, much like Axe Trance, for example. Once again, the problem is that RQG has very poor terminology for various gameplay systems, and using the word "boosting" muddies things up. For instance, if a container or person had Countermagic active on it, and then you wanted to cast Safe or Axe Trance on them, I wouldn't make the "intrinsic" Safe/Axe Trance boosting MPs be able to pierce through Countermagic -- you'd have to spend some other MPs for specifically boosting penetration strength. Does that make sense?

I think this makes all kinds of sense and is how things should work - i.e. you can boost for penetration or boost for effect, but you don't get both for the same MP.

I don't think this is how the Rules as Written actually work, though.

In principle, you could have a system where you could boost for penetration, boost for effect, boost for range, boost for duration... but at that point, you have just reinvented Sorcery.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

Duplicate post.

Edited December 23, 2019 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am undecided whether an existing spell can be replace by an equally strong spell boosted with MP. If that was the case, then could a 4 point Protection theoretically be replaced by a 1 point Protection boosted with 4 MP?

I don't follow -- there's no such thing a "1 point Protection boosted with 4 MP". You either cast Protection 1 or Protection 4. More importantly, you either memorize Protection 1 or Protection 4, one taking up less CHA than the other.

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

Not to me. A Heal Wound's MP should be available to bypass a Shield's CM effect.

Haha... oh well. Another occurence of "I can see it work either way, but sadly the rules are super unclear".

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

There is the problem of (or difference in) the casting time, though - boosting a spell other than a rune spell with intrinsic boost will delay the spell by the number of strike ranks equivalent to the MP you put in.

Mmmh, if you cast Heal Wound with 6 MPs, I would expect it to take 6 SRs. Why would those MPs be time-free? The SR rules are fairly clear: they both mention "+1 SR for each magic point used" and "+1 SR for each +1 boosting".... although that second one comes under the category "Spirit Magic", which make it look like it doesn't apply to Rune magic boosting, but I assume that's another situation where the authors fail to use strictly defined terminology.

More importantly , why would you be of the opinion that "intrinsic boosting" increases penetration power but takes no time, whereas "bonus boosting" also increases penetration power but takes time? That seems like an inconsistent interpretation of the rules to me... increasing penetration power with MP should go hand in hand with taking extra SR, I think.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don't think this is how the Rules as Written actually work, though.

In principle, you could have a system where you could boost for penetration, boost for effect, boost for range, boost for duration... but at that point, you have just reinvented Sorcery.

Yeah I'm fine with Rune Magic being more limited because that's what makes Sorcery more attractive. Which is why Extension, for example, feels way too powerful to me -- I can see it being useful for divine blessing of crops or similar things, where you definitely want that to come from Rune magic and not sorcery from a worldbuilding point of view, but it might have been better to have made those specific spells have their own duration rules, instead of opening up munchkinery to half the Rune magic grimoire.

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I don't follow -- there's no such thing a "1 point Protection boosted with 4 MP". You either cast Protection 1 or Protection 4. More importantly, you either memorize Protection 1 or Protection 4, one taking up less CHA than the other.

You were the one looking for other uses of boosted MP.

And yes, there is such a thing as a 1 point Protection boosted with 4 MP - it is what is required to stack a single point of Protection on top of a Shield spell. Admittedly, adding 5 points of Protection would be better, but in order to do that you would need to know Protection 5 rather than Protection 1.

I wondered whether the rule "a stronger spell replaces a weaker one, in case of two spells with equal strength, the existing one remains" could refer to penetration strength rather than intensity.

A beneficial use by a supporter could be to replace the Protection 4 that is in its last melee round by a fresh one without any short period of a gap without that benefit. Since the supporter only knows 4 points of protection, she cannot cast a 5 point spell to replace it - unless a point for boosting makes the newer spell stronger than the exisiting one.

I was thinking of a destructive/malign casting of a helpful spell on an opponent, here, especially if you lack any Dispel options. I think we have agreed that the intensity of a spell plus the magic points put into Boosting make up the penetration strength of a spell. It makes a difference if the enemy has three points less armor to protect against incoming damage. Four points less would have been preferable, but lacking Dispel options, three points less is good enough.

 

Quote

Haha... oh well. Another occurence of "I can see it work either way, but sadly the rules are super unclear".

I wouldn't go that far - I think the rules interpretations that count boosting into resident strength are a stretch, something a Eurmali-infected rules-lawyer would inflict on a GM, but I agree that clarification or a clear example or two would be helpful.

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Mmmh, if you cast Heal Wound with 6 MPs, I would expect it to take 6 SRs. Why would those MPs be time-free?

There is the statement "All rune spells take effect on Strike Rank 1." This statement might have priority over the rule that you quote below:

Quote

The SR rules are fairly clear: they both mention "+1 SR for each magic point used" and "+1 SR for each +1 boosting".... although that second one comes under the category "Spirit Magic", which make it look like it doesn't apply to Rune magic boosting, but I assume that's another situation where the authors fail to use strictly defined terminology.

We have two rules statements, where one overrides the other. I like my meta-rules like everybody, but I am not even sure that this rule for spirit spells applies to sorcery spells that receive Boosting, because "each MP in a sorcery spell adds 2 SR to the casting time". If MP for Boosting also are subject to this doubling of additional SR, treating the Boosting MP of rune spells as prepaid (but subsequently blocking any other actions until all the SR have been accounted for).

"All rune spells take effect on Strike Rank 1." also ignores the caster's DEX SR that is used to off-set both spirit and sorcery spells.

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More importantly , why would you be of the opinion that "intrinsic boosting" increases penetration power but takes no time, whereas "bonus boosting" also increases penetration power but takes time? That seems like an inconsistent interpretation of the rules to me... increasing penetration power with MP should go hand in hand with taking extra SR, I think.

My suggestion is that the caster still has to spend that time after the spell has been initiated - it is possible that being the deity freezes the caster in time, or at least prevents him from any active action. Parrying or dodging might still be an option. Or not while the "I identified with my deity" cools off.

 

Quote

Yeah I'm fine with Rune Magic being more limited because that's what makes Sorcery more attractive. Which is why Extension, for example, feels way too powerful to me -- I can see it being useful for divine blessing of crops or similar things, where you definitely want that to come from Rune magic and not sorcery from a worldbuilding point of view, but it might have been better to have made those specific spells have their own duration rules, instead of opening up munchkinery to half the Rune magic grimoire.

I seem to recall that rune magic Extension may work on spirit spells, too. Right - the Quickstart description of the spell doesn't specify what kind of spell can be extended.

And this phrasing on p.315:

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Casting a Rune magic spell prevents an adventurer from casting any other Rune magic, spirit magic, or sorcery spells that round. The sole exceptions are Extension, which is cast at the same time as the spell it is intended to extend,

My left shoulder munchkin devil jumps up and down suggesting that this allows the Extension rune spell to affect spirit magic and even sorcery, too, while the right shoulder rules-lawyer GM-angel facepalms, shaking its head and halo.

That same devil gleefully suggests that in the description of Extension there is no caveat that the extended spell must be stackable, and the angel shrugs its shoulders and nods. Ever so slightly, without risking the halo slipping off. p.328:

Quote

Extension
[Magic rune/any]
1 Point
Range (as per spell), Temporal, Stackable
This spell extends the duration of any temporal Rune spell that has a normal duration of 15 minutes.

 

A few spells mention the interaction with Extension - Affix Darkness forbids it (that stackable spell has special duration), Discorporate explicitely allows it, Hide Wealth (another stackable spell with special duration) allows it only doubling the duration.

Edited December 23, 2019 by Joerg

[Lordabdul]

43 minutes ago, Joerg said:

it is what is required to stack a single point of Protection on top of a Shield spell.

Ah right, yes.

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I seem to recall that rune magic Extension may work on spirit spells, too.

This was the case in RQ2 -- and actually AFAICT it was only extending spirit magic ("battle magic" in RQ2). In RQ3 and in RQG, it was shockingly switched over to extending Rune magic only instead ("divine magic" in RQ3). I'm wondering why such a big mechanical change was done.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There is the statement "All rune spells take effect on Strike Rank 1." This statement might have priority over the rule that you quote below:

This is one of the worst pieces of rules text in the entire rulebook (and that's against some pretty stiff competition). It always happens on SR 1? Really? Even if I move for half my turn first? Even if I spend magic points? Even if I deliberately delay until the enemy is within range? Even if I cast a Spirit Magic spell before teh Rune Magic in that turn?

The intention is almost certainly that casting a Rune Spell takes 1 SR (disregarding Dex strike rank, but boosting Magic Points are added on).

(The reason the text exists is probably because SR is a very uneasy merging of Initiative and Action Points, and because of bad Cut&Paste jobs.) 

Edited December 23, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is one of the worst pieces of rules text in the entire rulebook (and that's against some pretty stiff competition). It always happens on SR 1? Really? Even if I move for half my turn first? Even if I spend magic points? Even if I deliberately delay until the enemy is within range? Even if I cast a Spirit Magic spell before teh Rune Magic in that turn?

The intention is almost certainly that casting a Rune Spell takes 1 SR (disregarding Dex strike rank, but boosting Magic Points are added on).

(The reason the text exists is probably because SR is a very uneasy merging of Initiative and Action Points, and because of bad Cut&Paste jobs.) 

I think it may really be "You are in the presence of a Deity", making all these considerations moot.

Which leaves the very weird effect of pre-healing a wound that the recipient of the Heal Wound suffers on Strike Rank 7 with the supporting healer having chosen the action to wait and heal whoever needs it.

Coming from the RQ3 SRs as tact model, I have been a proponent of application of the meta-rule, but from a setting perspective, the priority rule might be defensible.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

I think it may really be "You are in the presence of a Deity", making all these considerations moot.

I don't think I want my RPG rules to be ineffable...