1 combat round?

[carrock]

Hello everyone,

I have a question to ask. Let there be an effect that has duration 1 combat round; how we count it (according to the BRP core book)?

For example, if i score a special crushing blow at DEX18 on an orc's head and it fails the stamina roll it will be stunned lets say for 1 combat round. So my fellow adventurer hits the orc with his sword at DEX15 as a stunned enemy. Next round is the orc stunned?

What if the crushing attack was at DEX1 ? Next round is the orc stunned?

----------Please insert the word orc in spell checking :-)-------------

Edited January 21, 2011 by carrock

[Eggnogisgood]

Hi.

I'd probably rule that the orc was stunned until DEX19 the following round - so it's one whole round from when the stunning blow connects. If it's still conscious, it would be able to act normally from DEX18 onwards.

Hope that helps.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Eggnogisgood

[carrock]

That seems logical. But my question is what does it mean 'stunned for 1round' according to the core mechanics of the BRP(golden book).

I was also wandering why do we need the resolution phase. Damage and effects resolve after the combat action?

[Eggnogisgood]

That is my interpretation of the meaning of 'stunned for 1 round' according to the core mechanics, as applied to the example you gave.

[carrock]

But this is not the definition of 1 round.

Edited January 18, 2011 by carrock

[pansophy]

I would go with the definition as used for Powers:

"Powers used in a previous round will “go off” at the beginning of a new combat round if their effects are not instantaneous."

and

"Most powers require exactly one full combat round to prepare and use, with their effects occurring at the beginning of the next combat round during the powers phase."

To simplify things during a combat, I would judge according to these definitions, that the 'stun effect' lasts for one round and the orc simply looses its next actions until the next combat round begins. This would only be useful though, if the orc has more than one action in a round. Otherwise it is just a roleplay effect to show how effective the blow was.

Or, in a different situation, that the stun effect will start next round and end at the end of that round as well. This I would do, if the orc only has one action in a combat and it is a potential threat to the PCs.

Edited January 18, 2011 by pansophy

[carrock]

I also use the definition as used for powers. So if the effect takes place at DEX 1 for example, next round the effect stops if it lasts for 1round.

However, my impression is that the rules are not clear on how long 1 combat round is, when the effect starts inside the combat phase(see the orc example in the first thread). This may cause problems to critical situations were the party is in danger. Please, give a clear definition or clarification according to the official mechanics to don't disagree with my party all night...

Edited January 18, 2011 by carrock

[rust]

The fact that the orc is stunned affects the orc's options for actions in his next

combat round, he cannot attack and needs a success with an Idea roll to dodge

or parry and successes with an Idea roll and an Agility roll to flee. This obvious-

ly means that the orc will remain stunned until after the moment in the time se-

quence when he could normally make his next action, and I would probably rule

that he remains stunned until his second opportunity to act after he had been

stunned - he "loses" the first one, but recovers in time for the second one.

[simonh]

In an ambiguous case like this, I'd need to discuss it with my players and come to a consensus with them. I'd not be comfortable handing down an edict because could be a matter of life and death for a player character.

My preferred solution is that if the affected character hasn't acted yet this round, then the effect is just for the remainder of this round.

If the character has acted this round then the effect lasts for the remainder of this round and for the whole of the following round. In other words if the character had actions remaining to be taken this round they are affected, in addition to all actions next round.

That's a fairly harsh interpretation, but keeps things simple and would probably apply this to NPCs anyway regardless of characters wanting more fiddly and generous interpretations for themselves, just to avoid book keeping headaches for yours truly.

I can imagine one other interpretation that is viable. If the affected character hasn't yet actes, then the effect applies to this round, however if the character has already acted the effect does not start untill the beginning of the next round. In other words remaining actions this round are not affected. After all, when you stub your toe or bash your head it doesn't hurt immediately. There's often a brief pause of a few seconds untill the pain kicks in. I'm not sure about this one, but it is reasonably fair.

Simon Hibbs

[soltakss]

If you use Strike Ranks, the next round lasts until the relevant strike rank. Presumably the same applies to Dex Ranks.

There used to be a similar issue in RQ2/3 when you fumbled and lost your next so many attacks, if you didn't atack in that combat how long did the fumble last.

You have to use common sense in such situations and fit the solution to the actual gameplay that occured.

So, if the orc is stunned for a round then I would say that he is stunned until a similar time (SR/DEX rank/Whatever) the next round. I wouldn't say that it lasts untuil the end of the round as the orc might have been stunned at the very end of the round making it a meaningless penalty.

[vagabond]

If you use Strike Ranks, the next round lasts until the relevant strike rank. Presumably the same applies to Dex Ranks.

There used to be a similar issue in RQ2/3 when you fumbled and lost your next so many attacks, if you didn't atack in that combat how long did the fumble last.

You have to use common sense in such situations and fit the solution to the actual gameplay that occured.

So, if the orc is stunned for a round then I would say that he is stunned until a similar time (SR/DEX rank/Whatever) the next round. I wouldn't say that it lasts untuil the end of the round as the orc might have been stunned at the very end of the round making it a meaningless penalty.

This would be my interpretation as well.

Ian

[pansophy]

looks like it is a matter of taste and interpretation

[vagabond]

looks like it is a matter of taste and interpretation

One way to measure a combat round, and consistently I might add, is by DEX ranks (by default) or Strike Ranks.

Looking at DEX ranks - if you start at the highest DEX rank of the combatants, say 20, and count down to the lowest, say 5, you have 15 DEX ranks in that round. If a character is stunned on DEX rank 10, then a full combat round goes from the current DEX rank 10, down to the last DEX rank 5, and then cycles over to the next combat round at DEX 20, and counts back down to DEX rank 10. A full combat round has now passed, and the character is no longer stunned. Even if someone new enters the fray at DEX rank 21, you still have a pretty consistent way to represent a full round by counting back down to DEX rank 10.

This is a very simple and consistent way to deal with full combat round (and even multiple combat round) effects occurring in the middle of a combat round.

Ian

[carrock]

So, you need a house rule to measure the effect of a special success inside the combat phase.... I think that there must be a ''by the book" way to do it. It's not a strange situation to have a special success with a crushing blow which resolves to a stunned target... Either a clarification is needed or a better definition.

I Gm Stormbringer since 1996 until now (proudly speaking from Greece) and I never thought about it because a situation like this it's quit uncommon in the set-up. In BRP it is quit common as I posted in the previous paragraph. You cannot kill someone with a house rule or at least I don't enjoy it (sardonically laughing)! Something of the flavor goes away...

[pansophy]

@vagabond:

Yes, the way you see it is right from a mathematical way. But as I quoted earlier, the rules for Powers count Combat rounds in a different way - effects simply end at the start of the next combat round, no DEX ranks mentioned. But whatever works for a gaming group best will be fine I guess ...

[vagabond]

So, you need a house rule to measure the effect of a special success inside the combat phase.... I think that there must be a ''by the book" way to do it. It's not a strange situation to have a special success with a crushing blow which resolves to a stunned target... Either a clarification is needed or a better definition.

I Gm Stormbringer since 1996 until now (proudly speaking from Greece) and I never thought about it because a situation like this it's quit uncommon in the set-up. In BRP it is quit common as I posted in the previous paragraph. You cannot kill someone with a house rule or at least I don't enjoy it (sardonically laughing)! Something of the flavor goes away...

I am not sure why you think this is a house rule issue. A combat round can be measured in multiple ways. However, the most consistent is by using DEX ranks (or Strike ranks, depending on which "initiative" system you prefer).

By default, a combat round goes from the highest DEX rank to the lowest DEX rank. Therefore, a consistent way to determine a "full" combat round if you start in the middle of one round is to cycle through the end of the first combat round, and then count down in the next combat round until you reach the DEX rank you started counting at in the first combat round.

Again, in my example, if an effect starts at DEX rank 10 in combat round one, a full combat round later would be DEX rank 10 in combat round two.

Ian

[pansophy]

@vagabond:

Yes, I agree with that. If the situation really has to be measured in that very detail, your DEX rank explanation is completely right.

In practise, I find it too cumbersome and simply rule "The orc loses its next three attacks (as it is allowed to attack once per combat round)" and I'm done

Let's not overcomplicate it, this is not GURPS or HERO ... ^^

[vagabond]

@vagabond:

Yes, the way you see it is right from a mathematical way. But as I quoted earlier, the rules for Powers count Combat rounds in a different way - effects simply end at the start of the next combat round, no DEX ranks mentioned. But whatever works for a gaming group best will be fine I guess ...

Using the rules you quoted earlier:

"Powers used in a previous round will “go off” at the beginning of a new combat round if their effects are not instantaneous."

and

"Most powers require exactly one full combat round to prepare and use, with their effects occurring at the beginning of the next combat round during the powers phase."

if a Power takes one combat round to prepare and take effect - it starts before the highest DEX rank in the combat round (the Powers phase takes place before the combat phase), counts down through the DEX ranks until the last DEX rank takes a combat action, the new round begins, and the Power takes effect before the next combat round begins. So, again, using DEX ranks, we have counted a full combat round.

However, the OP was using a combat round result, which occurs during the combat phase, and gets resolved in the next combat phase. DEX rank to DEX rank is a full combat round, Powers act outside this, but still adhere to the fact that you must march through a full combat round (aka all necessary DEX ranks) before they take effect. Again, DEX rank to DEX rank is the most consistent way to count a combat round.

Ian

[vagabond]

@vagabond:

Yes, I agree with that. If the situation really has to be measured in that very detail, your DEX rank explanation is completely right.

In practise, I find it too cumbersome and simply rule "The orc loses its next three attacks (as it is allowed to attack once per combat round)" and I'm done

Let's not overcomplicate it, this is not GURPS or HERO ... ^^

There is no complication. The orc is stunned on DEX rank 10. The effect lasts a full combat round. The orc may act again in the next combat round starting at DEX rank 10. A full combat round has passed. If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 7, he loses his action in the first combat round. If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 11, he loses his action in the second combat round. It is very simple and precise.

Ian

[pansophy]

(My) Rule Clarification:

If something is stunned for X amount of rounds, it means the target loses its actions for the next X rounds, starting with the current round. This includes all offensive actions as well as 'other' active actions. The Target is still able to parry if he or she makes a successful Idea roll for each attempt. Furthermore, all attacks against the target are made as if Easy actions. The stunned target can attempt to flee, but to do so requires a successful Idea roll to discern an escape path and a successful Agility roll to get out of danger.

Example: An orc attacks a knight at DEX 20, but misses. At DEX 16 the knight attacks the orc, stunning it for 2 rounds. The orc wanted to grab some keys from a nearby table at DEX 15, but since it is stunned now, this action is not possible.

The next combat round starts, the orc at DEX 20 is still stunned and so the knight attacks at DEX 16 again, hitting it (this is an Easy task now). The Ork needs the rest of this round to recover and so the third combat round starts.

The orc goes first, this time grabbing the keys first, deciding to delay its attack to DEX 15. The knight attacks at DEX 16 and misses. The orc uses the opportunity to slowly make its way back to a door and trying to shut it, blocking the knight the tunnel behind it. This was DEX 15, ending the round.

The fourth round starts, the orc closing the door at DEX 20 while the knight tries to forfeit this intention. This would be an opposed Strength Resistance roll.

[...]

[pansophy]

There is no complication. The orc is stunned on DEX rank 10. The effect lasts a full combat round. The orc may act again in the next combat round starting at DEX rank 10. A full combat round has passed. If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 7, he loses his action in the first combat round. If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 11, he loses his action in the second combat round. It is very simple and precise.

Ian

Yes, it is not complicated, if you have a small battle. But in larger battles with 10 or more combatants it is cumbersome to keep track of all the DEX ranks and round indicators. In these cases, it can get out of hand very fast.

For small battles, this amount of detail can be handled easily.

[pansophy]

The orc is stunned on DEX rank 10. The effect lasts a full combat round. The orc may act again in the next combat round starting at DEX rank 10. A full combat round has passed. [..] If the orc normally acts at DEX rank 11, he loses his action in the second combat round.

If the orc is stunned at DEX 10 and the effect lasts one round, that would mean the orc may attack at DEX 10 the next round again, if it usually attacks at DEX 11.

I mean, the orc would not lose its attack in the second combat round completely, would it? But then, with these interpretation, there would be nearly NO impact for the orc - except of the delayed action - right?

[pansophy]

I think instead of start calculating DEX ranks, one should try the Strike Ranks system. It was build for this amount of detail and clearly handles it in a better and easier way.

As far as 'stunning' goes when using the Strike Rank system, I would judge the d3 'lost rounds' are the next d3 actions. Simple and smooth.

[vagabond]

If the orc is stunned at DEX 10 and the effect lasts one round, that would mean the orc may attack at DEX 10 the next round again, if it usually attacks at DEX 11.

I mean, the orc would not lose its attack in the second combat round completely, would it? But then, with these interpretation, there would be nearly NO impact for the orc - except of the delayed action - right?

Yes, the orc would lose its attack in the second combat round because it would be stunned during its DEX rank. Hence, the 1 round penalty still is effective. Since the orc is stunned, it cannot take advantage of "waiting" to use its attack, normally at DEX rank 11, later in the round.

Ian

[pansophy]

Yes, the orc would lose its attack in the second combat round because it would be stunned during its DEX rank. Hence, the 1 round penalty still is effective. Since the orc is stunned, it cannot take advantage of "waiting" to use its attack, normally at DEX rank 11, later in the round.

Ian

That would leave the orc in a big disadvantage, as it already 'lost' 9 DEX ranks. Penalising it for an other round seems to be unfair to me, if you 'calculate' DEX ranks. Your 'DEX calculation' could now be simplified by saying 'the orc loses its next action' - no calculation needed.