BRP on Spirit Combat, Broos, Disease and Possession

[icebrand]

Yesterday i ran episode 3 of troubled waters (campaign on River of Craddles) for my BRP/RQ characters.

They got to fight the broos, and since they have the total Hit Points, i went tactics-heavy on the folks. The weasels stayed out the fight in a separate chamber (they tried to make a run for it at the end), and everything went dandy, except for spirits.

For the spirit combat part i used the RQ3 rules on MP vs MP, but i really should have used POW vs POW (since in my incarnation of the magic system external sources of MP are very hard to nonexistant to come by, and using MP vs MP would make spellcasting not worth it at all unless you are rune-level). I ruled that the spirit can possess you if it has 10+ MP than you do (to enable possession whithout having to take you out first). A special did 2D3 damage and a crit did 1D3+3.

Of course, spirits kicked my PC's ass into next week. The animist got possessed by a madness spirit (POW 15, no real chance to win) and the vingan almost got possessed too, but i let the animist make a hard spirit lore roll to taunt the fear spirit (POW 12) come attack and possess her [that's what happened by the way].

Demoralize by Toadface wrecked havoc, and regretably i had to make Grandpa cast dispel magic on the PC's (the alternative was run away, wait untill the spell wore off, and come back, and it seemed WAY anticlimatic).

Then we got disease. Four of the Broos had the wastes, but on RQ3 it did not say how they actually pass that on. I just saw the "disease carrier" mutation for them, but i spot-ruled that they are possessed by a disease spirit, so when you kill them it attacks you [i know, it SUCKS, specially since those have 3D6+6 vs 3 to 8 current MP characters], so i got two PC's with 2 wastes spirits each, the whole party has 2 spirits covertly possessing them.

Finally, they ended with the broo menace. Toadface would have REALLY complicated stuff for them if he joined melee, but i used him as spellcasting support and tried to make a run for it when stuff looked REALLY grim -he got killed by a robinhoodesque special arrow to the chest- [we roll hit location and disable that instead rolling on the major wound table, i dont like tables and i find that hit locations make excelent major wounds, i get the best of both systems]

So, questions time:

1- How would you make the broo pass their diseases?

Since they are magical in nature, they may need to be "covertly possessed" by a spirit (or maybe just blessed by malia). If so, what happens when they die? I would need to "spirit combat after death" thats a chaos feature itself, only cooler (you get attacked by one of malia's handmaidens instead of a stupid goat-headed dimwitted dead broo).

We can also use the "mutation" for a 2D10 or 4D10 disease, and we avoid an uneccessary spirit combat (i don't really want people calling the crimson bat just because 5 feral broo attack a farm, and having them run around with 3D6+6 life-wreaking spirits that present a 10x menace than the broo itself doesn't seem that good).

So, they have this mutation, how does it spread? They SURELY coat their weapons with feces, so you get to roll if you are hurt (it's a ritualesque thing, we all know there is no such thing as bacteria). Will the blood or spit of the broo transmit it? I would say the blood beeing its tainted chaotic life-force surelly has disease imbued all over, but spit? prolly not. Then again, what about pee? they sure pee all over everything, but are they THAT contagious?

Do you roll once per exposure, or once at the end of the scene?

2- Spirit Combat

Spirit Combat must work for all "levels". Sadly, on RQ3 spirits didn't scale very well. They were a terrible, terrible menace that could wipe out entire parties, and then you were a brand new shaman or acolyte-level (that sacrificed 2-3 pts of spirit block) and they became an annoyance alltoghether.

What i'm thinking of:

POW vs POW instead of MP vs MP. It gives a break to starting pc's (where most of the spirits wrecked stuff) and puts "MP" spirits on pair with ghosts and disease spirits.

This lets my PCs actually SPEND their MP instead of keeping them for "spirit defense purpose" (and may synergize well with spirit blocks/screens by trading "hit points" for chance to defend).

Special and Crits do more damage. 1D3 / 2D3 / 1D3+3 is what i ad-hoced, but it may be a 'lil excessive. Maybe 1D3 / 1D3+1 / 1D3+2 ?

Possession happens at 10MP less than the opponent a spirit can possess you once it has 10MP more than you. It still needs a POW vs POW roll to do that (and you keep fighting it if it fails, possibly closing the MP gap). This allows spirits to possess you without taking you off the fight MP-Wise, while keeping with the old (RQ2) style, and possibly with RQ3 (it was really pointless to keep rolling 95% vs 5%, chances to actually win that are probably less than getting the lottery).

That's all i can think of now!

Edited July 26, 2010 by icebrand

[Merak Gren]

With regard to the disease risk, I've always palyed it by the RQ spot rules on diseases. Ie roll you CONx5 if you fail, you roll again until you pass. The number of times failed would give you the severity of the disease. I'm sure there was a Cormac's Saga about it.

Handling infected objects is the standard digficulty of CONx5. For wounds I'd go to CON x 3 or thereabouts epending on frequency / severity of wounds. I'd allow a first aid to 'clean" up each wound.

Spirit combat. I've never really liked it. Its too dangerous and 'final'. I'd be tempted to allow a 'rematch' after 24 hours to allow the players to regain control and go from dominant possession to covert possession. Without a Shaman in the party or as froendly npc, spirits are a real pain.

[icebrand]

With regard to the disease risk, I've always palyed it by the RQ spot rules on diseases. Ie roll you CONx5 if you fail, you roll again until you pass. The number of times failed would give you the severity of the disease. I'm sure there was a Cormac's Saga about it.

Handling infected objects is the standard digficulty of CONx5. For wounds I'd go to CON x 3 or thereabouts epending on frequency / severity of wounds. I'd allow a first aid to 'clean" up each wound.

Spirit combat. I've never really liked it. Its too dangerous and 'final'. I'd be tempted to allow a 'rematch' after 24 hours to allow the players to regain control and go from dominant possession to covert possession. Without a Shaman in the party or as froendly npc, spirits are a real pain.

Yeah, i found those spot rules (it's basically the same on the BGB) after posting the message , Still, the new ones are better.

The problem with dominant possessions (as far as i remeber only ghosts do that) is that you are possessed by a life-hating totally insane spirit *or* a controlled one. Most of the time that means instant suicide, so rematches are kinda off (as a spot rule, i would say a random ghost would commit suicide unless you succeed on a luck roll).

Also, on spirit combat, i dont know if i should make it instant (i.e: roll the whole combat to its completion at once) or go round after round (in which case it shouldn't use an action, otherwise if you give me a couple of bound spirits i can defeat the cacodemon!)

As for "permanent", usually (on most literature) once you are possessed that's it, they need to call an exorcist (beware with the shaman union if you plan on passing those "rematch" ideas, they are not very kind to those who try to undermine shamanic ways of income!!!). This mean they can call a shaman.

Westerners SHOULD have a method of exorcism, since they are not shaman-friendly!

Edited July 26, 2010 by icebrand

[Merak Gren]

Yeah, i found those spot rules (it's basically the same on the BGB) after posting the message , Still, the new ones are better.

The problem with dominant possessions (as far as i remeber only ghosts do that) is that you are possessed by a life-hating totally insane spirit *or* a controlled one. Most of the time that means instant suicide, so rematches are kinda off (as a spot rule, i would say a random ghost would commit suicide unless you succeed on a luck roll).

Also, on spirit combat, i dont know if i should make it instant (i.e: roll the whole combat to its completion at once) or go round after round (in which case it shouldn't use an action, otherwise if you give me a couple of bound spirits i can defeat the cacodemon!)

As for "permanent", usually (on most literature) once you are possessed that's it, they need to call an exorcist (beware with the shaman union if you plan on passing those "rematch" ideas, they are not very kind to those who try to undermine shamanic ways of income!!!). This mean they can call a shaman.

Westerners SHOULD have a method of exorcism, since they are not shaman-friendly!

Ah yes you are right about ghosts. Ghosts have tainted the whole spirit combat thing for me, as they always seem to be TPK traps as designed. I've always wanted to run 'A Tale to Tell' from Shadows in the Borderlands, but that is a seriously 'for experienced RQ players only' kind of game. The pool with the mad head ghosts is a death trap.

The average Theist PC is kind of stumped when confronting ghosts / spirits.

[soltakss]

Broos are full of disease. They wipe their weapons with their droppings and smear themselves with filth. This means that anyone exposed to a broo will encounter all the diseases carried by that broo. I'd make a CON roll when coming into melee with the broos and again if you are injured by a broo. Broos aren't very nice.

Spirit Combat in RQ3 can be quite dangerous - the best tactic is to run away and hope the spirit is bound to a particular location and doesn't come running after you. Spirits set loose by shamans are particularly dangerous.

We don't use the RQ3 Spirit Combat rules, instead we have a Spirit Combat skill which does 1D3 damage (2D3 on a special, 1D3+3 on a critical) plus 1 for every 10 point of POW, or part thereof, so a POW 11 spirit would do 1D3+2 damage and a POW 45 spirit would do 1D3+5 damage, but defending in Spirit Combat blocks a similar amount of damage. It seems to work reasonably well.

Spirit Shield/Spirit Screen/Spirit Block are useful against spirits - we play that you can cast it whilst in spirit combat, otherwise it's useless.

Not all ghosts cause the possessed body to kill itself. Many want to come back and enjoy life again, so will happily wander off until they are killed or exorcised. Passion Spirits will covertly possess the body and cause problems.

[Rungard]

>(in which case it shouldn't use an action, otherwise if you give me a couple of bound spirits i can defeat the cacodemon!)

Hi, I'm using the houserules for spirit combat that Simon posted on his huge website and I allow for a concentration roll (INTx3) for the characters to do anything else than spirit combat when attacked by a spirit. I guess for shamans I'd say a INTx5 concentration roll, as they're more used to it.

However, Icebrand's mention of the cacodemon makes me wonder, what can this demon really do (with Simon's rules) against spirits??? Can he fight them and still face wordly oponents? What's his skill in Spirit Combat???

[icebrand]

>(in which case it shouldn't use an action, otherwise if you give me a couple of bound spirits i can defeat the cacodemon!)

Hi, I'm using the houserules for spirit combat that Simon posted on his huge website and I allow for a concentration roll (INTx3) for the characters to do anything else than spirit combat when attacked by a spirit. I guess for shamans I'd say a INTx5 concentration roll, as they're more used to it.

However, Icebrand's mention of the cacodemon makes me wonder, what can this demon really do (with Simon's rules) against spirits??? Can he fight them and still face wordly oponents? What's his skill in Spirit Combat???

The """problem""" with simon rules (as they would work on our games) is that it makes the spirit+physical opponent combo way deadlier. I guess it works if spirits are rare, but in my glorantha, while not being dime a dozen, they are somewhat common (especially for rune levels).

The cacodemon itself should face no threat against the strategy i described (since he probably has chaos spirit followers as well as fiends), but the PC's facing him, if able to defeat fiends, won't be anymore cause of said spirits.

In addition, any group with a shaman can make short work of anyone/anything that has no spirit block... "oh, they are just 3 dream dragons, lets just hurl a couple of spirits at them and then just kill them while they can't fight back"

PS: i haven't actually read simon rules, im using my interpretation of what you said . I guess spirit block is a (more) popular spell at simon games

PS2: im STILL looking for viable spirit combat rules; Fire & Sword's are nice, but i need some kind of "damage" *and* im not sure fighting spirit combat to completion is the way to go (you used to be able to do other stuff while beeing pwned by a powerful spirit, in F&S you cant even cast spirit screen).

[soltakss]

The """problem""" with simon rules (as they would work on our games) is that it makes the spirit+physical opponent combo way deadlier. I guess it works if spirits are rare, but in my glorantha, while not being dime a dozen, they are somewhat common (especially for rune levels).

Spirits are dangerous in my Spirit Combat rules. Well, powerful spirits are dangerous, weak spirits are only dangerous if the PCs don't know how to deal with them, a PC with a higher Spirit Combat skill will eventually probably win against a Spirit of similar POW.

As for Spirit Combat and Physical Combat combined, yes it is difficult. If you play that you have 2 Combat Actions per round, then you have to decide what to use them for. Do you fight in Spirit Combat or parry the broo who is attacking you? The same thing applies to normal combat - I am fighting 3 opponents, one of which is a spirit, which one do I attack/parry/dodge/? The best bet, unless fighting a major spirit, is to ignore the spirit and fight the others, hoping that the spirit takes a long time to eat away Magic Points and that you can disable the other foes quickly enough to fight the spirit.

Also, on spirit combat, i dont know if i should make it instant (i.e: roll the whole combat to its completion at once) or go round after round (in which case it shouldn't use an action, otherwise if you give me a couple of bound spirits i can defeat the cacodemon!)

I didn't spot this the first time around. Unfortunately, this assumes that Cacodemon is easy to beat in the first place.

Let's assume an average incarnation of Cacodemon. It has 222 POW, which means that any spirit of less than 212 POW has a 5% chance of beating it in Spirit Combat in any round, even if they succeed they do 1D3 MPs damage, average 2, so it would take 111 rounds of making those 5%s, or approximately 2220 rounds to defeat him in Spirit Combat. Assume that we throw 10 spirits at it, each with, say, 60 POW (The equivalent of a reasonably powerful shaman in Troll Pack), that would still take 222 rounds to win. (OK, it might take less, but I am assuming that Cacodemon resists with its POW not MPs as it is a deity). For those 222 rounds, it would have 6 physical attacks to throw at foes, each of which would take out a normal person in one blow.

Then, don't forget its 8D6 Fiends (average 28). These might not be a problem against powerful foes, but they can slow down Rune Lords if attacking in large numbers.

Also, Cacodemon can use "all its attacks in any round" - including Spirit Combat, so it doesn't lose any of its attacks if in Spirit Combat, it simply has more attacks.

So, unfortunately, Cacodemon is not a particularly good example to use. If it decided to attack in Spirit Combat, it would take 2 MPs off spirits each round until it reduces the spirit to 0 MP, then it attacks the next one. The POW 60 spirits are reduced to 0 in 30 rounds, so Cacodemon takes 8 spirits out before it is beaten, except that it doesn't because by taking out the other spirits, it takes longer to grind it down and it can take out the other 2 spirits. So, Cacodemon can probably withstand an attack by 10 POW 60 spirits and I laugh at your "couple of bound spirits"

The cacodemon itself should face no threat against the strategy i described (since he probably has chaos spirit followers as well as fiends), but the PC's facing him, if able to defeat fiends, won't be anymore cause of said spirits.

Maybe, but that is good, isn't it? Throw spirits at someone and they run away.

In addition, any group with a shaman can make short work of anyone/anything that has no spirit block... "oh, they are just 3 dream dragons, lets just hurl a couple of spirits at them and then just kill them while they can't fight back"

No, because spirits can be defeated in spirit combat by a more powerful foe.

PS: i haven't actually read simon rules, im using my interpretation of what you said . I guess spirit block is a (more) popular spell at simon games

Spirit Block is a spell that every cult gets and very few people sacrifice for. Then they meet a spirit, see what they can do and go down the temple to pick up some Spirit Block and Spirit Shield spells.

In my system, Spirit Block and Spirit Shield have been down powered. In RQ2/3 they make Spirit Combat essentially redundant and I've never liked how that works.

PS2: im STILL looking for viable spirit combat rules; Fire & Sword's are nice, but i need some kind of "damage" *and* im not sure fighting spirit combat to completion is the way to go (you used to be able to do other stuff while beeing pwned by a powerful spirit, in F&S you cant even cast spirit screen).

If you haven't looked at my rules, please do so, They are at http://www.soltakss.com/spirit4.html and, while I don't say they are perfect, they work well for me. In our current game, I have down-powered them slightly and made Spirit Combat damage 1D3 + 1 per 10 POW of the Spirit, so a spirit with 35 POW does 1D3+4 or 2D3+8 when attacking all-out. Spirit Shield/Block simply increases the defending POW, thus increasing the damage blocked.

Good luck in your search for a new way of handling Spirit Combat.

Don't even think of taking out Cacodemon with a couple of bound spirits!

[Rungard]

So, unfortunately, Cacodemon is not a particularly good example to use.

What about Ralzakark using the spirit combat rules in your website?

Would a shaman be able to destroy him by throwing 3 ghosts at him and some Dispel Magic, while a warrior beats him to death?

(I like your rules)

[soltakss]

Ralzakark? Yes, you could probably beat him by throwing spirits at him while other people beats him to death.

However, you'd have to counter his bodyguard of Humakti Castrati Broos and his pet Godlearner Sorcerers first. Then there's the other broos who hang around him and whatever chaos demons he can summon up against you.

Oh, and don't forget that Ralzakark might be a Broo Shaman, a Sorcerer, a Humakti or a Chaos Monster, or all of these at once. He's also very persuasive and knew Nysalor, so he knows a few little tricks.

The trouble with heroes is that they have powerful friends and servants. Get them alone and you might stand a chance. Go up against them and their mates and you join the ranks of the fallen.

I'm glad you like my spirit combat rules, thanks. In my current game, we've slightly down-powered the shamanic rules, so Spirit Combat does 1D3 + [1 per 10 POW or part thereof], which still makes spirits dangerous but reduces the number of dice to be rolled.