a thought about hero "spell" and dismiss

[French Desperate WindChild]

I just think about this question. We don't have rules for the moment but I liked what was showed in the white bull campaign.

 

we know that characters becoming "hero" may get the equivalent of divine spell  but not from a god, from themselves.

and this morning I asked myself about "If I get a sword trance hero spell - or any personal buff hero spell -; could it be dismiss by a spell ?"

then I have not a clear idea:

 

1) Of course dismiss spell may dispel a hero spell: everything is magic, so can be dispelled.

2) Of course not, that is the hero own nature: you cannot break it, in the same way you cannot break a shaman ability

3) Of course yes but only if the dismiss spell is at the "same level" aka you must have a dispell magic hero spell to succeed it (cleary I dislike this option. that is something like: you are a saiyan then a super saiyan then a super saiyan 2, etc...)

 

just some thought, by anticipation 🙂

 

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

"If I get a sword trance hero spell - or any personal buff hero spell -; could it be dismiss by a spell ?"

Yes, why not?

But it might depend on the spell/ability.  If what you've gained is like a Rune spell, then it can be disspelled like any other temporal spell.  (If it's an Instant spell, then no point to disspelling it).  If what you've gained is more a shamanic ability, then perhaps not.

[French Desperate WindChild]

41 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, why not?

But it might depend on the spell/ability.  If what you've gained is like a Rune spell, then it can be disspelled like any other temporal spell.  (If it's an Instant spell, then no point to disspelling it).  If what you've gained is more a shamanic ability, then perhaps not.

I haven't the answer; only the question

I m pretty sure my english will be  not enough to explain it correctly, but I try 😕

 

my process starts with :

 a uroxi uses "berserk" from Storm Bull

someone dispells it.

 

 What does happen in (gloranthan) reality ?

- Does the dispell spell break the link between the god and the uroxi ? aka the chanel is over, then the spell is over

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of the berserk spell, because it is on "the surface" of the uroxi. metaphor: berserk is just a "god paint" on the uroxi body and dispell is a kind of pressure washer

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of the berserk spell, because berserk is "in" the uroxi. metaphor: berserk is like a temporary change of dna in cells) and dispell is a kind of "reverse" process.

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of berserk spell, because any spell is just effect of runes

[French Desperate WindChild]

ok I don't know why, but it send my post so I continue

 

the 2 lasts options (dna & runes) could allow a dispell spell to cancel a hero spell (I fully agree if it is a permanent effect, like shaman hability it is something else)

but the 2 first options are different: As a hero, you have not a god as 3rd party. You are the source of your power

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

and this morning I asked myself about "If I get a sword trance hero spell - or any personal buff hero spell -; could it be dismiss by a spell ?"

This what separates those who are and aren't heroes. I treat Hero boons like shamanic abilities. They can't be dispelled, but they could be neutralised by another hero. As a hero of Lodril, if I fire my Lava Fingers at a Heler hero who fire back Fingers of Water, what happens? Exactly what happens in every film. The two beams meet in the middle with a huge explosion. The elemental rune affinities chart on the adventurer sheet doesn't come into play as neither interact.

So could a sufficiently large dismiss / dispel / neutralize work. Yes, maybe at double the strength. So Fingers of Fire is like a 3pt rune spell, so perhaps it takes 6pts of dismiss or 12 pts of dispel to stop it. Then Fingers of Fire just starts again next round...

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What does happen in (gloranthan) reality ?

- Does the dispell spell break the link between the god and the uroxi ? aka the chanel is over, then the spell is over

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of the berserk spell, because it is on "the surface" of the uroxi. metaphor: berserk is just a "god paint" on the uroxi body and dispell is a kind of pressure washer

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of the berserk spell, because berserk is "in" the uroxi. metaphor: berserk is like a temporary change of dna in cells) and dispell is a kind of "reverse" process.

- Does the dispell spell cancel the effect of berserk spell, because any spell is just effect of runes

A lot of this depends on how you envision theistic magic in your Glorantha (i.e. YGWV).

Generally, I think of theistic magic as both a channeling of the deity through you (i.e. you are a vessel for your god to manifest in this world) and an emulation of your deity by your actions (i.e. your embodying of the actions of your god brings you closer to your god).  Both approaches bring the mundane world closer to the Gods World at that place.

With those concepts in mind, a Dispel spell would do the following: 1) takes you out of your embodiment of your god (i.e. takes the god's "mask" off of you); 2) breaks the channeling of the divine into this world; and 3) reestablishes the mundane world ("pushing back" the intrusion of the divine).

Now, in-world, someone viewing the Dispel might have one of several views:

1) A sorcerer would likely say that the Dispel worked because the gods are just emanations of the Runes, as is their magic, so the Dispel cancelled or dismissed the power of those Runes manifested in the individual.

2) A theist priest would likely say that the Dispel worked because their god knew how to defeat the Storm Bull, yoking him, and taking away his raging breath.

3) A shaman would likely say that the Dispel worked because the Berserker was temporarily possessed by the spirit of the Storm Bull, and that spirit was driven back into the Spirit World.

From a game perspective, I think all are valid, and none of them really matter in play.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

A lot of this depends on how you envision theistic magic in your Glorantha (i.e. YGWV).

Generally, I think of theistic magic as both a channeling of the deity through you (i.e. you are a vessel for your god to manifest in this world) and an emulation of your deity by your actions (i.e. your embodying of the actions of your god brings you closer to your god).  Both approaches bring the mundane world closer to the Gods World at that place.

With those concepts in mind, a Dispel spell would do the following: 1) takes you out of your embodiment of your god (i.e. takes the god's "mask" off of you); 2) breaks the channeling of the divine into this world; and 3) reestablishes the mundane world ("pushing back" the intrusion of the divine).

Now, in-world, someone viewing the Dispel might have one of several views:

1) A sorcerer would likely say that the Dispel worked because the gods are just emanations of the Runes, as is their magic, so the Dispel cancelled or dismissed the power of those Runes manifested in the individual.

2) A theist priest would likely say that the Dispel worked because their god knew how to defeat the Storm Bull, yoking him, and taking away his raging breath.

3) A shaman would likely say that the Dispel worked because the Berserker was temporarily possessed by the spirit of the Storm Bull, and that spirit was driven back into the Spirit World.

From a game perspective, I think all are valid, and none of them really matter in play.

 

yes that is my idea too.

So my question, when there is no god, but hero spell (so the character herself is the "source"), is there any channel (only between 2 planes, but not between 2 people - character + god ) which can be dispel (in this case, I like @David Scott option) or no channel at all (the spell is from the character , like her characteristics, skills, etc...), and you cannot dispell it, but as you can  "reduce" characterisitc or skill, you may use the same spell, or another one, to "reduce hero power"

Edited May 22, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

So my question, when there is no god, but hero spell (so the character herself is the "source"), is there any channel (only between 2 planes, but not between 2 people - character + god ) which can be dispel (in this case, I like @David Scott option) or no channel at all (the spell is from the character , like her charactirstics, skills, etc..., and you cannot dispell it, but you can "reduce" characterisitc or skill, so maybe the same spell, or another one, "reduce hero power")

Ok, so in terms of Heroic abilities, it depends on whether it is a spell or power that you are channeling, or one that you have made "part of yourself".  Let's say you gained the spell Cloud Call.  It's a temporal spell, but maybe you won it gambling with a storm god, or you stripped away the fleecy cloak of a storm god, etc.  So, it's your power now and you've drawing upon your connection with the Otherworld to use it.  In this case, it functions like a Rune spell, and yes it should be able to be disspelled.

But if during your Heroquest you stole the Eye of Rigsdal and replaced one of your own eyes with it, then it should function similar to a shamanic boon.  And in that case, I'd say if it is invoked then probably not disspelled.

[French Desperate WindChild]

yes that is the point. So any "temporary" XXX should be seen as "spell" (and could be dismissed, why not with more intensity than a rune spell, like Scotty said) and any "permanent" XXX should be seen as "hability"

It makes sense. The point then is what is the price (POW sacrifice) to obtain a permanent XXX . And is there a rule to define if this effect is a spell or an hability (or could be an effect be sometimes a spell, sometimes an hability.

For example, you gambled with a storm god and you get cloud call as heroic spell. But... what if you destroy the storm god, drunk is blood and obtain cloud call. Is it now an hability (maybe fuelled with magic point for the use) or because the effect is cloud call, that must be a spell ?

 

edit and note : my questions are more what I hope to find in the rules when the rules will be ready. I don't need today, and I m able to create my own (my answer would be "depending on the challenge and the cost it is a spell or a habitity) . But in all case it is interesting to know how others would manage it

Edited May 23, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[PhilHibbs]

Maybe "Dispel Ward" is one of the heroic ability spells, allowing you to stack an extra HSP onto another heroic spell to make it non-dispellable.

Another possibility would be one that punches through (or subtly bypasses) all magical defences.

You could call them "Immovable" and "irresistible".

Edited May 23, 2021 by PhilHibbs