Questions about Spirits

[jajagappa]

Over in the RQ page on Facebook there was a question posed: "I really need a video or document that fully describes Spirit rules before I can run RQG." and elaborated as "Just some of the things I would like to see written out plain and simple in one place"

Specific details noted were:

1. Are spirits visible or invisible? can they change this at will?
2. Is a Discorporate PC just a spirit?
3. Is a Ghost a spirit?
4. Can you bind a spirit into any old object?
5. Can you bind a Ghost into any old object?
6. Can you bind a Discorporate PC into any old object?
7. What's the point of Spirit trapping crystals when you can bind spirits into normal objects?
8. Can a spirit bound into an object go discorporate at will?
9. Can a discorporate PC look around a dungeon/building/ruin and scout out everything without any risks?
10. Can a fetch look around a dungeon/building/ruin without risks?
11. How fast can a spirit move?
12. Whats an axis mundi?
13. Can a spirit possess a PC? How about a Ghost? What happens to the PCs spirit? Is it then a discorporate spirit?

Here are my thoughts/responses (and I do recommend re-reading the chapter on the Spirit World in RQG and the chapter on Spirits in the RQG Bestiary):

1. They are generally invisible.  You don't walk around seeing the spirits of the rocks, trees, individuals, etc. in the mundane world.  You need magic to do so (e.g. Detect Spirit).  Generally the only way to make a spirit visible in the mundane world is to cast Visibility.  Note: there are spirits that can manifest (i.e. become visible) in the mundane world.  Nymphs can shift between the mundane and the spirit world.  Ghosts (and similar) are spirits bound to the mundane world and can materialize to attack.

2. No and yes.  A Discorporate PC has a living body which they are still connected to.  So, no, they are not a spirit.  But, a discorporate PC is separated from their body and is in the Spirit World, so to any other spirit they look and act like a spirit.  If the body of the Discorporate PC dies while they are discorporate, their connection with the mundane world is severed and they are now just a spirit in the Spirit World.

3. Yes. See Bestiary p.170: "Ghosts are the spirits of the restless dead. Ghosts found on the Middle World are always tied to a specific site or object, and either cannot leave or must return if they do leave."  As it notes, ghosts are those spirits who have become bound to the mundane world and cannot get to the Spirit World (where they belong).

4. No. It needs to be an enchanted object.  See for example RQG p.265 on the Spirit Binding spell and its references: "see the Binding Enchantment spell on page 249 and Binding Spirits into Animals on page 250 for more information. Binding spirits into familiars demands the use of special cult-bred animals described in the Spirits chapter. Magical objects for holding spirits can be made using the Binding Enchantment ritual (page 249), others can be obtained from a temple or while adventuring."  Spirit-binding crystals are similar "magical objects" that can be used.

5. No. Same as above.

6. No. Same as above.

In all of these cases, you must have an appropriate binding object available (enchanted object or cult-bred animal which serves as the "magical object").  Then you must defeat the spirit (or obtain agreement from it if it is friendly as with a cult spirit), and then command it into the bound object.

7. The point is that you cannot bind spirits into "normal" objects.  They must be enchanted objects.  The value of the spirit-binding crystal is that it does not require you to create an enchantment - it is effectively one already.

8. A spirit bound into an object is effectively "trapped" in that object.  In an animal familiar, it is trapped within/shares the animal.  In an object, it is within it.  You cannot "see" the spirit any more than you can see the spirit within a rock or a tree (or a person or an animal).  To "see" it requires use of magic.  It cannot "discorporate" at will either - it is bound in the object.  The person who can use the enchantment (or crystal) can use magic (a Command/Control spell) to bring the spirit out of the enchantment and ask it to do something (and then return to the binding object). If you forget to tell it to return, the spirit will be discorporate and can return to the Spirit World.  Bringing a spirit out of an enchantment does not automatically make it visible - you need the Visibility spell to make it seen in the mundane world.

9. Not without becoming Visible in the mundane world.  A discorporate spirit is in the Spirit World still.  The Spirit World "at that place" may or may not look like the mundane world, but it is NOT the mundane world.  For instance, a spirit that exists in an apple tree around Apple Lane, may be part of a Great Orchard within the Spirit World.  Likely the great mountain Kero Fin is visible in the distance (since it exists both in the real and Spirit worlds).  But there is no "Apple Lane" village there - no humans going about their day-to-day lives (that's in the real world).  But there may be a Great Fountain of Life nearby for Uleria has blessed the site (i.e. there is a shrine to her in Apple Lane, and this manifests on the Spirit Plane as well).  Perhaps the Swan River flows through the Great Orchard, for the Swan Maiden resides in her pool near the place.  And maybe the Thunder Oak stands upon a hill above the Great Orchard.

A PC or shaman who discorporates near Apple Lane can go explore these places.  This is what they see.  There is no Tin Inn to investigate or look around in.  No Gringle's Pawnshop, etc.  

If a PC has a bound spirit, they could release them from their enchanted binding, make them Visible (i.e. cast Visibility), and then send the spirit off to look around in the "real world".  That spirit could have some sense of what is nearby, BUT remember the spirit is not of "this world".  It may see the auras of the living, or perhaps have some ability to detect things that are "magical" but will not be able to see and describe the place settings at a table.

10. When a shaman is in their body, the fetch serves as their "eyes on the Spirit Plane".  The fetch can "see" those spirits around and more or less identify what is "nearby" in the Spirit World.  The fetch is effectively a "discorporate" part of the shaman.  When the shaman becomes Discorporate, the fetch guards the shaman's body and is visible around it in the mundane world.  But the shaman is in the Spirit World and sees only what is there (unless they cast Visibility upon their discorporate form and then are visible within the mundane world and can use their senses to see living auras, etc. - but they could not see the place setting at a table).

The shaman cannot send the fetch off away from his/her self - the fetch is part of the shaman.  (and even if they could, the fetch is in the Spirit Plane, so as noted above in point 9, they would not observe anything in the real world).   

11. As in the entries in the Bestiary beginning on p.167, most have "Move: Equal to POW"

12. The "axis" of the world.  The world tree.  The Spike.  The centerpoint.  Etc. Effectively it's a Sacred Space where the mundane world and the Spirit World (and potentially other aspects of the Otherworld) all come together.  See RQG p.318.  It's a sanctuary, protected space, and a portal to the other world.

13. yes. yes. Generally trapped within the body (see Covert and Dominant Possession, RQG p.370).  Generally not, though there might be occasional instances where this could occur (e.g. a spirit invades and takes over the body of a Discorporate PC - in that case the spirit possesses the body, and the PC is now a spirit lost in the Spirit World with no way back to the body.  This is why a shaman has a fetch - it prevents this from happening.) 

[Gallowglass]

Your answers to question 9 and 10 are really helpful. I always allowed my shaman PC to scout with her fetch, or other spirits. But this seemed overpowered to me. I like those limitations. 

[Adiousir]

Hi I am the original poster. Your answers are great, thanks, I think I am getting the picture. Couple of points- are the Great Orchard etc gateways from the Spirit Plane to the Gods World? And if I do bind a discorporate PC into a magical object what happens to their body? Thanks?

[GAZZA]

7 hours ago, Gallowglass said:

Your answers to question 9 and 10 are really helpful. I always allowed my shaman PC to scout with her fetch, or other spirits. But this seemed overpowered to me. I like those limitations. 

Note that a discorporate shaman can still scout - they're just not invisible while they do it. This is still a very useful ability, if somewhat less useful.

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, Adiousir said:

Your answers are great, thanks, I think I am getting the picture.

Welcome to the BRP Forums!  Glad those thoughts and comments are helping.  

50 minutes ago, Adiousir said:

And if I do bind a discorporate PC into a magical object what happens to their body?

Pretty much the same as a body after you die.  It begins to decay (which is expressed as loss of Characteristic points), and after 7 days if the spirit of the PC has not returned, you really want to bury the corpse.

Theoretically, you could enchant the body and bind some other spirit to it, but you are very close to necromancy at that point (assuming the spirit can successfully animate the body - most spirits likely could not).

54 minutes ago, Adiousir said:

are the Great Orchard etc gateways from the Spirit Plane to the Gods World?

Not necessarily, though they could be.  

If you look on the list in RQG p.377, you'll see various examples given that are in the mundane world and are spirit vortices (where you are always likely to find certain types of spirits or ghosts).  Some are also gateways to the Gods World - you can usually get a sense of this if there is a god involved.  So, Grizzly Peak, the Hill of Orlanth Victorious, Kero Fin, Stormwalk Mountain, and Whitewall are all associated with Gods (and particular heroquests of those gods) and definitely are crossing points.

In the list of taboos in RQG p.363 are some other examples of important spirit places:  the Great Herd, Bulldry, Daka Fal's Fire, Earth Camp, Hunter's Camp, Roost, Serpent Ground.  These are likely not gateways to the Gods World and only exist in the Spirit World.  However, a shaman going to such a place may know the spirit paths to other gateways.  For instance, from the Hunter's Camp you may be able to enter the Great Forest.  If you go deep enough into the Great Forest you may come to the Nightwood.  And the Nightwood borders the Gods World (or perhaps is part of the Gods World) during the Great Darkness.  

An important thing to keep in mind with both the Spirit World and the Gods World is that Time does not exist in either.  And similarly the spatial constructs of the mundane world do not hold in the same way.  I like to think of the Spirit World like a vast lava lamp - the parts of the Spirit World move, shift, and flow about.  Some parts are ALWAYS connected to the mundane world (i.e. spirit vortices), some parts are close and like "mirror" worlds, some parts almost never are.  How you move between such places depends on how well you know how to read the "currents" of the Spirit World's ever changing pattern.

 

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Note that a discorporate shaman can still scout - they're just not invisible while they do it.

It is not automatic though.  Per HQG p.357 "If the discorporate shaman wishes to interact with creatures on the Mundane World, they must then use the Visibility spell."

That IMO means that the discorporate shaman cannot "see" the mundane world or scout within it.

[Lordabdul]

I'm going to post what I posted on Facebook for discussion's sake, and then compare notes with Harald:

1) Spirits are typically invisible, but some spirits can become visible at will. Others, especially very old ones, only exist in the Spirit World and never become visible.

2) Yes. A mortal is a body plus a spirit. Discorporation is detaching your spirit from your body.

3) Yes. Unlike other spirits like dryads or nymphs, a ghost is specifically the spirit of a deceased mortal, and is often tied to ("haunting") a place or object somehow.

4) I'm gonna say yes.

5) Also yes.

6) Probably yes, if you beat it in Spirit Combat? Also, see the nasty Death Binding spell that Tusk Riders have in the RQ Bestiary.

7) Binding a spirit to an object requires sacrificing POW based on how many stats the spirit has. Binding a spirit to a crystal doesn't require that so it's much easier.

😎 No it's bound to the object... it's stuck in there. If it could discoporate it would escape in the Spirit World.

9) That varies from GM to GM I think. I allow it but remember that a discorporate PC can only see the Spirit World: it might see the spirit of NPCs (guards, etc.) but might also see any ghosts or other spirits haunting the place. It wouldn't see if there are any undead armies in there. Also, the farther you go from your body, the less correlation there is between the Spirit World and the Mundane World, so you'd have to get close to the building you want to scout, leaving your body defenseless to physical harm or any evil spirits looking for an easy possession.

10) Same as above, but with less/different risks.

11) Remember that spirits aren't just invisible ghosts who wander around the world. They really exist in a different world (the Spirit World) but can occasionally cross over. When you move in the Spirit World, you move along a different set of dimensions. A spirit might move around "a bit" while being visible before attacking someone in Spirit Combat, but that's pretty much it. Yes, it's vague. Probably on purpose.

12) An Axis Mundi is effectively a spirit sanctuary. Spirits who don't know how to make themselves visible can do so here, can "find" this sanctuary more easily than other places in the Mundane and Spirit World, and will be a lot more docile when they arrive. It's useful for dealing ancestor spirits without running the risk of evil spirits or aggressive ancestor ghosts crashing the party.

13) Spirits can possess a PC, and will probably try to do that once in a while, because it's a fun kind of danger to throw are your players. When possessed, what happens with the PC's spirit depends on the type of possession. With a dominant possession, the PC's spirit is trapped and crushed under the evil spirit. The PC effectively becomes an NPC (unless the player moves on to play the evil spirit!). With covert possession, the PC's spirit is still in control of the body, but that control is obviously or secretly altered (disease, madness, etc.)

 

Now let's see where we differ:

 

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

2. No and yes.  A Discorporate PC has a living body which they are still connected to.  So, no, they are not a spirit.  But, a discorporate PC is separated from their body and is in the Spirit World, so to any other spirit they look and act like a spirit.  If the body of the Discorporate PC dies while they are discorporate, their connection with the mundane world is severed and they are now just a spirit in the Spirit World.

I answered "yes" here since, well, if it looks like a spirit and behaves like a spirit, then it's a... duck? Errr, a spirit I mean. The fact that it's a spirit that still has a body waiting for it back on the Mundane Plane doesn't make it any less of a spirit to me.

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4. No. It needs to be an enchanted object.

I replied "yes" here because I considered that the enchantment of the object was part of the binding ritual (it's called a "binding enchantment" after all!). But you're right that technically it's 2 spells, so your answer is more correct.

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5. No. Same as above.

6. No. Same as above.

Also as above, your answer is more correct.

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9. Not without becoming Visible in the mundane world.  A discorporate spirit is in the Spirit World still.  The Spirit World "at that place" may or may not look like the mundane world, but it is NOT the mundane world.  For instance, a spirit that exists in an apple tree around Apple Lane, may be part of a Great Orchard within the Spirit World.  Likely the great mountain Kero Fin is visible in the distance (since it exists both in the real and Spirit worlds).  But there is no "Apple Lane" village there - no humans going about their day-to-day lives (that's in the real world).  But there may be a Great Fountain of Life nearby for Uleria has blessed the site (i.e. there is a shrine to her in Apple Lane, and this manifests on the Spirit Plane as well).  Perhaps the Swan River flows through the Great Orchard, for the Swan Maiden resides in her pool near the place.  And maybe the Thunder Oak stands upon a hill above the Great Orchard.

A PC or shaman who discorporates near Apple Lane can go explore these places.  This is what they see.  There is no Tin Inn to investigate or look around in.  No Gringle's Pawnshop, etc.  

If a PC has a bound spirit, they could release them from their enchanted binding, make them Visible (i.e. cast Visibility), and then send the spirit off to look around in the "real world".  That spirit could have some sense of what is nearby, BUT remember the spirit is not of "this world".  It may see the auras of the living, or perhaps have some ability to detect things that are "magical" but will not be able to see and describe the place settings at a table.

That's a good answer -- ultimately I think we more or less agree here.

I would however tend to make the immediate surroundings of the Spirit World (near where the PC discorporated) more or less recognizable (in terms of their correlation with the Mundane World) if you squint hard and tilt your head, so to speak. You wouldn't see the trees or buildings or other physical features per se (unless they have a spirit themselves), but you might see the shape of the hill from its nature spirits, and you might see the buildings from the grouped people's spirits there.

The main thing, here, is that to me all the physical beings in the Mundane World have their spirits visible to the spirits on the Spirit Plane. The reasons for this are two-fold:

1. There's a rule somewhere that specifies how "far" you can perceive spirits of a certain POW level, which indicates to me there's a bit of a correlation between the two.
2. Many spirits (madness, disease, etc...) must be able to see people's spirits or auras or whatever in order to be able to attack and possess them. Actually, any spirit needs to be able to perceive people in the Mundane World otherwise half the time they would become visible randomly in the wrong place, turned the wrong way, etc. Imagine if you disturbed some ancient enchanted relic and suddenly the guardian spirit appears, his back turned to you: "WHO DISTURBS THE.... errr... <turns around> oh, you're here. Ahem, where was I? Oh yes... WHO DISTURBS THE SPIRIT OF KING BUNGALOR?"

But I'm fine having slightly differing interpretations of the Spirit World -- I think we're in the same ballpark there.

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11. As in the entries in the Bestiary beginning on p.167, most have "Move: Equal to POW"

Ah I was certain I had seen a rule like this somewhere but I was looking the RQG rulebook. Thanks! Like I said in my answer, I use this only for moving around the battlemat during a battle, but not for anything farther -- most likely spirits travel in the Spirit World and not in the Mundane World for anything that doesn't require interacting with mortals.... although I guess it could be possible to have a visible discorporate spirit tag along with you on a long hike? To me that would require moving while being visible in the Mundane World. Moving while being discorporate means you move along those "other" dimensions of the Spirit World, and therefore not where you want in this case.

Thanks!

Edited July 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It is not automatic though.  Per HQG p.357 "If the discorporate shaman wishes to interact with creatures on the Mundane World, they must then use the Visibility spell."

That IMO means that the discorporate shaman cannot "see" the mundane world or scout within it.

"Interact" to me means "talk to them or attack them", not "spying on them from afar". I wouldn't call looking at people walk down the street "interacting with them". I'm fine with your interpretation of the Spirit World but like I said before, I think spirits needs to be able to "see" people otherwise some practical things don't make sense to me.

Edited July 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I would however tend to make the immediate surroundings of the Spirit World (near where the PC discorporated) more or less recognizable (in terms of their correlation with the Mundane World) if you squint hard and tilt your head, so to speak. You wouldn't see the trees or buildings or other physical features per se (unless they have a spirit themselves), but you might see the shape of the hill from its nature spirits, and you might see the buildings from the grouped people's spirits there.

I think recognizability depends on how much the place is "proximate" to the Spirit World.  

For instance, when my PC's went into the Spirit Plane along the Nymie river (Orlmarth clan land), they could see a world that was familiar (Kero Fin clearly visible, also the Starfire Ridges).

Yet, following along the trail through the Guardian Woods (also somewhat familiar) they emerged near the Swamp of the Vough.

It was a hazy, murky, and dark place.  Nothing familiar nearby, yet in the mundane world this spot was simply part of the area between the Guardian Woods and the Starfire Ridges.

It "shouldn't" consistently correspond, but come-and-go as the story dictates.

Unless the buildings have spirits, or have established some other presence (hence my suggestion of a Fountain of Life where the Uleria Temple of Apple Lane might be), then I do not think you'll see buildings.  And I don't believe that embodied beings in the mundane world are typically visible to any significant degree in the Spirit World.  Except shamans because they have a fetch which definitely IS visible.  (And probably Heroes)

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

that to me all the physical beings in the Mundane World have their spirits visible to the spirits on the Spirit Plane

As above, I generally disagree with this (except for ghosts and similar which are bound to the mundane world).  Visibility implies that the spirits can readily find and interact with you.  If that were the case, then there's no inherent need for the Axis Mundi spell to act "as a beacon (much akin to a lighthouse) that enhances a spirit’s chances of finding their way to the shaman and this sacred portal".  And this is drawing the spirit to the shaman, not to others around.  

That said, RQG p.365 does note "Discorporate spirits can sense other spirits and sources of POW at a range of roughly 10 meters per points of POW."  And "These discorporate entities normally exist only in the Spirit World, although they can manifest in and interact with the Middle World. These spirits practically swarm around sacred ground (any place where sacrifices have been made to gods)."

Of course, there really is no spatial concept within the Spirit World, so unless a spirit (such as a nymph or genius loci or cult spirit) is tied to a place in the mundane world, then these small spots of spiritual "light" will probably not attract a spirit's attention.  After all "Spirits are normally indifferent to the physical world".

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

But I'm fine having slightly differing interpretations of the Spirit World

And I think this is the important point - there's a give-and-take here where this is not all literally spelled out in concrete detail.  It provides the GM the flexibility to make it consistent with what they want or need in their stories.  

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

I think spirits needs to be able to "see" people otherwise some practical things don't make sense to me

I think it's fine if this is a spiritual "aura" that registers to some degree upon the spirit's senses.  But if it's one of many (including embodied beings and other spirits), then is it something that will generate any interest for the spirit?

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I think recognizability depends on how much the place is "proximate" to the Spirit World.  

For instance, [....]

Yep, agreed, that's more or less how I picture it.

But for instance to get to those landmarks that you can see in the Spirit World (like Kero Fin or Starfire Ridges, as you say), you would potentially take different paths than the path you'd take in the Spirit World. The path might be longer or shorter, and you might get lost on the way. I see it a bit like hyperspace between solar systems and other "known locations", in a some way.

You might also see landmarks that don't seem to have any correspondence in the Mundane World, like your Swamp of the Vough, yeah. I think one difference is that when discorporate PCs start travelling in the Spirit World, I might take them more quickly (but gradually) into a completely different universe, where there's less and less correlation with the Mundane World, until you grab onto a vortex or other landmark to help you come "back down" nearer to the Mundane World.

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Unless the buildings have spirits, or have established some other presence (hence my suggestion of a Fountain of Life where the Uleria Temple of Apple Lane might be), then I do not think you'll see buildings.

Yes, agreed -- you don't see the building itself unless it has some significance for the Spirit World.

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As above, I generally disagree with this (except for ghosts and similar which are bound to the mundane world).  Visibility implies that the spirits can readily find and interact with you.  If that were the case, then there's no inherent need for the Axis Mundi spell to act "as a beacon (much akin to a lighthouse) that enhances a spirit’s chances of finding their way to the shaman and this sacred portal".  And this is drawing the spirit to the shaman, not to others around.  

IMO there's a difference between mundane people's spirit being visible to the Spirit World, and that spirit being easy to locate or get to.

Again, to me, travelling in the Spirit World is different from travelling in the Mundane World: the two don't match one-to-one at all. Most of the time the spirits in the Spirit World just travel across this "higher dimension" than ours and don't see our spirits at all as a result. They would have to "come down", "near" the Mundane Plane, to perceive our spirit (at which point they can choose to become visible to attack us or something). But "coming down" requires figuring where you are in the Spirit World in relation to the Mundane World.

To draw a parallel with hyperspace again, it's like navigating at hyperspeed without a functional navigation computer: you're flying around blind and if you stop and exit hyperspeed, who knows where you'll show up in the universe. Sure you might come out where there's a solar system with people in it (if you're lucky... in most cases, you end up nowhere), but that would be random people. If you want to attack people randomly that's fine, but if you're looking for someone or something specifically, that doesn't work. So in that sense, Axis Mundi and other such spells are acting like a navigation computer, and it lets the spirits "come down" from the higher dimensions of the Spirit World, near the Mundane World, in the specific place they are looking for (instead of something random). As you said, it's like a lighthouse of some kind.

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That said, RQG p.365 does note "Discorporate spirits can sense other spirits and sources of POW at a range of roughly 10 meters per points of POW."  And "These discorporate entities normally exist only in the Spirit World, although they can manifest in and interact with the Middle World. These spirits practically swarm around sacred ground (any place where sacrifices have been made to gods)."

Yep so while they're "near" the Mundane World they can travel (even while invisible) by "staying low". I think that it takes effort and they tend to get sucked "back up" and away from the Mundane World, unless they use a Visibility spell or other thing. I haven't quite defined that. But the rulebook does mention something along those lines, that you get slowly sucked into the outer regions.

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I think it's fine if this is a spiritual "aura" that registers to some degree upon the spirit's senses.  But if it's one of many (including embodied beings and other spirits), then is it something that will generate any interest for the spirit?

Like I said, IMG the spirits that manage to "come down" near the Mundane Plane (or a discorporated PC that is "staying low") would see the spirit part of a physical being. That's this "spiritual aura" you're talking about. You can sense the POW of the person (maybe, based on the rules for this). Note that this offers very limited scouting because someone's spirit is often different from they physical form. You don't "see the person" as in "you see the physical person the same way another physical person would see them". Maybe that's the part I didn't explain correctly.

So for example IMG a PC might discorporate a 100m away from a stone tower. Once discorporated, she navigates in the same direction in the Spirit World, half blindly because there might not be any obvious correlation with the hills around the stone tower there. But she can see 5 spirits huddled together there -- she can assume that's a bunch of NPCs in the tower (but maybe not! It might be 5 little dryads living in the bush next to it!). But seeing their spirits doesn't tell her much: she can't see what weapons or armour they have because their spirits aren't representative of that (one NPC might appear as a child version of himself, another NPC might be a mighty warrior when he's really far from that, another NPC's spirit might look like a very blurry animal, etc...). Also, the stone tower might have a couple of spirits tied to it, and there are really only 3 NPCs out of the 5 spirits she can see... etc.

Anyway that's how I'm playing it so far, but of course I might change my mind as I go...

Edited July 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Nick Brooke]

Here's my answers, including cross-references to the RQG core rules and the Bestiary. Apologies for any duplication.

Are spirits visible or invisible? Can they change this at will?

See the Visibility spirit magic spell on p.267 of RQG. A spirit on which Visibility is cast (by itself, a friend or an enemy) becomes visible in the Middle World as a translucent form, can cast spells or otherwise interact with the Mundane World, and can be targeted by spells. Some otherworld creatures, including spirits that can initiate spirit combat, possess this as a natural ability that costs no magic points to utilise. A spirit (inc. a discorporate shaman) must become visible in the Middle World in order to attack a corporeal being: RQG p.366.
Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight (RQG p.264 has the spirit magic spell, p.358 has the baseline shamanic ability and p.361 lists enhancements available to some shamans), and they can reveal them to other persons if they have the Show Spirit shamanic ability and spend magic points to do so (RQG p.361)
Pierce Veil (Sorcery, RQG p.340) and Soul Sight (Rune Magic, RQG p.397) are non-shamanic magical vision techniques that can be used by non-shamans to perceive the Spirit World. There are also various techniques allowing a shaman and/or their fetch to become stealthy in the spirit world: see Conceal Fetch (a Black Fang technique) and Hide Soul.
Some spirits can manifest solid bodies: see Embodied Spirits in the Bestiary. The most obvious examples are elementals (which manifest within and animate their element), but nymphs such as dryads are also capable of creating material bodies when they choose to manifest.

Is a Discorporate adventurer just a spirit?

“A life form is composed of a corporeal body and a spirit. The separation of the spirit from the body is known as death.” (Bestiary p.164) As a Discorporate adventurer is not dead, it has a spirit that has not been separated from its body. So it is not “just” a spirit. That said, as per the discussion of Discorporation on p.326 of RQG: “A Discorporate adventurer is treated in all respects like an ordinary disembodied spirit.”

Is a ghost a spirit?

Yes. Ghosts are found in the Spirits chapter of the Bestiary (p.170, under Genius Loci: a category of spirits tied to specific places, like dryads and temple guardians).

Can you bind a spirit / ghost / discorporate adventurer into any old object?

You have to use a Binding Enchantment spell, spending permanent POW to specially prepare an object so it becomes capable of holding a bound spirit. See RQG p.249f. You can bind a Discorporate adventurer if it loses a spirit combat to a shaman or other corporeal entity, just like any other spirit: RQG p.326.

What’s the point of spirit trapping crystals when you can bind spirits into normal objects?

You don’t have to use the Binding Enchantment spell to make a spirit trapping crystal into an object capable of holding a bound spirit, as it can already do that.

Can a spirit bound into an object go discorporate at will?

Are you asking about a genius loci or a captive bound spirit?

• A captive bound spirit can’t do anything “at will” – that’s what being bound means. The binder of the spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses, and can use its magic points to fuel spells.
• A spirit that’s bound to a place or item (like a ghost) can wander around that place, but can’t leave it. Can a spirit bound to an item appear next to that item, or can it only interact with people who touch its binding object? That would depend on the spirit, and the story. You might find the guidelines on Wyters useful (RQG p.286): these are spirits bound into sacred objects.

Can a spirit / ghost / discorporate adventurer / shaman’s fetch look around a dungeon/ building/ ruin and scout out everything without any risks?

No. First of all, any spirit is vulnerable to things that can perceive, ensnare or damage spirits, so spirit scouting isn’t “without any risks.” Secondly, spirit perceptions aren’t the same as ours, so it can’t “scout out everything” – only those things that are visible to discorporate spirits. See RQG p.365 or the Bestiary p.164 for details of what discorporate spirits can sense.

How fast can a spirit move?

Usually elementally determined: see the table on p.165 of the Bestiary.

What’s an axis mundi?

A holy sanctuary about twenty yards across which shamans can create using a one-point Rune spell. An axis mundi attracts friendly spirits and makes it easier for ancestral spirits to manifest in the Mundane World. It’s also essentially the shamanic equivalent of a sanctified space within which rituals can be carried out, including shamanic initiations, ceremonies and heroquests. See RQG p.318.

Can a spirit possess an adventurer? How about a ghost? What happens to the adventurer’s spirit? Is it then a discorporate spirit?

Yes. Some spirits can initiate spirit combat (and all discorporate spirits can engage in spirit combat), and some of those have special abilities when they possess a defeated adventurer. Spirits can employ a range of interesting covert possession effects: check out the Disease, Passion, Shapechange and Slow Death spirit powers. Only spirits with the “Active Possession” spirit power can actively control a body they possess, using it to move, talk, eat, drink and fight. See RQG p.370, Dominant Possession and Covert Possession.
A defeated adventurer’s spirit is not normally expelled from its body – instead, it is trapped within its body beyond normal reach, communication or action. If a shaman can expel the possessing spirit, the trapped spirit can take back control: see Exorcism, RQG p.358. The shaman does not need to hunt for a lost or missing spirit – it was there all along.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Nick Brooke

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Here's my answers, including cross-references to the RQG core rules and the Bestiary. Apologies for any duplication.

No apologies necessary, it's great to see the various nuances of people's answers. Thanks for the precise references to the books too.... I wonder if a few of us could team up for a Spirit-related JC item that clears all this up, offers practical examples, adventure seeds, optional rules, varied interpretations of how to picture the Spirit World, etc.... "Everything You Ever Wanted To Know About Spirits But Were Afraid To Ask (Because Shamans Are Weird And Scary)"

Edited July 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Nick Brooke]

Not much for me to contribute, there, as pretty much everything I said is a straight quote from the core rules and Bestiary. I just straightened things out to answer a posted list of questions.

The more interesting questions (IMO) are how you include a shamanic adventurer in a group: you don’t want them to turn into the cyberpunk deck-runner who’s playing their own side-game while everyone gets on with the main story. I’ve found my own answer, which usually revolves around discorporate scouting before the main action to get a different perspective on what’s coming next. Not “accurate reconnaissance” - more an otherworldly “what’s really going on here” version of events. YGWV.

[Lordabdul]

24 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

you don’t want them to turn into the cyberpunk deck-runner who’s playing their own side-game while everyone gets on with the main story.

Yeah I've often drawn the parallel with the cyberpunk genre... Besides what you mentioned (using the shaman/netrunner for short investigation/scouting scenes), another technique is to make sure there's action going on at both level: the PCs are shooting incoming killer robots while the netrunner is trying to disable the AI that controls them. In RQ, the PCs are fighting, err, some possessed Lunar soldiers while the shaman is fighting the spirit that protects the magic item they need to break off the possession, or whatever.

[Nick Brooke]

Here’s another other fun thing I’ve started doing as part of every shamanic reconnaissance. The way it works in my head: one Rune Point for Discorporation feels like a reasonable spend to get past one problem. So when the adventurers are getting lost in the Colymar Wilds looking for Tarndisi’s Grove, the shaman drops one POW and I’ll tell them he can see a route through the mazy forest, he understands the pattern into which it’s grown, and he can perceive all of the Aldryami — all sorts of Aldryami! — who’ve been shadowing them all through the outer glades. 

And then I make the offer: “That’s not all. You reckon if you went a bit deeper, stayed a bit longer, you’d understand even more.” And the thing is, I truly mean it: maybe they’ve worked out how to get through one obstacle, but if he took the bait I would absolutely for sure give him something else that’d be even more useful — maybe in a broader, more abstract way, maybe with a totally different insight, maybe about the Dragon or the Boar or the Dryad? — and all I’m asking is for him to spend another point of Rune power and go a little bit deeper into the Spirit World...

Every time, so far, he’s flunked out. But one of these days I’ll get him. And then, with any luck, it’ll become addictive. And he’ll be wanting to push further and further out, spending longer and longer on the Spirit Plane, becoming less and less interested in or involved with the mundane world, as I fill his perceptions with beautiful abstractions ...

It’s just beautiful, it really is. Stuff like this is why I love RuneQuest.

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The way it works in my head: one Rune Point for Discorporation feels like a reasonable spend to get past one problem. So when the adventurers are getting lost in the Colymar Wilds looking for Tarndisi’s Grove, the shaman drops one POW and I’ll tell them he can see a route through the mazy forest, he understands the pattern into which it’s grown, and he can perceive all of the Aldryami — all sorts of Aldryami! — who’ve been shadowing them all through the outer glades. 

I like this. it engages their skill set while contributing to the overall party goal and creating more mysteries/hooks for the future.