Simplifying Gloranthan magic

[Richard S.]

50 minutes ago, Yazurkial said:

Ian:

Are you trying to reimpose the three (and a half?) worlds view as well? It's not so relevant for beginning players, obviously. But the HQ mechanic lends itself to the higher-level-player complexity that Greg talked about in Arcane Lore. Even at low levels, the treatment of great spirits as gods in RQG rubs me wrong. But it works OK as a mechanic at low levels. I haven't tried it at high levels for an animist yet.

I think the view since the guide has been that the difference between great spirits and gods is more semantics than anything. An entity might appear differently depending on whether you encounter them in the spirit world or on the hero plane (or are invoking them in sorcery), but that doesn't mean that it's two separate entities, or that one of those environments is "unnatural" for it. Arcane Lore is a good source of ideas, but it's very much non-canonical.

[Yazurkial]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

I think the view since the guide has been that the difference between great spirits and gods is more semantics than anything. An entity might appear differently depending on whether you encounter them in the spirit world or on the hero plane (or are invoking them in sorcery), but that doesn't mean that it's two separate entities, or that one of those environments is "unnatural" for it. Arcane Lore is a good source of ideas, but it's very much non-canonical.

It kind of depends on what you consider canon. All of the Hero Wars line of books took the view that multiple worlds mashed together and are somewhat mixed and somewhat separate. That doesn't matter much at all for lower-level players. But if that's really how the universe is, then it will matter if you play a hero (or a superhero, or immortal, or transcendent master, or an aspirant to apotheosis, or maybe dragonnewt). To my mind, Arkat was a PC.

[Richard S.]

8 minutes ago, Yazurkial said:

It kind of depends on what you consider canon. All of the Hero Wars line of books took the view that multiple worlds mashed together and are somewhat mixed and somewhat separate. That doesn't matter much at all for lower-level players. But if that's really how the universe is, then it will matter if you play a hero (or a superhero, or immortal, or transcendent master, or an aspirant to apotheosis, or maybe dragonnewt). To my mind, Arkat was a PC.

Your personal canon can be different, sure; YGMV. Chaosium does have a single canon for their books though, which doesn't include the HW/HQ1 material. So the three worlds is non-canon, strictly speaking, and I imagine QWG will keep to that - for RQ compatibility if nothing else.

[Yazurkial]

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Your personal canon can be different, sure; YGMV. Chaosium does have a single canon for their books though, which doesn't include the HW/HQ1 material. So the three worlds is non-canon, strictly speaking, and I imagine QWG will keep to that - for RQ compatibility if nothing else.

Huh. I had forgotten that page exists!

And fair enough. I do appreciate Chaosium's focus on getting playable Glorantha stuff actually to market. This iteration of Chaosium has excelled at that. No one who has been playing in Glorantha for 40 years is going to agree with all the editorial decisions that have to be made. I recently wrote up a cult for a character that I'm playing. It's not a popular cult -- I've never heard of anyone else playing it. But there was some decent information on the web and in Greg's old works. And even with as little as that, it was unavoidable that I had to ignore some of it! So credit where it's due.

[Ian Cooper]

16 hours ago, Yazurkial said:

Huh. I had forgotten that page exists!

No one who has been playing in Glorantha for 40 years is going to agree with all the editorial decisions that have to be made.

Something I have realized over time is that Greg saw Glorantha as quite mutable and tended to shape it for the stories that those he was collaborating with wanted to tell. A lot of material that is not canon now was co-created with Greg, and for those creators that Glorantha seemed to represent Greg's viewpoint and was "canon" at that time. But when Greg then went on to work with another creator (or even work by himself) then Glorantha would shift for the needs of that creative endeavor. Understandably some of those creators felt betrayed that the vision their work derived from had changed. Hence the name "Gregging" and the notion that he was an Arkati Trickster shaman.

I think this is the truest meaning of YGWV, that even for Greg Glorantha varied, depending on who he was collaborating with, and what they wanted to create. HW/HQ but also RQ were all YWGV representations by Greg.

With Greg's passing even more so. Perhaps we should regard older visions not as "wrong" but simply different inspirations (to borrow that term from Glorantha).

Chaosium/Jeff is the current creative force, and so our current Glorantha represents that inspiration. The point is that it is entirely in keeping within the tradition of Glorantha that it changes to reflect its creative leads.

If we do get to publish a QW Glorantha - and that is an "if" - then it only makes sense for it to be based in the current inspiration from Chaosium.

Nothing stops you using an older inspiration, but for most folks the latest inspiration is that one they want. As someone who worked on older inspirations I have chosen to make my peace with changes from the inspirations I worked on, I hope others can too.

Edited January 21 by Ian Cooper

[Yazurkial]

Ian, I understand and agree with what you wrote. But as a response, it makes me think I wasn't clear, and left a misimpression. My main point is that doing the job that Chaosium is doing successfully right now is impossible to do without making editorial decisions -- they literally must make them in order to produce a product. And they must make them in such volume that they will inevitably gore someone's ox. That's ... a tough job. But to your point, if my ox is sufficiently gored, my Glorantha can always vary.

[JonL]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:12 AM, Richard S. said:

I think the view since the guide has been that the difference between great spirits and gods is more semantics than anything. An entity might appear differently depending on whether you encounter them in the spirit world or on the hero plane (or are invoking them in sorcery), but that doesn't mean that it's two separate entities, or that one of those environments is "unnatural" for it. Arcane Lore is a good source of ideas, but it's very much non-canonical.

My take is that the different approaches are somewhat akin to the parable of the blind men describing the elephant. None of them are wrong about their experiences and observations, but neither are their understandings comprehensive - even if you take them all together. An Orlanth worshipper, a Pentan who treats with West King Wind, and a Zzaburi pondering a tome of allegorical tales and sorcerous formulae attributed to Worlath will approach and relate to their otherworldly subject very differently, and certain approaches might be better suited to different applications, but they are all valid - if incomplete. 

Edited January 22 by JonL

[JonL]

(The elephant story is a pretty good point of reference for understanding Little Suns as well, IMO. The trunk, tusk, leg, etc. are all the elephant, yet a trunk is not a tusk - despite both being long tapered structures at the front of the elephant's face.)

Edited January 23 by JonL

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/20/2024 at 10:37 PM, Richard S. said:

So the three worlds is non-canon, strictly speaking

It's in the Guide (pp. 160-162).

That's enough for me.

Edited July 20 by Akhôrahil

[Zit]

Did anyone here clearly understand how the Feats work ? I'm still struggling with this.

Edited July 21 by Zit

[AndreasDavour]

15 hours ago, Zit said:

Did anyone here clearly understand how the Feats work ? I'm still struggling with this.

In the HQG game, it's basically specific powers of that god that only someone of the devotee level can use, as they are so closely emulating their god and its powers.

[Zit]

For instance "Heroform Waha" with, in the description, almost everything that Waha made. It's a bit weird, with one single Feat you can tame elementals, teach how to survive, dig a canal to devour Chaos, conquer night demons, tame Oakfed and the Wild Hunter and so forth...

And the exemple:

Air 11W – devotee of Orlanth Thunderous
Lightning Spear +1
Feat: The Thunderer +1

What makes the difference between Lightning Spear and the Feat "The Thunderer" ?

[AndreasDavour]

55 minutes ago, Zit said:

For instance "Heroform Waha" with, in the description, almost everything that Waha made. It's a bit weird, with one single Feat you can tame elementals, teach how to survive, dig a canal to devour Chaos, conquer night demons, tame Oakfed and the Wild Hunter and so forth...

And the exemple:

Air 11W – devotee of Orlanth Thunderous
Lightning Spear +1
Feat: The Thunderer +1

What makes the difference between Lightning Spear and the Feat "The Thunderer" ?

Heroform Waha is an interesting Feat, yes. Using it, you basically become Waha, and can do his deeds. Like it say in the description of Feats on p.146 "With a feat, you fully identify with your god, and perform his [sic!] magic as though you were the god". This business, Heroforming, is casually mentioned there on p.146 but where explained in more detail in earlier editions of the rules. It's the ultimate act of the devotee.

Orlanth is a more complex god than Waha, so it has more powers - Feats. The difference between the breakout ability Lightning Spear is that it's just one power to throw lightning. The feat you can use to, just like in the case of Waha, become the god and do all the things in the description. Go hog wild as long as the GM and the other players have fun! They just happen to have the same game mechanical value, of 11W+1.

Having read HQ1 and the QW SRD I think HQG is the worst of them all at describing both the rules and the setting. It's obtuse and way to involved in arcane jargon. Additionally, not very clearly laid out. I would suggest HQ1 to get a more traditional approach to game in Glorantha using the game system as a bridge between traditional simulation driven games and more narrative driven games. Then go to the QW SRD to apply the game mechanics to that understanding. I am in the middle of doing that now for a game in Sun County and the only thing I've adapted whole cloth from HQG is the sorcery rules.

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, AndreasDavour said:

Having read HQ1 and the QW SRD I think HQG is the worst of them all at describing both the rules and the setting. It’s obtuse and way too involved in arcane jargon.

And yet HQG is the officially sanctioned (i.e. JC-ready) version of the ruleset. Go figure! 😉