Inheritance question

[Uqbarian]

Say Sir Alain is a vassal knight with a granted manor. He has a younger sister, Lady Bronwen, and a younger brother, Sir Celyn. (Bronwen is older than Celyn.) Alain has no children. Bronwen is married and has a son; Celyn is also married and has a son.

Sir Celyn dies, then Sir Alain dies. Does the manor go to Bronwen's son or Celyn's?

I think the 'logic' of the situation is that, when Alain dies without a child, one would check for male collaterals first. I've read a couple of references that deceased collaterals are represented by their descendants, which suggests that Celyn's son would inherit. (As in, if Celyn was still alive when Alain died, he would inherit, so Celyn's son inherits by filling Celyn's place in the tree.) But I'm not sure.

(I've also read that this sort of thing wasn't settled law in England until the mid or late thirteenth century, so my actual answer in-game -- still in Uther period -- is likely to be that there's a family squabble, it's kicked back to the count to decide during escheatment, and he picks whoever he likes best. I'm still curious as to what the 'real' answer would be, though.)

[Tizun Thane]

Theoretically, Celyn's son first. The male branch has priority. (check Just)

In practice, it depends on the time period, who is in favour at Court, who is the most powerful, etc.

[Morien]

If the Manor was granted to Alain, then it reverts back to the liege. 

If it belonged to Alain's father, then yes, male branch would be preferred, but Bronwyn and her husband would be in an excellent position to argue otherwise, if Celyn's son is young and without strong backers of his own (primarily Celyn's wife and her family). 

[Uqbarian]

Thanks, folks!

10 minutes ago, Morien said:

If the Manor was granted to Alain, then it reverts back to the liege.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood something -- I thought gifted manors were the ones that reverted back, whereas granted manors were those that could be passed on. (In this case, the manor was originally granted to one of Alain's ancestors anyway, so it's definitely in the heritable category.)

[Morien]

It depends how the grant was worded. If it was granted to Alain and his descendants (I.e heirs of his body), and he dies without children, it returns to the grantor.

His siblings are not his descendants. But if it was the ancestral Manor which Alain inherited, then yes siblings would be heirs to it. 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Morien

[Uqbarian]

Oh, I see what you mean. Thanks!

[Tizun Thane]

If the title of property is lost, it could be hilarious.

[svensson]

Answering the OP:

The law and custom of primogeniture seeks to keep property in the hands of the named family and, failing that, specifically describing the lineage necessary to inherit that property if the direct male descendant line dies out.

Strictly adhering to that basis, Sir Celyn would inherit the family's tenured fief. Lady Bronwyn has married. English, French and German law in the Crusades era all clearly state that she takes on her husband's prospects [titles, lineages, properties, etc.] and that her son has no claim to Sir Alain's lands while a direct male heir of her father still lives.

But yes, the noble senior to the 'MacAlain' family [be it baron, count, earl or duke] will certainly have an opinion of who ought to inherit the property if any bar exists to Sir Celyn.... if Sir Celyn were a felon, or had a disease that might impact his heirs [leprosy, for example], or was a bastard [acknowledged or not]. And the two points that the liege lord will look at are: a] How will this effect my feudal muster and b] How do I think any heir will do in paying their taxes and stewarding the fief.