Balance in fantasy gaming

[ghelmberger]

I'm planning to run a pretty much low fantasy game where magic is uncommon and challenging to learn. My baseline assumption is that nobody will start knowing magic, but that it will be possible to learn it later on. In other words, kind of the classic RQ setup, except that magic will be even more rare than that. In fact, I'm almost looking at a Harn-level of magical rarity.

On the other hand, never having run BRP, I wonder about the balance between magic using and non magic using characters. Would ALL the players want to learn magic just so as not to get left in the dust by the one(s) who did? And if so, what would be a good way to counterbalance that? I don't want all the characters to have magic, because I don't want magic to be that commonplace, but I also don't want one or two characters to suddenly become much more powerful than the others.

So any experiences, thoughts, or recommendations?

[RosenMcStern]

Use a magic system that requires studying the arcane arts deeply. The Basic Magic described in the core rules is ok, as all spells are separate skills and your character must devote all of his efforts to studying magic to be minimally effective. Avoid "quick and dirty" magic systems like the Spirit Magic described in the basic Magic supplement, although they seem a good way to give some magic cantrips to PCs, a character with a couple of magic items can quickly become both a super swordsman _and_ a good magician, which it the sort of unbalance that you wish to avoid.

[Charles Green]

It had been my experience that players develop a clear idea about what they want their character to be in character creation. If you say "no one can be a magic user" during creation, no one will creature a character that needs/wants to learn magic as play progresses.

If you want to place a limit on the number of magic users in the party, it is much better to so, from the beginning; "I want a low-magic setting, so only one of you can be a magic user", and creating characters with this in mind.

Otherwise, you will likely get no one who uses magic. If this is the goal, you may as well say, "No magic using characters" from the beginning. Otherwise, you'll have characters who can use magic, but only partially, or you'll have a no-magic party, since none of your players will want to pursue a power system that you've already said is not going to be a focus for the game.

Also, be aware that, without healing magic, combat becomes way more deadly than it would be otherwise. Think about the fact that this means losing a PC or two every time combat breaks out This won't happen every time, but a low-magic setting using BRP means that PCs need to be extraordinarily clever, or your PC death rate will be rather high.

I'm not saying healing magic needs to be widely available, only that without it, combat will cut through your characters, and slow down any survivors (since they'll need to heal, possibly for weeks at a time), thereby affecting the tone and pacing of your game.

If none of the opponents the PCs will face know magic, then this is not really an issue. If NPCs can know magic, players may think of this as "unfair", since the NPcs have tools the PCs don't.

[Thalaba]

I don't think there is much to be worried about, here. As Charles said, you should make it plain to the players that magic won't be something they start with, but that it is possible for individuals to learn it later. That will put the bug in the mind of the players who might want to learn it later to prepare for it now (making a scholar character, for instance). Be warned that if a PC makes 'getting magic' a goal, you will have to satisfy this goal at regular intervals in the campaign.

If, as Charles said, you simply tell them there is no magic except in myth, and then they later discover there is magic, there is a good chance the PCs won't want to learn it for themselves. They may, in fact, see it as a factor of evil and stamp it out when they see it. There's nothing wrong with that, of course. It's classic Sword and Sorcery. But you should decide now if you think 'some PCs should learn magic', or if 'you don't care whetner they do but they can if they want to'.

Like skill advancement, it's pretty easy to limit PC's access to magic in a game. In classic RQ access to magic was pretty easy thanks to the cult structure, and many people aspired to be rune lords and so on and kept getting more magically powerful. This, I think, is where Rosen is coming from in his comments. But you don't have to follow this model at all. You can keep magic rare.

If you use BRP MAGIC (or Basic Magic (BM) Sorcery) then each spell is a skill that will start low and increase slowly. Likely these skills won't increase any faster than the the combat skills of other PCs unless time is taken out of the campaign to specifically develop them. For this reason I don't think the magic user will outshine the others.

If you use BRP SORCERY (or BM Divine or Spirit Magic) then the availability of magic is entirely dependant of finding someone to teach or grant it to the PCs. And since you, the GM, controls the availability of magic teaching NPCs, you can limit the availability of spells very easily, only allowing PCs access to them when you think the time is right.

Contrary to Rosen, I wouldn't say that spirit magic is cheap and easy - at least there is no reason it needs to be. To get spirit magic, you have to find someone to take you into the spirit plane to teach it to you. This will likely be an exotic shaman, perhaps someone the PCs don't really want to deal with. He may strike bargains with them, forcing them to perform unsavoury or difficult tasks. Then, they will be taken to the spirit plane and have to defeat a spirit in spirit combat in order to learn the spell. This can be quite risky, and there is a chance of failure. Lastly, a single spirit magic spell probably isn't very powerful, so it won't overpower anyone. If you are playing with the fatigue rules, then wearing armour and weapons reduces the chance of casting magic, further limiting the usefulness of spirit magic. So yes, the obtaining of magic can be more troube than it's worth.

All of my players have gone the martial route, though they all have some spirit magic. They usually only cast magic when they aren't wearing armour or when they have a lot of time to perform a ceremony to increase their chance. They have only once taken the oportunity to learn magic from a source that wasn't their their tribal shaman, and they haven't had access to their tribal shaman since the beginning of the game.

Magic items are very rare in my game, and not super-powered. When the PCs do find magic items (and they do) I don't tell them they are magical or what they do without some experimentation. They actually have a bunch of magic items they never use because they are not aware they are anything special or afraid of what they might do. Furthermore, many of my magic items have to be attuned to the user by expending a POW - something my PCs are loath to do since they don't accrue POW very easily.

Lastly, I would reiterate what Charles said about healing. Without magic, you may want to have the Medicine skill, or some special healing herbs or some other means of healing. Or, you might give them CON+SIZ HP and run an episodic game where they have time to heal between episodes. Or, a rare healing magic item might do the trick.

Thalaba

[ghelmberger]

I'm definitely going to run with the Total Hit Points option, since I love the heroic flavor it gives. I love that with it the players will be qualitatively different from mooks, and wading through mooks goes far toward separating heroes from the common run of man. Also, one of the long-standing concerns I've had about BRP is the fragility of characters, and this rule greatly addresses that.

Another thing I was planning to do is to provide easy access to low-powered healing in the form of herbalism and a limited form of alchemy. It wouldn't necessarily be all that useful during combat, but it will get the PCs up and running much quicker between fights.

So I think limiting it to one magic-using character might be the way to go. The reason I wonder about it is that the book suggests that characters with powers are qualitatively better than characters without powers and ought to be started at a lower power level. Is this your experience as well?

[Thalaba]

It can easily get that way. Some of the powers in the books (like Sorcery, Psionics, and Super Powers) are abilities that are had over and above skills, and so it's recommended to give non-power using characters higher skill levels to compensate. Others (like Magic) really are skills, and if you award them in the same way as other skills then the balance will suggest itself.

But there are other factors that can help balance out powers that are maybe not so explicit in the book. These are things like having to make great personal sacrifices to get power, power users being socially ostracised and necessarily hidden, powers being only of limited use, powers being offset by weaknesses (as with Superpowers) or Geases (as with the RQ cult of Yelm (?)) etc. There are definitely ways to set up your game world to help keep powers in check.

Thalaba

[RosenMcStern]

Your powered character should start with less mundane skills. This initial disadvantage will be offset during play by the experience check advancement rules. It is not unusual for a magician to engage in melee in a BRP game, so he will end up with an experience roll exactly like the fighter. Eventually, he will reach a decent level of competence with weapons and skills, unlike in D&D where his character class limits him. In my experience, a magic user is the character who ends a game session with the most experience checks, because he can get one for all mundane skills plus the spells.

My usual take on this is to allow characters to use either step six (which is 200% more skill points) or gain powers at character creation. This way your magician is less skilled than the other PCs, but he has magic as a compensation.

[ghelmberger]

It can easily get that way. Some of the powers in the books (like Sorcery, Psionics, and Super Powers) are abilities that are had over and above skills, and so it's recommended to give non-power using characters higher skill levels to compensate. Others (like Magic) really are skills, and if you award them in the same way as other skills then the balance will suggest itself.

But there are other factors that can help balance out powers that are maybe not so explicit in the book. These are things like having to make great personal sacrifices to get power, power users being socially ostracised and necessarily hidden, powers being only of limited use, powers being offset by weaknesses (as with Superpowers) or Geases (as with the RQ cult of Yelm (?)) etc. There are definitely ways to set up your game world to help keep powers in check.

Thalaba

I was definitely planning to place social limitations on magic use. Magic is intended to be rare, spooky, ominous and dangerous, and therefore its practitioners would be viewed with suspicion at best. Also, having to undergo danger to get more magic is an excellent idea...

[ghelmberger]

Your powered character should start with less mundane skills. This initial disadvantage will be offset during play by the experience check advancement rules. It is not unusual for a magician to engage in melee in a BRP game, so he will end up with an experience roll exactly like the fighter. Eventually, he will reach a decent level of competence with weapons and skills, unlike in D&D where his character class limits him. In my experience, a magic user is the character who ends a game session with the most experience checks, because he can get one for all mundane skills plus the spells.

My usual take on this is to allow characters to use either step six (which is 200% more skill points) or gain powers at character creation. This way your magician is less skilled than the other PCs, but he has magic as a compensation.

That's a very good idea, and I think I'll use the same thing. I think that BRP's skill system is a real strength of the game, but in the case of some people having powers and others not, it can cause issues. I think your solution is an excellent one.

[samwise7]

Also, be aware that, without healing magic, combat becomes way more deadly than it would be otherwise. Think about the fact that this means losing a PC or two every time combat breaks out This won't happen every time, but a low-magic setting using BRP means that PCs need to be extraordinarily clever, or your PC death rate will be rather high.

Using the Total Hit Points method (or giving them even more than that, as I have done) I think would help reduce the death rate, in a low magic world.

Or you could use the Barbarians of Lemuria RPG idea on healing, which is after a fight, if given enough time to rest and drink a swig of wine, that everyone heals half of what they took in the fight.

Good luck with the game.

[Nightshade]

I still think you're going to have to manage things carefully not to get a high lethality rate; even with Total Hit Points, sooner or later a critical impale can finish you off in one. Depending on the kinds of armor available, it can be even easier.

The lack of healing seems like it could make this considerably worse, not only tactically, but strategically if you don't have very widely scattered combats.

Edited November 16, 2009 by Nightshade

[RosenMcStern]

Which reminds me of another important detail, and this time it is something new that Jason did manage to introduce in the rules. You can use Fate Points to both avoid random casualties and give non-powered characters a compensation for their lack of magic (powered characters have less Fate because they use it as Power Points).

These metagaming elements are scorned by many BRP "purists", but they actually add to the game. You can, and will, still die if you do something stupid, as Fate Points will soon run out if you go challenge the Red Dragon with a shorsword, but a critical or a fumble can be rerolled if you need.

[ghelmberger]

I really do like the idea of Fate Points (and in my case using Allegiance points to be able to sway things as well) because it gives the players more things that can actively and strategically influence the game, and those kinds of things are pretty much inherently fun, not to mention they add to survivability.

[Nightshade]

Yeah, I'd forgotten Fate points in my discussion; they should at least help a little (though with the numbers as-is, I'm not sure they'll entirely cover the problem).

[frogspawner]

Recovery from injuries can be sped-up by generous use of Medicine skill, and maybe Knowledge(Herbs) - if you use MERP/Rolemaster-style healing herbs. They could even get around the Lethality problem too, if you allow some of the more high-powered ("life-keeping/-giving") ones...

If the non-mage characters get bored, and don't want to be herbalists, you could introduce some fancy ki-type abilities for them, perhaps related to Martial Arts... which obviously wouldn't be taught to dodgy sorceror characters.

[Nightshade]

If the non-mage characters get bored, and don't want to be herbalists, you could introduce some fancy ki-type abilities for them, perhaps related to Martial Arts... which obviously wouldn't be taught to dodgy sorceror characters.

Of course ki abilities are just magic under another name.

[TRose]

One thing you might want to look at if you want to keep magic both rare and balanced is look at Mongoose RQ rune magic since its free to download now I understand. Since you need the right rune to cast the right spell and the Gm can control which spells are out there by limiting what runes the players have.

[frogspawner]

Of course ki abilities are just magic under another name.

True. 'Special combat techniques' then? (I just didn't like to call them 'Feats'... ) Whatever you call them, such things could help the mage/non-mage balance.

[ghelmberger]

True. 'Special combat techniques' then? (I just didn't like to call them 'Feats'... ) Whatever you call them, such things could help the mage/non-mage balance.

That's a good point...hmmmm. I'm coming from a Hero System background and I know exactly how to do those sorts of things in Hero, but how does one construct them in BRP? And how does one have PCs "pay" for them? In Hero it's easy because you buy things out of accrued experience points, but BRP operates in an entirely different fashion. So is it all handled in the play -- making them hard to learn and maybe requiring a quest, or what have you?

[ghelmberger]

One thing you might want to look at if you want to keep magic both rare and balanced is look at Mongoose RQ rune magic since its free to download now I understand. Since you need the right rune to cast the right spell and the Gm can control which spells are out there by limiting what runes the players have.

That's pretty much the classic RQ way of approaching it though, right?

[Charles Green]

And how does one have PCs "pay" for them? In Hero it's easy because you buy things out of accrued experience points, but BRP operates in an entirely different fashion. So is it all handled in the play -- making them hard to learn and maybe requiring a quest, or what have you?

There are few hard-and-fast ways to do this. MRQ has them cost a certain number of Hero Points, as well as requiring certain characteristics and skill levels.

Since such a thing does not exist in BRP, you might have characters need to meet certain requirements, and then forgo a certain number of experience checks in order to "pay" for them.

Conversely, you might say that, at certain points in the campaign, everyone gets to select one, so that no character gets a bonus that no one else does.

[Jarulf]

One option to get special combat techniques might be to tie them to Allegiance. As gifts from the Divine or the opportunity to learn them from your guild, faction or House perhaps. In a way similar the Gifts and Geases of RQ II and III.

Acquiring them might also put some restraints on the character, depending on how you want to run it.

[ghelmberger]

There are few hard-and-fast ways to do this. MRQ has them cost a certain number of Hero Points, as well as requiring certain characteristics and skill levels.

Since such a thing does not exist in BRP, you might have characters need to meet certain requirements, and then forgo a certain number of experience checks in order to "pay" for them.

Conversely, you might say that, at certain points in the campaign, everyone gets to select one, so that no character gets a bonus that no one else does.

Actually, foregoing X improvement rolls had occurred to me as a way of controlling the expansion of powers -- say, for every spell you ticked, you had to forego two non-spell ticks. This looks like it might not be necessary if spells are more or less self-balancing against other skills, especially if Fate Points are factored in.

[ghelmberger]

One option to get special combat techniques might be to tie them to Allegiance. As gifts from the Divine or the opportunity to learn them from your guild, faction or House perhaps. In a way similar the Gifts and Geases of RQ II and III.

Acquiring them might also put some restraints on the character, depending on how you want to run it.

I am looking at adapting the Allegiance system to non-divine applications, so I could easily say that one social group can teach X, and another can teach Y. That does dovetail nicely with my idea that each one gives a different benefit.

[frogspawner]

...but how does one construct them in BRP? And how does one have PCs "pay" for them?

For me, Questing for such 'combat techniques' would make them seem too much like magic (which, though very RuneQuesty, we're trying to avoid, right?).

I give one per 10% Martial Arts skill - but I'm mean, and only let MA increase 1% per time. And what are they? That Other Game's Feats translated and crudely bolted-on, of course...