A couple of basic rules questions

[Mugwump]

I'm new to the 7th ed rules and I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping someone can clear up.

1) Combat is an opposed roll test.  If the NPC that the player character is fighting has a Fighting skill of greater than 50%, does that mean that the player character needs to roll a "hard" success to succeed or do opposed rolls in combat work differently than non-combat opposed rolls?

 

2) Sanity loss when casting a spell.  Many of the spells listed have a SAN cost that seems like it will virtually guarantee a 5 point SAN hit and then an insanity check.  If the character fails their roll, does the spell still succeed?  Do they suffer a bout of madness and go running off into the night?  Seems like this will make most spells unusable by PCs.

 

 

 

[klecser]

1 hour ago, Mugwump said:

I'm new to the 7th ed rules and I have a couple of questions that I'm hoping someone can clear up.

1) Combat is an opposed roll test.  If the NPC that the player character is fighting has a Fighting skill of greater than 50%, does that mean that the player character needs to roll a "hard" success to succeed or do opposed rolls in combat work differently than non-combat opposed rolls?

The problem that I run into here is that Combat is specified to work in a certain way, and that is defined by "who gets a higher success," not by a "difficulty being set." My read on the rules is that while it is Keeper discretion to "set the difficulty to Hard" under opposition (page 189), that seems to only be under cases where the PC is just trying to beat a difficulty, not when it is an "opposed roll" where you are comparing a level of success.  Stealth skill level sets a difficulty level. But combat is level of success vs. level of success. I'm not under the impression that opponent skill level alters level of success opposed rolls in melee combat. Gurus? @Mike M @Paul Fricker

Additional consideration related to precision of language: I'm just pointing this out because you said "Combat is an opposed roll" and the game differentiates between two different "types" of combat that have different rules. Technically there is only one type of combat interaction that requires an "opposed roll:" "Fighting Back" or Dodge when faced with an attack from Fighting (Brawl) or Fighting (melee weapon) is an opposed roll. If the enemy is using a firearm, it is just their attack versus range difficulty. Even if a character Dives For Cover, that is not considered an "opposed roll." The Defender is just seeing if they can add a penalty die.

 

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2) Sanity loss when casting a spell.  Many of the spells listed have a SAN cost that seems like it will virtually guarantee a 5 point SAN hit and then an insanity check.  If the character fails their roll, does the spell still succeed?  Do they suffer a bout of madness and go running off into the night?  Seems like this will make most spells unusable by PCs.

Yep and Maybe and Yep.

Let's break them down:

2a) If they cast a spell, they "pay" the SAN cost as the spell happens. The effect happens and then they immediately resolve any SAN costs. So, assuming they meet the other conditions of the spell, it succeeds, whether it ultimately results in a bout of madness or not.

2b) If a spell costs 5 or more SAN to cast, the character makes an INT roll first. Only success on the INT roll produces a bout of madness. Note that not all spells have a heavy upfront SAN cost. They may have a low initial cost, but produce effects that proctor more sanity rolls. Summoning spells are good examples. 

2c) Yep. Or, really make a character think twice about whether this is really the time to attempt it. Or, heck, if it is even worth learning! Spells in CoC operate in a very different type of gaming head space than DND and other combat-focused games. I have players that know lots of spells "just in case," but they fear using them and making situations worse, and they often had to pay hefty costs to learn them. Their spells are a "toolbox" that they hope to never have to use.  

Another consideration: Many of the spells in the books are really mostly used by the antagonists who all have SAN scores of 0 or -. 

Edited December 28, 2020 by klecser

[Mike M]

Hi 

Combat is an opposed skill test - see page 90 of the Rulebook. Difficulty of the roll is set by each opponent (i.e their roll outcome).  As noted in the text, opposed rolls work differently to normal skill rolls (where an opponent's skill, such as Listen, can be used to set the difficulty of the roll). 

See page 103 for opposed rolls in combat for melee. 

Firearms do not use an opposed roll - see page 112 - where difficulty is set by range, and where other modifiers might apply (page 113). 

Spell casting (page 177) - first requires a casting roll (if this is failed, the spell does not work). SAN loss from casting spell - the spell is cast and the caster suffers SAN loss from the cost of the spell -  the spell takes effect and the caster deals with the resulting SAN loss from casting - this may trigger Temporary Insanity (if 5+ points, req. INT roll) or if 1/5 of SAN, then it automatically triggers Indefinite Insanity. The spell works either way, while the caster must deal with its cost. 

 

[Mugwump]

Thanks.  Combat mechanics are still not entirely clear to me.  On one hand, the rules say they are an opposed roll but on the other, they say each combatant is only rolling against their own skill.  The examples aren't helpful as nobody's combat skills are higher than 50% in any of the examples.  What I'd like to have clarified is whether or not the PC's combat skill is affected by the NPCs.  If the NPC has a skill greater than 50% but less than 90%, does this mean the PC's combat skill is effectively set to the HARD number or do they just roll against their normal combat stat?

 

 

[Mike M]

Each character in combat is rolling against their own skill (there is no difficulty level other than their Regular skill value) - if they succeed in the roll, their result (whether a Regular, Hard, Extreme success) is then compared to their opponent's roll - to see who achieved the best* success (and thereby won that combat turn).

Thus:

Sam attacks Bill. Sam has Brawl 80%. Sam has Brawl 60%. Sam has a higher DEX than Bill.

Round 1

Sam's turn - he acts first due to his higher DEX - rolls 65%, a Regular success. Bill reacts by fighting back, rolling 70%, a fail.  Sam wins and inflicts damage on Bill. 

Bill's turn (he has a lower DEX) now happens, and he attacks Sam. Sam elects to dodge (his Dodge is also 80% for simplicity's sake). Both roll. Bill gets 20% (a Hard Success). Sam gets 35% (also a Hard Success). As Sam is dodging, he only need to equal Bill's level of success to 'win' the combat - he does so, and dodges Bill's attack.

Each participant has taken a turn, so round 1 ends. 

Round 2

Sam's higher DEX means he continues to act before Bill. 

Sam attacks, Bill chooses to dodge this time (his Dodge is 60% for simplicity's sake). 

Sam gets 87% (failure). Bill gets 10% (an Extreme success). Bill clearly won the opposed roll, but Sam failed anyway, so nothing happens (we could describe Sam trying to land a blow on Bill, but Bill's ducking and weaving means he evades Sam's attempts).

Bill's turn - he attacks, getting 04% (Extreme success) versus Sam's fighting back result of 36% (Hard success). Extreme beats Hard, so Bill inflicts damage. 

 

- As you can see, the opponents' roll results are compared, with the level of success determining who won (depending on whether the defender is fighting back or dodging). If either fails their roll, their result can never beat their opponent (if both fail, then no clear outcome/winner is seen that turn, i.e. they both struggle to get the upper hand in that moment of combat and the fight continues). 

An NPC's skill - DOES NOT affect or modify the PC's skill or roll in combat situations. The NPC's roll result is compared to the PC's roll result (as in example above) as combat is an opposed roll situation.

*In Combat, the best success is fluid depending on whether the defender is fighting back (getting a better level of success than their attacker means the person fighting back wins) or dodging (equalling their attacker's level success means the dodging character wins)

[klecser]

In addressing the vocabulary question, Fighting (Brawl/Weapon) attacks are "opposed" in that you compare levels of success between attacker and defender. "Opposed" rolls work under a different set of rules in non-combat situations. The "50%" rule that you asked about in your original post are guidelines for non-combat interactions, not combat interactions.

[Grimmshade]

For further clarity, if I understand the rules properly, the 50% rule is only used when an NPC skill is opposed to the PC's skill, but not rolled. In opposed skills that are rolled, the 50% rule doesn't apply and the level of success is what determines who "wins." 

Lt. Gordon Persuade skill = 70%, Commissioner Loeb Psychology skill 55%

Gordon tries to persuade Loeb that he is actively hunting the Batman. Gordon needs a Hard success (35%) because Loeb's Psychology is above 50% and Gordon is the only one rolling dice.

If for some reason Loeb actively rolls opposition instead: Both roll their skill levels (70% vs 55%) and the better level of success succeeds. The 50% rule is not used because Loeb actively rolled his skill.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Grimmshade