Identify Otherworld Entity question

[Shiningbrow]

IOE for short, is both Active and Temporal. In the description: The caster must ask a specific question about the spirit—such as the nature, identity, true name, genealogy, comparative power, or abilities of the spirit. If successful, the gamemaster gives an answer of up to seven words per point of spell strength.

Given it's both Active and Temporal, does that mean you can ask several spirits questions? Or the same spirit many questions? Or is the Temporal shorter than usual? (Or should really be Instant?)

Also, there's no mention of needing to overcome POW/Resistance... What's the significance of "If successful", other than the casting?

It also seems to imply that the entity is not answering, and is completely unawares of the interrogation. 

The significance is that, perhaps, 3 MPs and about 15 seconds can get you a spirit's true name... With no consequences or significant limitations.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

IOE for short, is both Active and Temporal. In the description: The caster must ask a specific question about the spirit—such as the nature, identity, true name, genealogy, comparative power, or abilities of the spirit. If successful, the gamemaster gives an answer of up to seven words per point of spell strength.

Given it's both Active and Temporal, does that mean you can ask several spirits questions? Or the same spirit many questions? Or is the Temporal shorter than usual? (Or should really be Instant?)

Also, there's no mention of needing to overcome POW/Resistance... What's the significance of "If successful", other than the casting?

It also seems to imply that the entity is not answering, and is completely unawares of the interrogation. 

The significance is that, perhaps, 3 MPs and about 15 seconds can get you a spirit's true name... With no consequences or significant limitations.

Overcoming resistance:

Sorcery doesn't match the caster's POW with that of the spell target. Instead, the intensity of the spell is matched against the target's POW to determine whether the target is affected.

Effectively, a sorcerous spell is a magical creature created by the sorcerer that attacks the spell's target, not very different from a Shade or Lune attacking a victim.

In this case, it is a magical entity of interrogation, forcing out core secrets of the entity probed that way. The equivalent of a stressful interrogation by police detectives in a mirrored room.

The basic cost of 3 MP may work on a bound spirit whose binding overcomes any of its resistance, but it won't work on spirit in the wild. The resistance must be broken first.

[Shiningbrow]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Overcoming resistance:

Sorcery doesn't match the caster's POW with that of the spell target. Instead, the intensity of the spell is matched against the target's POW to determine whether the target is affected.

Effectively, a sorcerous spell is a magical creature created by the sorcerer that attacks the spell's target, not very different from a Shade or Lune attacking a victim.

In this case, it is a magical entity of interrogation, forcing out core secrets of the entity probed that way. The equivalent of a stressful interrogation by police detectives in a mirrored room.

The basic cost of 3 MP may work on a bound spirit whose binding overcomes any of its resistance, but it won't work on spirit in the wild. The resistance must be broken first.

I know it probably *should* be that... But that's not what's written. Nor even implied, given how other spells have those details.

The other questions still remain - does the spirit provide the answers, or do they just magically pop into the caster's mind? Is the spirit aware? (Unlike the police interrogation)

You see - I can read this spell more like Geomancy, Pierce Veil, Identify Spell (we could argue it), Reveal Rune (also debatable), or Divination, Soul Sight etc. And thus, no requirement to overcome anything. It's like it's just reading the aura to get answers.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Tindalos]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Sorcery doesn't match the caster's POW with that of the spell target. Instead, the intensity of the spell is matched against the target's POW to determine whether the target is affected.

Page 391 and the Q&A say differently. Unless a spell specifies the intensity is used (such as Create Hallucinogen) any spell that can be resisted involves a POW vs POW roll (such as the Dominate ones, or Drain Soul)

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Also, there's no mention of needing to overcome POW/Resistance... What's the significance of "If successful", other than the casting?

From how it's written, there's no other significance there.

Of course, the True Name so far is only useful when Summoning something, with no other effects that I can see.

[Joerg]

Just now, Shiningbrow said:

I know it probably *should* be that... But that's not what's written. Nor even implied, given how other spells have those details.

The other questions still remain - does the spirit provide the answers, or do they just magically pop into the caster's mind? Is the spirit aware? (Unlike the police interrogation)

I do think that this is how it is written, it is how I read this to work. It lacks my statments above expressis verbis, and it might have saved some space in individual spell descriptions if presented as the general way sorcery spells work.

The meta-rule for sorcery spells overcoming the resistance of the victims with the points in the spell has not been spelled out as such in the general description of sorcery, which makes my conclusion not necessary the way that the authors have intended sorcery to work.

 

The spell works on spirits that don't have any awareness, so the answer does appear to pop up in the caster's mind. Probably in writing.

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I do think that this is how it is written, it is how I read this to work. It lacks my statments above expressis verbis, and it might have saved some space in individual spell descriptions if presented as the general way sorcery spells work.

The meta-rule for sorcery spells overcoming the resistance of the victims with the points in the spell has not been spelled out as such in the general description of sorcery, which makes my conclusion not necessary the way that the authors have intended sorcery to work.

 

The spell works on spirits that don't have any awareness, so the answer does appear to pop up in the caster's mind. Probably in writing.

The last bit (not the "probably in writing" 😋) I have to question... Especially since the caster won't know what it is. 

Unless you mean, "also works on spirits without awareness". In which case, I concur. 

As I wrote above, to me it reads more like a Divination, so no resistance roll required. The range factor adds to this... You could cast it on a spirit 500m away, and still have the answer pop into your head.

[Shiningbrow]

12 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Of course, the True Name so far is only useful when Summoning something, with no other effects that I can see.

RAW, yes. But to.me it would make sense for Dominate/Control spells to be impacted as well.

[Tindalos]

4 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

RAW, yes. But to.me it would make sense for Dominate/Control spells to be impacted as well.

Agreed, it would make a great piece of Sympathetic Magic if nothing else.

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Page 391 and the Q&A say differently. Unless a spell specifies the intensity is used (such as Create Hallucinogen) any spell that can be resisted involves a POW vs POW roll (such as the Dominate ones, or Drain Soul)

The Dominate case is this (from Dominate Humanoid, p.394):

Quote

If the target fails to resist the strength of the Dominate spell with their POW, the target falls under the caster’s domination.

The strength of the spell as the active force in the resistance roll, the target's POW the passive force. No mention of the caster's POW.

I grant you Drain Soul as a possible exception to this meta-rule, but it is the only exception I found. But then, Drain Soul is spirit combat by a slightly different means, and the spell might do nothing but initiate this soul-vs.-soul-wrestling that builds POW.

Drain Soul might be a typical training method between sorcerers to build up their spiritual muscle.

 

The weird "must have at least half as many MP as the subject's POW" might be to induce a minimum POW cost to attempt to dominate entities with low POW. A 2 point Dominate would give you a 20% chance to overcome a victim with 8 POW. Opponents with a POW of 18 or higher need more than half the opponent's POW in MP to have a chance at rolling on the resistance table at all. The extra phrasing is likely only to prevent munchkin from casting the minimal intensity spell repeatedly until it catches.

 

8 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Unless you mean, "also works on spirits without awareness". In which case, I concur. 

That's what I meant to say. It does work on spirits without awareness, but far from exclusively so.

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by Joerg

[Tindalos]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Dominate case is this (from Dominate Humanoid, p.394):

The strength of the spell as the active force in the resistance roll, the target's POW the passive force. No mention of the caster's POW.

 

Oh damn, thank you I'd misread it.

 

[Psullie]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Effectively, a sorcerous spell is a magical creature created by the sorcerer that attacks the spell's target, not very different from a Shade or Lune attacking a victim.

I really like this explanation of Sorcery - Cheers!