Questions about Sorcery and Demon Summoning/Binding in the Advanced Sorcery book

[KPhan2121]

I've been thinking about using Sorcery as the main power system for an upcoming dark fantasy campaign, however I've only ever used Magic or Super Powers and the implications of their effects on the game are pretty straight forward, but Sorcery looks way more complicated and open ended. Especially with the whole summoning and binding demons/elementals to items to gain access to their skills/abilities. What are the common pitfalls and narrative implications if I include Sorcery in my game?

[Mugen]

I don't have a significative experience with Sorcery, but Demon binding in StormBringer v1 to v4 was notoriously bad for balance between players.

IIRC, the version in BGB was problematic as the cost for summoning creatures didn't take the cost of the abilities, resulting in a 1MP cost, which absurdly low.

Sorcery also has a lot of small spells that won't cause balance issues.

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Mugen said:

 but Demon binding in StormBringer v1 to v4 was notoriously bad for balance between players.

This.

 

It was probably at it worst in SB1 due to the higher starting skills for sorcerors. Later versions (Elric!, SB5, Magic World) toned it down a bit, but generally speaking those with access to sorcery, especially  demon weapons and armor held a significant advantage over those who didn't.  When a sorcerer is doing 7d6 damage with their weapon and the armor is virtually immune to most opponents' weapons, it becomes something of a foregone conclusion.

The fist major implication of this is that PCs had virtually no chance against a powerful sorcerer. IN BRP they fare a bit better as sorcerers aren't quite as powerful, but still, magical weapons and armor that do an extra die damage will make for an uphill battle. 

A second major implication is that that in Stormbringer, to challenge a PC Sorcerer, the GM would need to use otherworldly/supernatural creatures or other sorcerers.  In campaigns most PCs sorcerers ended up with some  other sorcerer (similar to Elric's Theleb Karana) to be a reoccurring foe to provide a challenge. Again, this isn't quite as dominant in BRP, but is still a consideration. It is easy for PCs with demon items to become complacent, arrogant, and overconfident. That can lead them to biting off more than they can chew and not having the time to back away before suffering casualties. Senseless slaughter on NPCs and TPKs become a lot more common. Upping the opposition doesn't really help all that much as it also tends to up the leathiality. It's kinda like what would happen if you handed out submachinguns to the PCs. THey would slaughter most foes until they ran into opponents who also had submachinguns, and then there would be lots od dead characters on both sides of the conflict.

 

A secondary implication is that the high POW requirements for sorcery (16+) makes human sorcerers extremely rare (a 4.63% chance or about one in 22 characters) without some sort of point build method of chargen or racial/cultural modifiers to characteristics. This has an additional side effect of there being a big power jump to the campaign a sorcerer joins a pre-existing group of adventurers.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Chaot]

I love sorcery and summoning and have used it a lot with Elric!/SB5/Corum. I started rewriting it to address some issues I have with summoning, both to streamline it and de-emphasize the how effective item binding is.

As far as spells go, my players often forgot about them. They are generally very niche.

Summoning is insane and the best bang is binding into an item. I wanted to make pacts a more attractive option in gameplay. I did some streamlining and started doing a little balancing. As Mugan and Atgxtg says though, as it stands Summoning introduces a big power gap.

[KPhan2121]

13 hours ago, Mugen said:

I don't have a significative experience with Sorcery, but Demon binding in StormBringer v1 to v4 was notoriously bad for balance between players.

IIRC, the version in BGB was problematic as the cost for summoning creatures didn't take the cost of the abilities, resulting in a 1MP cost, which absurdly low.

Sorcery also has a lot of small spells that won't cause balance issues.

 

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

This.

 

It was probably at it worst in SB1 due to the higher starting skills for sorcerors. Later versions (Elric!, SB5, Magic World) toned it down a bit, but generally speaking those with access to sorcery, especially  demon weapons and armor held a significant advantage over those who didn't.  When a sorcerer is doing 7d6 damage with their weapon and the armor is virtually immune to most opponents' weapons, it becomes something of a foregone conclusion.

The fist major implication of this is that PCs had virtually no chance against a powerful sorcerer. IN BRP they fare a bit better as sorcerers aren't quite as powerful, but still, magical weapons and armor that do an extra die damage will make for an uphill battle. 

A second major implication is that that in Stormbringer, to challenge a PC Sorcerer, the GM would need to use otherworldly/supernatural creatures or other sorcerers.  In campaigns most PCs sorcerers ended up with some  other sorcerer (similar to Elric's Theleb Karana) to be a reoccurring foe to provide a challenge. Again, this isn't quite as dominant in BRP, but is still a consideration. It is easy for PCs with demon items to become complacent, arrogant, and overconfident. That can lead them to biting off more than they can chew and not having the time to back away before suffering casualties. Senseless slaughter on NPCs and TPKs become a lot more common. Upping the opposition doesn't really help all that much as it also tends to up the leathiality. It's kinda like what would happen if you handed out submachinguns to the PCs. THey would slaughter most foes until they ran into opponents who also had submachinguns, and then there would be lots od dead characters on both sides of the conflict.

 

A secondary implication is that the high POW requirements for sorcery (16+) makes human sorcerers extremely rare (a 4.63% chance or about one in 22 characters) without some sort of point build method of chargen or racial/cultural modifiers to characteristics. This has an additional side effect of there being a big power jump to the campaign a sorcerer joins a pre-existing group of adventurers.

Is the solution just to have a game where all of the PCs are sorcerers or at least have equal access to demon items? One of the things I've noticed was that getting a +2D10 weapon or armor only cost 20 magic points. 9 to summon a lesser demon, 10 for Demon Armor or Weapon, and 1 to bind to an item. So already, any two bit sorcerer who's had time to make their first set of weapons and armor should be a nightmare to fight against. Also what's the point of summoning elementals compared to demons? You can bind them to items, but I don't think you can give them abilities like you can with demons.

 

4 hours ago, Chaot said:

I love sorcery and summoning and have used it a lot with Elric!/SB5/Corum. I started rewriting it to address some issues I have with summoning, both to streamline it and de-emphasize the how effective item binding is.

As far as spells go, my players often forgot about them. They are generally very niche.

Summoning is insane and the best bang is binding into an item. I wanted to make pacts a more attractive option in gameplay. I did some streamlining and started doing a little balancing. As Mugan and Atgxtg says though, as it stands Summoning introduces a big power gap.

I'd love to see your homebrews when you've finished it. Sorcerers forming pacts with demons to gain access to their abilities instead of binding sounds way cooler then every sorcerer carrying an armory of demon bound items.

Edited April 3, 2023 by KPhan2121

[Atgxtg]

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

Is the solution

"solution" implies that is is a problem. It might not actually be. It's just a potential pitfall and implications thereof.

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

just to have a game where all of the PCs are sorcerers or at least have equal access to demon items?

 Oh that will tend to happen anyway. Usually the sorceror will outfit friends and allies with demon items, to keep them alive, make them more effective in battle, and to increase "target potential" to the enemy (otherwise the enemy have good incentive to gang up on the sorcerer).

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

One of the things I've noticed was that getting a +2D10 weapon or armor only cost 20 magic points. 9 to summon a lesser demon, 10 for Demon Armor or Weapon, and 1 to bind to an item.

Yes, and that's nothing compared to old Stormbringer where a good sorcerer could summon up a weapon that did an extra 10d6 and whose armor was virtualy immune to non-magical weapons.

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

So already, any two bit sorcerer who's had time to make their first set of weapons and armor should be a nightmare to fight against.

Exactly, and they are worse the earlier the edition you use. It not a bad thing per say, just the way it is and both GMs and players should be aware of it going in. Otherwise there wiull be a nasty surprise when a warrior corners a wizard and his greataxe goes "tink" upon hitting the wizard's silken coat. 

 

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

Also what's the point of summoning elementals compared to demons? You can bind them to items, but I don't think you can give them abilities like you can with demons.

Stormbringer had lesser elemental that had special abilities that were not the same as demon abilities. Plus elementals were not necessarily malevolent the way demons usually were. So alrelemental might be able to fill the sails of a boat to move it, allow one to breathe underwater, or shoot blasts of fire. They could also eliminate each other, which is useful when a sorcerer sends a salamander after a fellow PC

I'd have to take another look at the BGB to see what sort of elementals BRP has, but I bet they have similar abilities.

28 minutes ago, KPhan2121 said:

 Sorcerers forming pacts with demons to gain access to their abilities instead of binding sounds way cooler then every sorcerer carrying an armory of demon bound items.

Just a reminder that demons and elementals don't always have to be bound. A sorcerror can summon up a demon and bargain with it to get it to perform a single task for him before it returns to it's own plane. Elementals were easier in that they didn't have to be bargained with and the one service for a summoning this was the expected relationship. Depending on the POW of the demons you use in your campaign, this could be the norm for your world. For instance, if the average demon has a POW of 5d8 few sorcerers and going to want to risk binding them, so bargain for service would be more common.

[Mugen]

8 hours ago, KPhan2121 said:

I'd love to see your homebrews when you've finished it. Sorcerers forming pacts with demons to gain access to their abilities instead of binding sounds way cooler then every sorcerer carrying an armory of demon bound items.

That's how it works in Elric of Melniboné. You summon a Demon and form a pact with it for as long as you have MPs to give to it.

In this game, binding demons is considered to be a godlike task even the most powerful sorcerer can't accomplish.

[KPhan2121]

12 hours ago, Mugen said:

That's how it works in Elric of Melniboné. You summon a Demon and form a pact with it for as long as you have MPs to give to it.

In this game, binding demons is considered to be a godlike task even the most powerful sorcerer can't accomplish.

I don't have Elric of Melnibone, but are the rules in that game really that different from Advanced Sorcery? And how transferrable is it to BRP? My understanding is that Mongoose radically changed the formula of the BRP-based D100 games.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, KPhan2121 said:

I don't have Elric of Melnibone, but are the rules in that game really that different from Advanced Sorcery? And how transferrable is it to BRP? My understanding is that Mongoose radically changed the formula of the BRP-based D100 games.

It is differernt but you could port it over, if you wanted to. Mongoose RQ is, at best, a mixed bag. IMO, most of the authors appeared to lack an understanding of RQ game mechanics and how the system interconnected (like when they gave the option of doubling weapon damage to restore the leathaity to the game that was removed by other changes made by Mongoose without realizing that doing so would seriously impact the effect of armor and parrying), but Elric of Melnibone was written by Lawrence Whitaker and Pete Nash, who wrote BRP Rome, and who understood the game mechanics. 

The magic system in Elric of Melnibone isn't BRP sorcery though. I wouldn't say it was bad, just different. It is mostly BRP compatible, too, as much of the underlying stats and mechanics are the same, and what isn't can usually be adapted easily enough. 

[Mugen]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It is differernt but you could port it over, if you wanted to. Mongoose RQ is, at best, a mixed bag. IMO, most of the authors appeared to lack an understanding of RQ game mechanics and how the system interconnected (like when they gave the option of doubling weapon damage to restore the leathaity to the game that was removed by other changes made by Mongoose without realizing that doing so would seriously impact the effect of armor and parrying), but Elric of Melnibone was written by Lawrence Whitaker and Pete Nash, who wrote BRP Rome, and who understood the game mechanics.

I was part of the MRQ1 playtest, and it was really not a pleasant experience. But compared to the first draft, the published game was very good, thanks to the help of many veteran players and Steve Perrin (the runic system was from him, but it they published the draft without any modification, they just added spells to runes that had none).

The last playtest version, entirely re-written by Kenneth Hyte, was IMHO a very interesting game. But unfortunately, it was modified by people from Mongoose before publication... The ridiculous double skill check in combat was one if those edits.

However, Elric of Melniboné 2nd edition is a supplement for MRQ2, and don't have most of the MRQ1 problems.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mugen

[Mugen]

16 hours ago, KPhan2121 said:

I don't have Elric of Melnibone, but are the rules in that game really that different from Advanced Sorcery? And how transferrable is it to BRP? My understanding is that Mongoose radically changed the formula of the BRP-based D100 games.

Most of the MRQ drastic changes are in the combat chapter. Weapon damage values are different, and there aren't generic hit points, just hit points per location.

But the summoning rules in EoM allow you to summon creatures fully compatible with BRP, with 7 characteristics and skills.

EoM also have rules for "Runes", a magic system very similar to BRP "magic", with 1 skill per rune/spell abd variable spell effects depending on MP spent.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Mugen

[Atgxtg]

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

I was part of the MRQ1 playtest, and it was really not a pleasant experience.

So I've heard from other playtesters. I've been told that pretty much all of the failing of MRQ1 were spooted and pointed out by the playtesters, but people at Mongoose didn't want to hear it, or I should say one specific person at Mongoose.  I also heard that Matt Sprange told Steven PErrin that he didn't know how to write an RPG, which was incredible stupid on multiple counts. 

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

But compared to the first draft, the published game was very good, thanks to the help of many veteran players and Steve Perrin (the runic system was from him, but it they published the draft without any modification, they just added spells to runes that had none).

I disagree the published game was garbage. How many other RPGs get errated before BEFORE release and which the authors admit was ran inccorectly when revealed at conventions? I think I spent months dealing with angry fans over at the Mongoose forums who didn't understand why people didn't like the game, and that all the dumb rules they were defending had already been errated out of existence by Mongoose. 

Mongoose isn't known for quality rulesets (quite a few players have said whatever the release just wait for the second edtion), but MRQ was probably the worst, most confusing release of an RPG ever.

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

The last playtest version, entirely re-written by Kenneth Hyte, was IMHO a very interesting game. But unfortunately, it was modified by people from Mongoose before publication...

Ken Hite writes good stuff. I wish Steve Perrin would have wrote the game, as he wrote every classic Chasoium RPG  except Pendragon. But then again, if he had Mongoose would have edited it.

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

 

The ridiculous double skill check in combat was one if those edits.

And the first thing errated back out.

 

I think the big problem was that the Mongoose staff were D&D players, not familiar with RQ, and they didn't understand the differences between the game systems, how the RQ rules interacted with each other, and the domino effect caused by changing one rule. For instance, the doubling damage option designed to address the complaints that MRQ combat was a lot "softer" that RQ, would have worked in D&D, where damage only intereacts with hit points, but in RQ, damage also intereacts with armor and parry weapons. Likewise, magical weapons vs. resistant creatures works differently, and we all know how giving Orthath the Chaos worked. In D&D it makes sense as aw and Chaos are distinct from Good and Evil and have been since AD&D. Storms being unpredicable would be considered Chaotic Neutral in D&D terms. But in Gloranthan terms Chaos has a entirely different meaning. So all thie changes that made sense from a D&D point of view created problems and Mongoose's lack of understanding of RQ mean't that whenever Mongoose tried to fix some problem that they had introduced, the broke other aspects of the game.

A somewhat similar thing seemed to have happened with the editing of 5th edition Pendragon. There were several edits that looked like they were designed to prevent D&D power gaming but that contradicted all previous editions of the game and really nerfed the game. Fortunately when we pointed them out to Greg he overruled them and said that the book was wrong and the old rules were correct. White Wolf even made a 5.1 edition to fix it too. So it looks like it was just a honest mistake by someone who meant well but didn't understand the game. 

 

9 hours ago, Mugen said:

However, Elric of Melniboné 2nd edition is a supplement for MRQ2, and don't have most of the MRQ1 problems.

Yeah, Mongoose staff stayed away from it, and Loz and Pete do good work. While I prefer the BRP/RQ rules over the MRQ2/Legend rules and Mythas rules, I don't loath either of those rulesets. MRQ1 still angers me all these year later. I think it is the only  RPG book I sold off for store credit. 

[Atgxtg]

On 4/5/2023 at 11:22 AM, Atgxtg said:

 

Accidental double post

Edited April 6, 2023 by Atgxtg