Trying to make sense of Salisbury Maps and names

[Luca Cherstich]

I really feel we need the Book of Salisbury.

I know there are differences between the Salisbury maps in KAP 5.2 and the Salisbury map in Warlord.

I tried to make sense of it, trying to refer to Warlord, as the most updated version (and also since I use the new economy, so hundred division are useful).

However, I found some problems.

This is the list of Hundreds and to whom they belong:

- Count Roderick: Roedeer, Dovesfield, Vagon, Bran's Hill, Hillfort, Brichford, Ebble, Underditch, Elmstump, Alder, Thorngate.

- Dowry of Ellen (so I guess they belong to Baron Wynchbank in 479 and then go to Earl Roderick with Marriage) : Anna's Water, Chiefsfield, Barehill.

- King Cadwy of Summerland (conquered by Earl Roderick in 482): Wheelwell, Westfort

- Sir Duach Baron of Wereside: Wereside

- Duke Eldol of Glevum: Hillfarm

- Baron Staterius of Thornbush: Swans 

- Abbot-Bishop Dylwin of Ambrius Abbey: Ambrius

- Prince Madoc: Woodhouse (he rules the castle, so I guess maybe also this small hundred)

 

Given this list, here are my questions:

 

1) Question 1

There are 7 Hundres in Salisbury with no holder published in the books, right?
They should be: Beautyfield, Churchford, Mere, Milkfield, Studfold, Kingsguard, Boarswood (also a Free Manor), 

Is this correct? We do not have yet any published book about their lords, right?

If so, I was thinking about using them to design new estates, maybe to be used for awarding prizes to the PCs from the King and maybe I can make them hold by random NPC lords for the moment.

 

2) Question 2

Where is the Forest of the Trench (which is often mentioned in Book of Warlod, as a holding of Earl Roderick?). It does not appear in any map!

 

3) Question 3

I guess all basic £10 manors from KAP 5.2 (and the manors which 5.2 say to belong to heiresses) should be in the Earl's hundreds....are these single £10 subtracted from the assized rent of the Earl? (I Know it does not matter in terms of story....but I just want to know).

 

3) Question 4

There are so many differences between KAP 5.2. place-names and map and these new maps.
For example in KAP 5.2 p.71 Sir Hywell is the Banneret of West Lavington and Sir Amig is the castellan of  TIlshead.

Now it seems that both places are gone and Amig is just the Dapifier.

I have a suspect that Tilshead = Borders Castle (since they are both fortified towns), even if Borders is now rules by an otherwise unknon Sir Bryn (or Sir Hyfaidd according to the Marriage of Count Roderick).

Am I correct? 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Luca Cherstich

[Luca Cherstich]

Question 5 Another question (Related to my question 1).

If I want to design my own new estates from those 7 "free" hundreds...but where can I see the Render/Assized Rent of the hundred?

I tried was Greg Stafford suggesting in Book of Estate p.109 and I went to the Open Domesday Book, but it was impossible to find the Salisbury Hundreds names.

I know there is a lot of change and fantasy compared to history, but I was wondering how do you all manage issues like these?

Just create ad-hoc assized rents without considering the possible medieval reality in Domesday Book?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Luca Cherstich

[fulk]

The format of the Open Domesday has  changed.  You used to be able to see the geld for each settlement when you looked at the hundreds. Now it shows households. I think at the time, Greg just cut and past stuff into an excel file. 

There is an API.  I used it ages ago do download the Domesday data to make a Book of Estate spread sheet.  You might try the API. There are some examples if you follow the API links. The data are nice to have because they include Lat/Lon data so that you can also map out the locations of larger holdings.

One thing I can't remember is what data Greg used for the values.  The Domesday Book lists value to the lord in 1066, 1086, and the geld.  Greg used some percentage of one of those for the value of the settlements in a hundred.

Edited March 17, 2020 by fulk

[Luca Cherstich]

4 minutes ago, fulk said:

 

There is an API.  I used it ages ago do download the Domesday data to make a Book of Estate spread sheet.  You might try that.

 

Thanks a lot....but I do not know what an API is.

I've seen there are links about hundreds here suggested as "API methods"

https://opendomesday.org/api/

But really, if I click on them I just get a mess.

[Atgxtg]

This might help a little:

•  Most of the place names in Book of Warlord, and Book of Uther were later retconned back to the names they were referred to in earlier books (basically, later Anglo-Saxon names) as most people had a hard time figure out which new place was where. So you don't have to take any of the newer place names as they are.
• There is a list posted in a thread here taken from the old Nocturnal Forums that explains what new locations names from BoU/BoW are known by today. I'll post a link if I can find it. I think this might be it:    https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9867-location-name-changes/?tab=comments#comment-146356
• A Book of Salisbury was announced some time back, and I agree with you that we need one. Since Salisbury is the home campaign area for the vast majority of Pendragon campaigns, it would make sense for it to be covered in more detail.
• "Salisbury" as it exists in Pendragon doesn't exist today, with it lands being parts of other counties, especially Wiltshire.
• The £10 rent/income for manors is a average income and also a somewhat arbitrary value. We do not really know what the actual size and income of a  Knight's fee was. We can get some values from sources such as the Domesday Book, but those are for a specific date and taken out of context. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Morien]

46 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I have a suspect that Tilshead = Borders Castle (since they are both fortified towns), even if Borders is now rules by an otherwise unknon Sir Bryn (or Sir Hyfaidd according to the Marriage of Count Roderick).

No. Borders Castle = Devizes Castle. Streamfield is a market town (and market towns are fortified), and matches Tilshead pretty well.

[fulk]

Hmm.  they seem to not work well any more. 

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

They should be: Beautyfield, Churchford, Mere, Milkfield, Studfold, Kingsguard, Boarswood (also a Free Manor), 

WARLORD, p. 97: "Salisbury has hundreds held by Clarence (Hillfarm), the Marche (Mere), Bishop of Venta (Chalkhill), Thornbush Castle (Swans), and Caercolun (Studfold)."

I am pretty sure that Milkfield is mentioned somewhere as well... Hah, found it, UTHER, p. 107: "The Count of Salisbury claims the Westfort and Wheelwell hundreds, Baron Gentian seizes the Milkfield hundred and Duke of the Marche (who is also the Lord of Leir’s Castle) occupies
the Mere hundred."

WARLORD, p. 110: "The king holds Kingsguard Hundred as part of his personal demesne,"

Edited March 17, 2020 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

Oh, I find this site: https://www.british-history.ac.uk/search to be a good place for information of manors and other places. It uses the Doomeday book and some other soruces to give to an overview and history of places, and often has building plans, size of manors, incomes, bits of local lore and color, and the names and arms of whoever held a place.

 

It might be helpful to others.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Where is the Forest of the Trench (which is often mentioned in Book of Warlod, as a holding of Earl Roderick?). It does not appear in any map!

Grovely Forest. It is the forest you can see around R. Nadder in WARLORD Salisbury map p. 196-197.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Morien

[Luca Cherstich]

What a mess!

I remember the whole name problem from the old forums and now that, for the first time, I'm starting doing KAP seriously as a GM, I realize the whole size of the mess!

It's difficult to explain to others things which are even unclear to me (we are all Italians, with minimal knowledge of UK geography at local level).

In any case, thanks a lot to all of you!

 

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

I guess all basic £10 manors from KAP 5.2 (and the manors which 5.2 say to belong to heiresses) should be in the Earl's hundreds....are these single £10 subtracted from the assized rent of the Earl? (I Know it does not matter in terms of story....but I just want to know).

Yes, including Ellen's dowry. The impact of these manors is already accounted for in Roderick's vassals on WARLORD p. 112: "Vassals: £264"

In other words, the vassal manors are part of the Count's Total Customary Revenue, but not part of his Demesne Customary Revenue. See Appendix D for more.

But for example, if the Count has a hundred that is marked down as £70 and he has two £10 vassal PK manors in that hundred, then he collects £50 as demesne customary revenue and each PK would have their own £10 manors.

[Atgxtg]

10 minutes ago, Morien said:

Grovely Forest. 

Therte is an old Iroage Age Hillfort near there, Groverly Castle.

I also looked up the nearby manor of Little Langford at the British History site I mentioned above, and found out the place has a chace and a local custom of the serfs being able to go into the forest and and gather wood on one day a year.

 

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Borders is now rules by an otherwise unknon Sir Bryn (or Sir Hyfaidd according to the Marriage of Count Roderick).

Clearly, Sir Hyfaidd dies/is retired from the post between early 480s and 495!

[Morien]

1 hour ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Just create ad-hoc assized rents without considering the possible medieval reality in Domesday Book?

Seriously, unless you have way too much time in your hands, just ad hoc some values, maybe by eyeballing the size of the hundred in relation to the hundreds for which we have values already (not always an exact science since some part of those hundreds might be held by someone else, too). In the end, it seriously doesn't matter that much if the 'right' value is £40 or £60. It is what you said in your campaign it would be. As long as it is reasonable (rather than valuing one hundred at £600 or something like that), no one will even notice.

[Luca Cherstich]

23 minutes ago, Morien said:

WARLORD, p. 97: "Salisbury has hundreds held by Clarence (Hillfarm), the Marche (Mere), Bishop of Venta (Chalkhill), Thornbush Castle (Swans), and Caercolun (Studfold)."

I am pretty sure that Milkfield is mentioned somewhere as well... Hah, found it, UTHER, p. 107: "The Count of Salisbury claims the Westfort and Wheelwell hundreds, Baron Gentian seizes the Milkfield hundred and Duke of the Marche (who is also the Lord of Leir’s Castle) occupies
the Mere hundred."

WARLORD, p. 110: "The king holds Kingsguard Hundred as part of his personal demesne,"

OK....so

Hundred Mere to Duke of Marche = Sir Edaris

Hundred Milkfiled to Baron Gentian = Sir ????

Hundred Studfold to "Caercolun" = Sir ???????

Kingsguard Hundred to the King....but what about Woodhouse, since there's Prince Madoc Castle in Woodhouse?

[fulk]

I agree with Morien, although I don't follow that advice!  Greg constantly tinkered, so there are a lot of inconsistencies.  Many of the PK manors listed in KAP 5.2 and earlier are not worth 10L in the Domesday data. It is hard to make some things match up properly.  It is a gran roturre di palle. 

I kind of hate all the KAP place names.  It makes everything difficult. I would pay good money to have Uther, Estates and Warlord redone using the modern place names, so everything is easy to find on a map.

 

[Morien]

9 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

OK....so

Hundred Mere to Duke of Marche = Sir Edaris

Hundred Milkfiled to Baron Gentian = Sir ????

Best guess: Sir Dryw, Baron of Sparrowhawk Castle C (Gentian). He is the only Baron (of the Sword) who has a castle in Gentian.

9 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Hundred Studfold to "Caercolun" = Sir ???????

Duke Lucius of the Saxon Shore, even if Studfold is missing from his list of holdings. He is the only noble I would refer to as Caercolun, just as Eldol gets referred to by Clarence in Hillfarm (itself a bit off, since it is still unitary Glevum). I take this as a simple omission.

9 minutes ago, Luca Cherstich said:

Kingsguard Hundred to the King....but what about Woodhouse, since there's Prince Madoc Castle in Woodhouse?

I would expect Madoc to hold Woodhouse Hundred, yes.

[Luca Cherstich]

4 minutes ago, fulk said:

gran roturre di palle.

AH! Thank you for putting some good Italian!

[Morien]

4 minutes ago, fulk said:

I kind of hate all the KAP place names.  It makes everything difficult. I would pay good money to have Uther, Estates and Warlord redone using the modern place names, so everything is easy to find on a map.

Preach it, brother! Can I get an AAA-MEN?!

[fulk]

AAAA-PERSON.  😃

I wonder what it would take to 'find and replace' all the place names...and update the files...I'd even buy new hard copies.

[Luca Cherstich]

I understood that Greg Stafford said that Nocturnal was meant to update sooner or later Uther/Warlord/Estate going back to the modern names ... but as we all know, it never happened.

Do we know if Chaosium ever got an official position about the problem?

After all, they are still selling PDFs of Uther/Warlord/Estate with the New/Abandoned naming system.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Luca Cherstich

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

Preach it, brother! Can I get an AAA-MEN?!

Well, assuming that any of the KAP5 supplements matter with KAP6, I'll support that idea. There are some new place names that are okay, and work, especially those that cover previously unidentified areas, but a lot of the renaming just made things more confusing. It's pretty bad when a long term GM doesn't know where the Earl (Count)'s castle is. If we are having trouble, I can only imagine what the learning curve is like for a new GM.  

 

Considering that there is a list of place names and the nature of PDFs, It wouldn't seem all that difficult to put the alternate place names in parentheses, such as Du Plain (Motisfont) or some such. 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Atgxtg

[Tizun Thane]

To be honest, I never bothered with hundreds and the like, and I am very happy. I use the new 10£ manor system of the Book of Estate Rules without it.

My Salisbury is simpler. The count, a few powerful bannerets (Devizes, Du Plain, etc.), a bit more of minors vassals knights with their little manor, and the rest in bachelors knights. It's easier to understand that way, and it's more faithful to my vision of the arthurian feodality.

The Book of the Warlord is inspired by the english feodality after the norman conquest. My vision is closer to french feodality, with powerful vassals of the king.

[Luca Cherstich]

In the campaign that I've started only 1 PC is a Vassal Knight with manor, the other 3 are all Household Knights.
Getting a manor or estate (and maybe get married) are among their future aims and dreams: this is why I tried to understand the situation of feudal holdings in Salisbury.

But, given the difficulty that I have understanding the confusing status of published information, I feel that I'll just go on a day-by-day basis, trying to understand the picture or creating my own stuff only according to the specific story needs, whatever the official books say...although it is frankly a bother, given that I paid money for Uther, Warlord and the Map Folio!!

They are all good books and great material to read and get tons of inspiration about so many topics (especially Uther) ... but the whole place names problems is just so bad, as it is bad that they spoke about hundreds, without proper indications about how to use them in Salisbury.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Luca Cherstich