Strike Ranks?

[Daxos232]

When I took a look at Strike Ranks in the BRP book it was kind of confusing. Is it pretty much just BRP's version of Combat Actions in Mongoose's Runequest? If not, whats the difference. IIRC I don't think the BRP book explained Strike Ranks with spellcasting and how they would work.

I have heard a little bit of how Classic Fantasy's system works, is it pretty much the same as RQ combat actions and BRP's Strike Ranks?

My group plays medieval fantasy, and we are having a hard time deciding upon a combat system to use. We do not like mongoose RQ's combat actions.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Daxos232

[NickMiddleton]

Okay, I remember looking at the Strike Ranks description in the BRP book and it was complicated. I haven't really looked at it since to try and figure it out, but it sounds like it may be the best system for combat in my games, but I don't think the book explains it well but I'm gonna take another look at it when I can.

Until then I wanted to ask how Strike Ranks work in BRP. Is there an explanation as to how spells work in that system?

Yes - it's in the section describing the Strike Rank system that starts in the box out on page 199 - I think the relevant bit about powers is on page 200.

My group plays a pretty traditional fantasy setting with bows, swords, and spells. I'm just trying to find a balanced,simple system and we've been having a hard time coming up with a final decision. We did not like Mongoose Runequests Combat Actions, because it was annoying keeping track of whose still got combat actions.

I like the Strike Rank system - it adds a degree of extra detail but in many games I've found it worthwhile. The original version (in Chaosium's first two editions of RuneQuest) was slightly different and more narrowly focused on sequencing combat between engaged opponents. ElfQuest and RuneQuest III revised the system and expanded its remit to sequencing all actions in combat rounds, which lead to a few oddities. And the re-write in BRP has tweaked a couple of things further... I also thought (during the play test and subsequently) that "Combat Actions" in MRQ were a mistake, and I still think that .

Have a read through of the Strike Rank rules, maybe try a few mock combats and post any questions here - there are plenty of us with lots of experience with the previous incarnations of Strike Ranks so we should be able to help!

Cheers,

Nick

[Foen]

Just as an aside (and sorry if I cause any confusion) the Superworld rules included a strike-rank system (action ranks) which has some similar ideas but is implemented quite differently. I'm not sure whether it pre-dated the RQ version or not.

Foen

[NickMiddleton]

Just as an aside (and sorry if I cause any confusion) the Superworld rules included a strike-rank system (action ranks) which has some similar ideas but is implemented quite differently. I'm not sure whether it pre-dated the RQ version or not.

Interesting - RQI & II are seventies games, Chaosium did a lot of experimenting in the early eighties, which is when Worlds of Wonder and subsequently the standalone Superworld appeared (along with Call of Cthulhu, Stormbringer, ElfQuest, Ringworld and of course RQIII). ElfQuest and RQIII's take on SR are essentially identical. Ringworld uses an action point system IIRC (there's a similar system in Niall Shapero's Other Suns), where as CoC and SB used differing variants of DEX rank system...

I just picked up a copy of Superworld from eBay - I'll be interested to see how the details of the system differ from the other BRP games I know better.

Cheers,

Nick

[Foen]

Essentially Superworld has actors taking turns based on decreasing DEX order, but you can act again on DEX-10 and then DEX-20 and so on. With Super abilities, this means characters get multiple actions per round. IIRC, this is then modified for powers etc, but it has been a while since I last looked. Modern BRP uses a basis which tends towards a reciprocal of that approach. The impact is similar, but you cannot map easily between one and another.

DEX rank and options to act on DEX-5 etc are similar, but I don't recall there being a penalty for multiple actions in Superworld.

[threedeesix]

I have heard a little bit of how Classic Fantasy's system works, is it pretty much the same as RQ combat actions and BRP's Strike Ranks?

My group plays medieval fantasy, and we are having a hard time deciding upon a combat system to use. We do not like mongoose RQ's combat actions.

Sorry Daxos, I didn't catch this question until just now. I really don't know how mongoose RQ's combat actions work as I have not read it in some time. I can tell you that I based it on the BRP core book which pretty much laid the ground work for actions already. For example, in general you can perform an action every 5 DEX ranks (depending on the action) in BRP. It just made sense to me then to divide DEX by 5 and say you have that many actions that can be performed.

I then took all the actions mentioned in BRP and where it said how many DEX ranks it took to perform, just noted how many actions that would be. Finally, I created several other actions to further augment the system using them as a guide.

If you didn't like the Mongoose RQ action system, this may not be your cup of tea either, for while I never even looked at their system when designing mine, I don't know how different they could really be. After all, both have you "spending" actions.

Rod

[Daxos232]

Okay, I want to thank you all for helping me try to figure this out. It's just been giving me a big headache because I don't like RQ's Combat Actions, and I don't understand either of BRP's systems. I first got the BRP book months ago, and wanted to play a game with my group. Problem was I couldn't understand BRP's combat, and that includes the basic combat system, and the strike ranks system. So I ordered Mongoose RQ and I could understand combat actions. After we played though, it was annoying keeping track of all those, what we called em, "Little turns in a Big turn". So I went to everyone just getting one combat action, like D&D, or so I thought.

We had a new player join us and he played D&D alot, he explained Movement, minor, and major actions. That sounded like something I might use. He mentioned this becuase with the one combat action per turn thing I did, one of my friends could shoot his bow, then he had to take a turn to reload and then he could shoot again, and everyone got to take their one turn in between like normal.

Friend's 1st Turn: shoot bow

Everyone else takes their turn. Round ends.

Friend's 2nd Turn: reload

Everyone else takes their turns. Round ends

Friend's 3rd Turn: shoot bow again.

We discussed this and thought a better system could be devised. With what ThreeDeeSix mentioned about Classsic Fantasy's system, in a previous post, I thought up this system in my head and have not had an opportunity to test this, but I like the initial idea and it could go somewhere.

Total Dexterity

0-5 1 action

6-10 2 actions

11-15 3 actions

16-21 4 actions

If your character has a total Dexterity of 14, then he has 3 actions. When it is his turn he can move,melee/range attack, reload his weapon, cast a spell, etc for a total of 3 things. Each of those things costs an action point. When it is his turn he takes all those actions, AT OUNCE. So he uses up all his actions, and then it goes to the next person in turn order, and that person does ALL HIS ACTIONS, and then it goes to the next, and so on, and then when we have gone around the table OUNCE, thats the end of that Round or whole turn or whatever you wanna call it. My group did not like the idea that you hadto use a combat action to block, and if you had none left, you were helpless. So instead, in this system I described above, you could still parry normally after using up all your actions, when someone else is taking their turn. Their would still be some things I have to work out in this system.

For instance a melee fighter is next to his opponent. Can he use all his actions to make 2,3, or 4 attacks, depending on the number of actions he has, at one guy?

I am throwing this out there because I don't understand either of BRP's systems. That includes the basic combat and Strike Ranks System. The combat example they give on page 210, is not helpful, because its not combat, its a guy who just gets attacked repeatedly without striking back at his pursuers. I looked on the BRP wiki and the combat example their is pretty much RQ combat actions. I would really appreciate a clear example, for both BRP's basic combat rules and the Strike Ranks system, involving melee,ranged weapons, and spells, so I can see how they work. I'm sorry I keep bugging everyone about this, and I appreciate all the help I have recieved.

[threedeesix]

Total Dexterity

0-5 1 action

6-10 2 actions

11-15 3 actions

16-21 4 actions

Thats pretty much the Classic Fantasy system. The only difference would be...

16-20 4 actions

21-25 5 actions

etc.

Pretty close

If your character has a total Dexterity of 14, then he has 3 actions. When it is his turn he can move,melee/range attack, reload his weapon, cast a spell, etc for a total of 3 things. Each of those things costs an action point. When it is his turn he takes all those actions, AT OUNCE. So he uses up all his actions, and then it goes to the next person in turn order, and that person does ALL HIS ACTIONS, and then it goes to the next, and so on, and then when we have gone around the table OUNCE, that's the end of that Round or whole turn or whatever you wanna call it.

This is Classic Fantasy pretty much verbatim.

My group did not like the idea that you had to use a combat action to block, and if you had none left, you were helpless. So instead, in this system I described above, you could still parry normally after using up all your actions, when someone else is taking their turn. Their would still be some things I have to work out in this system.

It doesn't work like that in BRP anyway. You can always parry or dodge. It's just if you do it a second time it's at -30%, a third would be at -60%, etc. It doesn't use any actions/DEX ranks.

For instance a melee fighter is next to his opponent. Can he use all his actions to make 2,3, or 4 attacks, depending on the number of actions he has, at one guy?

Not in core BRP. You can make 1 attack. However, Classic Fantasy uses the optional rule from BRP where when you get to 100% you can make 2 attacks, at 125% it would be 3 attacks, etc. You do have to divide your skill by the number of attacks however. So if you were at 120% and decided to attack two guys, both attacks would be at 60%.

I am throwing this out there because I don't understand either of BRP's systems. That includes the basic combat and Strike Ranks System. The combat example they give on page 210, is not helpful, because its not combat, its a guy who just gets attacked repeatedly without striking back at his pursuers. I looked on the BRP wiki and the combat example their is pretty much RQ combat actions. I would really appreciate a clear example, for both BRP's basic combat rules and the Strike Ranks system, involving melee,ranged weapons, and spells, so I can see how they work. I'm sorry I keep bugging everyone about this, and I appreciate all the help I have recieved.

This is no problem and I hope we can help you to better understand the various systems so you can better decide on the one best for your group. We'll see if someone can step up to the plate and maybe write a small combat example for you. I'll be honest, I don't really have the time right now. But if nothing has been done before the end of the weekend I'll at least try to explain the basic BRP system in an example. I don't usually use the SR system so would have to re-read the whole thing before being able to help. I'm obviously more interested in the Classic Fantasy system at the moment.

Rod

Edited March 20, 2010 by threedeesix

[Thalaba]

Speaking to Strike Ranks:

BRP strike ranks are very different from an initiative system, such as what D&D has. With an initiative system, you basically determine who goes first and then run through everybody's actions one by one until every one has gone, and then you start the round again. Each person's actions are completed all at once on their turn.

The strike rank system instead divided the round up into ten segments. There are no player 'turns'. Each action that a player can perform starts on a specific strike rank and lasts for 1 or more strike ranks. When the action starts and how long it takes depends on what the action is.

The time it takes for a PC to perform an action depends on their dex, their size, and other things factor in like weapon length, spell power, and how far they move.

If everybody performs the same action each round, then 'who goes when' is always the same. But someone can change which strike rank they act on by changing their activity (such as chosing a weapon with better reach, or moving, or casting a spell instead of stabbing), and because of this it becomes quite a tactical game.

What's more, each round evolves organically. In D&D 3.5 for instance (initiative system), let's say Burly Bob is facing the Black Knight (BK) on the field of battle and they are 10M apart. Either Bob will go first and run toward the BK, expending his whole turn running and then he will wait while the BK tries to hit him on the BK's turn. Or, if the BK has initiative, the BK will go first and charge down Bob. Bob can't run away, because it's not his turn.

But in RQ both would start moving early in the round (say on strike rank 3). If they run towards each other, they will meet somewhere in the middle, striking each other about 2 strike ranks later (on 5). The Black Knight would strike first (his long spear is the longer weapon) and Bob would strike 2 two strike ranks later with his short sword.

On the other hand, bob could choose to run away. He might be able to run to the nearest rock and hide behind it before the BK can reach him. Or he might set a spear vs. the charge of the BK, in which case Bob would go first with his spear before the BK could get him with the lance. Or he could cast a spell that might go off before BK reaches his position. Each of these choices might have Bob going at a different time in the round.

So, basically, the GM calls out the strike ranks in a round from 1 to 10. Each player decides their action and when the right strike rank is called out, they say their action.

A single character might have all of these options (and more) in a round:

Start moving on SR2 (this action lasts until the PC stops moving)

Start casting a spell on SR2 (this action lasts as many MP are in the spell)

Shoot an arrow on SR2

Attack with a long spear on SR5

Attack with a broadsword on SR6

Attack with a dagger on SR7

If they shot an arrow on SR2, they can shoot a second on SR7

If two opponents both attack on the same strike rank, then the attacks are considered simultaneous.

It probably sounds a bit complicated at first, but like anything once you play through it a few times it becomes intuitive. It's more complicated than an initiative system, but it also simulates battle more realistically - and that's the trade-off.

The MRQ1 'strike ranks', by the way, are NOT the same as BRP strike ranks - in effect that is an initiative system. I'm not sure about MRQ2.

Hope that helps, but feel free to ask more questions.

[Daxos232]

Okay, now I am starting to get a bit of the picture. Thank you Thalaba for that summary of how BRP strike ranks work. It does sound a little complicated like you said but I think my group could try it. Explaining it to them might be a little difficult though, lol. I can see what you meant by it being more difficult, but giving more realism and choice.

Does this system work well with large groups of combatants, like say 10 to 15 characters? And what would you recommend for handling fantasy creatures and monsters? I also noticed that BRP dones't say anything about mounts for the Strike Rank system. I would still appreciate anyone contributing an example.

When you gave that example from Classic Fanatasy, ThreeDeeSix, I liked what you mentioned and I just tried to think up a system based off that. I don't know if what I described in my last post works, I would still have to balance it. Those melee fighters will definitely get that -30% penalty when blocking more than one attack, but I think I would have to make it so that you only took the penalty if you were attacked by a second (or more) person's set of actions, not the first guys first attack, then his second, and his third and so on.

I also forgot about my thread that I started titled Minor Actions, Major Actions, that you replied to. I read your post and what you said was very helpful. I actually want to get my hands on a copy of Classic Fantasy, but I want to get the physical book, not the PDF.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Daxos232

[threedeesix]

Those melee fighters will definitely get that -30% penalty when blocking more than one attack, but I think I would have to make it so that you only took the penalty if you were attacked by a second (or more) person's set of actions, not the first guys first attack, then his second, and his third and so on.

That could be an ok house rule, but remember that it works both ways. If you have a powerful fighter that can make 3 attacks in one round, he could whittle down the opponents defenses, with him first rolling full Parry, then Parry at -30, then Parry at -60%. If the target had a 95% Parry, you could be there all day hoping for him to fail that defense roll. "I hit him, he dodged, I hit him, he dodged, I hit him, he dodged". The way it works now favors the high skilled fighter as he WILL eventually beat him down.

I also forgot about my thread that I started titled Minor Actions, Major Actions, that you replied to. I read your post and what you said was very helpful. I actually want to get my hands on a copy of Classic Fantasy, but I want to get the physical book, not the PDF.

Check your private messages up at the top of the screen under notifications.

Rod

[pulpcitizen]

In developing the monograph I am working on we as a group switched over to Strike Ranks, and the view was that for all players and for me as GM we find the system is much more satisfying for simulating the kind of action 'feel' for the game at hand.

They take a little getting used to but not too long in our experience thankfully, and allow for some nice flexibility of action also (using smaller amounts of power to trade for speed).

[Thalaba]

Okay, now I am starting to get a bit of the picture. Thank you Thalaba for that summary of how BRP strike ranks work. It does sound a little complicated like you said but I think my group could try it. Explaining it to them might be a little difficult though, lol. I can see what you meant by it being more difficult, but giving more realism and choice.

Maybe try it by yourself or with one other person first, then feel free to ask us questions afterward. Looking at the section in the BRP book, I see they've changed things from RQ3, so if you find there's something you don't like about those rules, someone can give you a different way of doing it.

Does this system work well with large groups of combatants, like say 10 to 15 characters? And what would you recommend for handling fantasy creatures and monsters?

Sure, although it will get complicated with 10-15 characters if they are fighting each other because a bunch of them will end up doing things simultaneously. With 10-15 NPCs, though, it's a piece of cake. I ran a combat recently with 5 PCs, 2 player NPCs, one main villain, and 50 henchmen. All the henchmen had the same stats, so it wasn't too hard to keep track of them.

I also noticed that BRP dones't say anything about mounts for the Strike Rank system.

It looks like that got left out. Here's a summary from our houserules:

Time to Perform Actions:

Dislodging an impaling weapon: 3 SR

Stringing a bow 1 MR

Drawing/Sheathing a weapon 3 SR

Carefully dropping an item 1 SR

Carelessly dropping an item 0 SR

Bracing for knockback 3 SR

Mounting/Dismounting a steed: 3 SR

Leaping Mount/Dismount: 1 SR

I would still appreciate anyone contributing an example.

If I can find the time for it, I may well do that.

[Daxos232]

Time to Perform Actions:

Dislodging an impaling weapon: 3 SR

Stringing a bow 1 MR

Drawing/Sheathing a weapon 3 SR

Carefully dropping an item 1 SR

Carelessly dropping an item 0 SR

Bracing for knockback 3 SR

Mounting/Dismounting a steed: 3 SR

Leaping Mount/Dismount: 1 SR

That will be very useful, thank you. I'm going to try to do a simple Strike Ranks exercise with a friend to see how it works. Right now we are discussing whether to use Strike Ranks or ThreeDeeSix's combat actions from Classic Fantasy. Both have their pros and cons. I like the Strike Ranks ability to let faster characters have more attacks in a round, while the simplicity of CF's actions makes it really easy to just pick up and go with little confusion. It could go either way. I would still appreciate any examples when you have the time. If spell casting could be included it would help.

One of the ideas we were throwing around for Classic Fantasy's system was to allow multiple attacks in a round. The original CF rules don't allow it but we thought if a character wants to make more than 1 attack or spell in a round then they have to divide their attacking skill by 2 for 2 attacks, 3 for 3 attacks, and so forth. That way a player wouldn't have to have above 100% to make multiple attacks, and so far as we can tell its not overpowered but we have yet to test it.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Daxos232