Simplifying Gloranthan magic

[Mark Mohrfield]

So far all editions of Hero Wars/HeroQuest/Questworlds have mechanically distinguished between the different forms of Gloranthan magic. I'm thinking it may be better to simply use exactly the same game mechanics for all of them. Any thoughts?

[Alex]

Probably so.  I think there's some legacy baggage where they came up with a good mechanic for Affinities, then decided to make things crunchier in an ad hoc manner, hence spirit magic and sorcery -- and mysticism, my goodness -- had to be different for the sake for being different.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

So far all editions of Hero Wars/HeroQuest/Questworlds have mechanically distinguished between the different forms of Gloranthan magic. I'm thinking it may be better to simply use exactly the same game mechanics for all of them. Any thoughts?

That's how I do it.

Someone with Chalana Arroy 10M (Sleep) is functionally the same as someone with Seven Mothers 10M (Madness), Grimoire of Dreams 10M (Force Sleep) or Satyr 10M (Song of Sleeping). The only difference is the effect of the spell, if you want to narrate them.

I can't be doing with nonsense such as "Spirit/Common Magic can only be used to augment" and that kind of thing.

[Richard S.]

Yeah, I basically treat all magic as mechanically pretty much the same, though for some credibility tests I do emphasize the difference a little, like sorcery being slow but very open to tinkering and rune magic having somewhat stronger effects than the other two forms.

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

So far all editions of Hero Wars/HeroQuest/Questworlds have mechanically distinguished between the different forms of Gloranthan magic. I'm thinking it may be better to simply use exactly the same game mechanics for all of them. Any thoughts?

I do not mechanically differentiate them, but they function off of different keywords.

Rune magic is always an ability based on the relevant Rune keyword.

I package sorcery as a grimoire, which is a keyword, and then the spells are abilities under that.

I generally play Spirit magic as isolated abilities (though could be under another keyword like a Spirit Tradition).

[Alex]

Arguably that is a mechanical differentiation, but by way of restricting how "packaging" works, rather than introducing entire new apparatuses for each.  Which I personally think is the enlightened/obvious compromise (thank you, Karallan!) based on the way past HW/HQ/QW treatments have tackled it.

[soltakss]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Rune magic is always an ability based on the relevant Rune keyword.

For me, Rune Magic could be part of the Rune Keyword or the Cult Keyword. Same with some Common/Spirit Magic, Bladesharp could come under Humakt or Death, for example.

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I package sorcery as a grimoire, which is a keyword, and then the spells are abilities under that.

Yes, that's how I do it.

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I generally play Spirit magic as isolated abilities (though could be under another keyword like a Spirit Tradition).

I very rarely use isolated abilities.

Far better to put Spirit Magic spells under cult keywords, Rune keywords, Tradition keywords or even Culture keywords. I would even have a Common Magic or Spirit Magic keyword with spells as Breakouts, but, for me, never as isolated abilities.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Far better to put Spirit Magic spells under cult keywords, Rune keywords, Tradition keywords or even Culture keywords. I would even have a Common Magic or Spirit Magic keyword with spells as Breakouts, but, for me, never as isolated abilities.

Those approaches all work.  I tend to be very flexible with my players in that regard.  And unless it's something prominent, most RQ-type spirit magics tend to be rolled into one of the keywords - not worth calling out.

[David Scott]

On 1/14/2022 at 1:16 AM, Mark Mohrfield said:

So far all editions of Hero Wars/HeroQuest/Questworlds have mechanically distinguished between the different forms of Gloranthan magic. I'm thinking it may be better to simply use exactly the same game mechanics for all of them. Any thoughts?

I can only speak for HeroQuest Glorantha, but we did try to make sure the mechanics were the same even if the narrative clothing was different.

Generally Magic hung off a Rune (Keyword), tied to 

Law for sorcery - something you know (spells from Grimoires)

Spirit for charms - something you have (charms from items)

specific Rune for theistic magic - something you are (freeform)

The next level down is Grimoire, Tradition, Cult. Never a value, effectively transparent. However Cult or Tradition could be a Culture (Keyword), but it then always viewed as a relationship, not a magic)

Then below that were the specific effects, spells, charms, feats as breakouts.

The other standardisation was 1W to formally join a magic group (Grimoire, Tradition, Cult) and 11W to become a shaman, sorcerer or devotee.

Then it's down to variations as you can for example hang spells and charms off your occupation (Keyword) and rarely Culture (Keyword). That's why the pregens did not appear consistent (to show other ways of doing it). The complexity comes when individuals are members of complex groups see building Makor the Strong or Jorjar Latish or complex cults with sub rune like the Seven Mothers. Look at Jorjar, who has two specific abilities hung of Law and a set of spells, plus cult of Pavis as a Community.

Personally I wouldn't change the ability of players to hang magic from different places as it makes for interesting hereos.

[Alex]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Personally I wouldn't change the ability of players to hang magic from different places as it makes for interesting hereos.

Very much agree.  You don't want every PC to be a random-looking assemblage of magical spare parts, so the concepts (runes, grimoires, traditions) and models for how to translate them into QW are very handy.  But you certainly want to allow scope for One Unique Things, quirks, and such points of difference.  Possibly even people who "repackage" their magical abilities in different ways, not that I have a great example of that off the cuff.

[Mark Mohrfield]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

I can only speak for HeroQuest Glorantha, but we did try to make sure the mechanics were the same even if the narrative clothing was different.

There are still a few instances of rules differentiation. Spirit Magic strikes me as being too complicated with all it's circumstantial bonuses, for example.

Quote

Personally I wouldn't change the ability of players to hang magic from different places as it makes for interesting hereos.

That I agree with.

[Richard S.]

35 minutes ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

There are still a few instances of rules differentiation. Spirit Magic strikes me as being too complicated with all it's circumstantial bonuses, for example.

What circumstantial bonuses?

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

There are still a few instances of rules differentiation. Spirit Magic strikes me as being too complicated with all it's circumstantial bonuses, for example.

Tbh we never used them. If I has writing that now I'd remove them.

11 hours ago, Richard S. said:

What circumstantial bonuses?

HQG pages 136-7: Once per session you can release a spirit for +3, shamans +9

and remove the The spirit is also released from its charm when you suffer a Complete Defeat on a Major Defeat, you can’t draw on the spirit again until the next session, as it must undertake a time-consuming journey back to the charm from its original home in the Spirit World.

Likewise I justused the normal Consequences of defeat.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Tbh we never used them. If I has writing that now I'd remove them.

I've never used either.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

11 hours ago, David Scott said:

Tbh we never used them. If I has writing that now I'd remove them.

Good. Hopefully they'll be removed from Questworlds Glorantha.

[alakoring]

When I created the magic rules for HeroQuest 2nd edition, the thresholds for Initiate and Tradition made sense based on starting values (you’d add 4 points to a rune that started at 17).

In QuestWorlds, your runes would presumably start at 10 (like any other ability). Keeping the 1M requirement feels really stringent. How are people handling this? Plausibly you can start a rune at 15 (as well as your defining ability and distinguishing characteristic). Or, since the numbers are all a bit lower, the requirement for Initiate is 15.

[Mark Mohrfield]

Are minimum scores even necessary?

[Ian_W]

15 hours ago, Mark Mohrfield said:

Are minimum scores even necessary?

Is it neccessary to distinguish between any Fifth Circle Mage ?

 

I mean, they are fifth circle - they are good, but not *that* good. Do we need to worry about how they get their power, how they learned it, or how they do it ?

 

Are we good with just writing down 'Fifth Circle Mage' and being done with it ?

[alakoring]

I think you’re right Mark, in that the default assumption is that everyone is an initiate.

But I think it may be worthwhile have a secondary level that not everyone has, since it supports the idea that you earn your way up to being a rune level. I think I may make this 1M, to hark back to the old RuneQuest idea of mastering a rune.

While just having a magic skill would certainly work, I’m trying to have a Gloranthan feel (runes and religious communities) without going too deep into special cases. To me, runes and grimoires as keywords supports this.

[Mark Mohrfield]

4 hours ago, alakoring said:

While just having a magic skill would certainly work, I’m trying to have a Gloranthan feel (runes and religious communities) without going too deep into special cases. To me, runes and grimoires as keywords supports this.  

I agree with this part, but I believe that the minimum levels,, if used at all, should be set low enough so that a beginning character can meet them even for professional magician types. Questworlds is the kind of game where you should be able to create an Istari Wizard and a potato farmer at the outset without any trouble.

Another approach might be to allow more breakout abilities for the full time magician types.

[JonL]

I've long found the minimum levels to be somewhat incoherent with the idea that ratings are measures of metafictional problem solving efficacy moreso than quantifying in-fiction capability. The mechanics work fine with either approach, but using one approach for some things and the other elsewhere can lead to some cognitive dissonance.

Edited December 11, 2023 by JonL

[Ian Cooper]

I have a rough draft that I use which leans into Glorantha as presented in RQG. My goal is to make it easy to use RQG books with a QW Glorantha genre pack.

I also realized from playing with D&D players, that rules that are too "improvisational" are hard for folks that don't know the setting. So you either end up writing a treatise on metaphysics to guide them or you just mirror RQG spell lists. The heart of this is the "credibility test" which we emphasize more in QW. What you can do with "incredible powers" is defined by the table understanding of the setting's "rules" for that power. RQG defines the rules for Glorantha then for our purpose.

Some notes from my current draft:

Quote

In RuneQuest your character has skill ratings for all the elemental and power Runes. Because QuestWorlds focuses on a smaller range of abilities that your character is renowned for, rather than rate them at everything, we recommend only taking abilities for their most defining runes.  In earlier editions of QuestWorlds your character’s personality and magic was defined by Three Runes; you can use three runes as a default, but feel free to have any number of rune keywords.
    •    In RuneQuest, your Runes are used as the direct ability to cast Rune Magic, but separate skills are used for spirit magic and each Sorcery spell. In QuestWorlds we always use your rating with the breakout from the Rune you know the spell under. This approach is a simplification which is consistent with the different focus of a storytelling game.
    •    RuneQuest quantifies spells with numbers for duration, range, and effect. In QuestWorlds, with its storytelling focus and use of ‘theatre of the mind,’ we provide broad guidelines about what is credible, and modifiers for difficulty, but we don’t quantify magic.
    •    RuneQuest has Rune Masters, which have not existed in prior editions of QuestWorlds. To better align RuneQuest and QuestWorlds we have added the Rune Master status to QuestWorlds.
    •    Becoming a shaman or sorcerer requires possession of specific Runes. This requirement does not exist in RuneQuest. It is added here for alignment with how these magic systems worked in prior editions of QuestWorlds and to indicate the uniqueness of these statuses.
    •    RuneQuest uses the term Allied Spirit, but previous versions of QuestWorlds used Divine Companion. We equate both terms here but use allied spirit in preference to match RuneQuest.

Quote

Write a spirit magic spell on your character sheet as a breakout from the appropriate Rune.

g Air Rune 10
Spirit Magic:
    Sharp +5

Quote

Write on your character sheet: Initiate of (Deity) under the Rune you use as your divine connection to the god, e.g. Initiate of Orlanth.

g Air Rune 17
Initiate of Orlanth

 

Quote

Write a rune magic spell on your character sheet as a breakout from the appropriate Rune. You can learn a rune spell if it is common or listed for your god.

g Air Rune 17

Rune Magic:
  Lightning  +5

 

Quote

In QuestWorlds we treat invoking divine aid as spending one or more story points. Your GM should decide how many story points dependent on how great the miracle is that you are asking the deity to perform. Regardless of the number of story points you spend, the actions must be within the capacity of the deity and the GM.

 I have some notes on rituals, illumination etc too.

But the key here, and as always with QW when creating a genre pack is to emulate the "feel" of the existing game, and make it easy to translate the materials.

Of course, you can just use an earlier HW/HQ approach, if you have that and prefer.

 

 

Edited January 20 by Ian Cooper

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Ian Cooper said:

I have a rough draft that I use which leans into Glorantha as presented in RQG. My goal is to make it easy to use RQG books with a QW Glorantha genre pack.

I also realized from playing with D&D players, that rules that are too "improvisational" are hard for folks that don't know the setting. So you either end up writing a treatise on metaphysics to guide them or you just mirror RQG spell lists. The heart of this is the "credibility test" which we emphasize more in QW. What you can do with "incredible powers" is defined by the table understanding of the setting's "rules" for that power. RQG defines the rules for Glorantha then for our purpose.

Some notes from my current draft:

 

 I have some notes on rituals, illumination etc too.

But the key here, and as always with QW when creating a genre pack is to emulate the "feel" of the existing game, and make it easy to translate the materials.

Of course, you can just use an earlier HW/HQ approach, if you have that and prefer.

I like the new approach! It sounds very similar to how I've been handling it.

Personally, I also allow sorcery and spirit magic to be breakouts from non-rune keywords, or standalone abilities, since in RQ they're not tied to your rune affinities. Cult spirit magic can go under a rune keyword, but spells learned outside that context might be part of your cultural knowledge, a community relationship, occupational training, etc.

[Yazurkial]

Ian:

Are you trying to reimpose the three (and a half?) worlds view as well? It's not so relevant for beginning players, obviously. But the HQ mechanic lends itself to the higher-level-player complexity that Greg talked about in Arcane Lore. Even at low levels, the treatment of great spirits as gods in RQG rubs me wrong. But it works OK as a mechanic at low levels. I haven't tried it at high levels for an animist yet.

[Ian Cooper]

10 minutes ago, Yazurkial said:

Ian:

Are you trying to reimpose the three (and a half?) worlds view as well? It's not so relevant for beginning players, obviously. But the HQ mechanic lends itself to the higher-level-player complexity that Greg talked about in Arcane Lore. Even at low levels, the treatment of great spirits as gods in RQG rubs me wrong. But it works OK as a mechanic at low levels. I haven't tried it at high levels for an animist yet.

The world view is that of RQG