A battle for the ages... (rule question, with a wrapping of fantasy)

[Lloyd Dupont]

After going through the demon war, and the succession coup by the infamous black knight that damn bastard (he is a royal bastard, literally, out of wedlock), so many conflicts.. you character is finally a sword saint! with 150% in Sword skill!

Finally, it's time to confront your nemesis! The earl of darkwater! That blackened forsaken soul!

150%, hey 3 attacks at 50%, 50%, 50%, as per rule for multi attack.

Unfortunately, and unknowingly to you, the damn earl is also a sword saint with 150%, so he parries at 150%, 120%, 90% as per rule for multiple reactions.

Now... that strike me as not ideal.... How do sword masters with 150% fight each other? Build-in rules don't seem quite right....

Remark, so far I am think to add Mythras rule here - one with skill over 100% can simply reduce his skill and the skill of his opponent by the value above 100%. But that's Mythras for you here. I am asking how BRP veteran handle that.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[NickMiddleton]

Against a similarly skilled opponent, a master swordsman wouldn’t split their attack. That rule is for emulating Elric! / Conan leaping at three average guardsman on watch and cutting them down before they fully realise what they are facing. Against a fellow master it’s a finely balanced exchange of blows at full skill, until one rolls a substantially better success than their opponent.

This is a longstanding feature / bug of baseline BRP: “even” contests (especially with very high skilled opponents with minimal chances of failure or fumble) are finally balanced stalemates, until one side edges an advantage. I looked at some tweaks and alternatives in the arête chapter of Advanced Sorcery and many other BRP games have taken other approaches. But the way the base system is built, evenly matched contests often need outside forces to influence things to bring things to a rapid conclusion: as I said, to some a bug, to some a feature. In BRP, even sainted sword masters approach combat with caution, and should do all they can to stack odds in their favour…

[Lloyd Dupont]

Ha yes.. you're right!
mmm... something to think about.. thanks! 🙂

[Atgxtg]

Too other points:

1.  In old RQ/BRP you couldn't split you attack against a single opponent as any attack was considered to be a combination of maneuver with the final attack % being the combined chance of success.
2. Stombringer has a riposte rule that was a companion to the multiple parry rule - if a master (90%+) successfully parried an attack you could then launch a riposte attack at cumulative -30% to skill. This lead to fights between masters being very cinematic with several back and forth attacks.  Using your example above those 150%/120%/90% parries would be alternated with attacks. IN such a situation it would be some flurries of activity with up to ten attacks in a round!

[Lloyd Dupont]

Ha! Legendary forum user Atgxtg strikes again!

Thanks for the reminder (I did read about that once, sometime, somewhere), that is good! 🙂

[NickMiddleton]

Annoyingly, the riposte rule from Stormbringer 5e was omitted from the BGB, so Jason had to publish his take in a thread here... and it looks like it failed to make the UGE as well 🙄... 🤣

 

 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, NickMiddleton said:

Annoyingly, the riposte rule from Stormbringer 5e was omitted from the BGB, so Jason had to publish his take in a thread here... and it looks like it failed to make the UGE as well 🙄... 🤣

I think the problem with the riposte in BGB is that, like most of the other bit cobbled together in the BGB, it's not entirely compatible with all the other bits. In Stormbringer 1-4 character skills were capped at 100% plus modifiers (including demon sword modifiers). So in SB you never got ore that two or three ripostes, and that kept ripostes in check, especially when you consider the diminishing chases of a success combined with the increasing chances of a fumble. At that time only Runelords in RQ could surpass  100%, and RQ had it one rule for multiple attacks, splitting attacks.

So all this together could be too much. But that is the thing with BRP, a GM has to not only select what they want from it, but know what not to take from it. Maybe they should do up some of the common "option packages" to show how it was done. One package could be similar to Strombringer with ripostes, multiple parries, and sorcery/summoning; another similar to RQ2;  a third based on a four color comic book setting, and so on.  

 

Still, if I were going to run a campaign where I wanted a lot of cinematic swordplay, say a pirate game or Star Wars, I'd consider the multiple parry/riposte rules. I might even adust the default -30% to another number depending on the weapon. Maybe rapiers are only -20%? Fencing foils -10%, Mauls -40 or even -50%?

  

 

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hey.. a variable per weapon malus seems like a good idea! 🙂
 

[Mugen]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:45 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Remark, so far I am think to add Mythras rule here - one with skill over 100% can simply reduce his skill and the skill of his opponent by the value above 100%. But that's Mythras for you here. I am asking how BRP veteran handle that.

French game Reve de Dragon (which was translated into Reve, the Dream Ouroboros) allows an attacker to reduce his own skill to give a similar modifier to the defender 

As for myself, I'd just use the skill opposition system. I'd be in favor of Pendragon -high roll wins and skill above 100 is added to the roll-, but using the formula for Resistance Table (50+difference in skill) could work too.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hey.. a variable per weapon malus seems like a good idea! 🙂
 

Yes, but it means one more weapon stat to keep track of. Basically a Riposte rating. Musing along those lines.

• Magical weapon might even be able to be boosted somehow. For instance Demon Weapon with a  high DEX compared to thier ENC could get the bonus, or maybe it would be a power with a flat cost. 
• If ripostes are allowed by everyone, not just masters, the way multiple parries are, then mastery could bump up the reaction by a step (10%).
• Lacking the proper STR/DEX for a weapon could increase the penalty. 
• A variation of it would be not to rate the weapons but have it come down to the wielder's STR/DEX scores in comparison to the weapon's ENC. Say if a character's STR and DEX both exceed the requirement STR/DEX by more than the weapon ENC it is quick (-20%), and if neither do it is slow (-40%). That way a strong character could swing a heavier weapon faster.It also would save us the trouble of figuring out the modifier for trees and other giant sized weapons.. 

[Mugen]

5 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hey.. a variable per weapon malus seems like a good idea! 🙂
 

French game Légendes (yes, another one...) had something similar.

There were no action rounds in Légendes. Instead, each action took a variable number of seconds to resolve. For a common man, a normal attack took 6 seconds, a quick attack or a normal defense took 3 seconds, and a quick defense required no time at all.

Quick actions gave you negative modifiers to your skill. Lighter weapons, with a good speed factor gave you smaller modifiers than Heavy weapons, with bad speed factor.

A very quick character using light weapons could perform 3 quick attacks, with negative modifiers, while a common man could only do 1 normai attack in the same time.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Mugen

[Atgxtg]

Hmm, another possible option might be to do what Sangine did with their 1st edtion Usagi Yojimbo RPG. Basically instead of reducing the multiaction peanlty, it could (sometimes) be avoided with a higher success level.

In UY they had critical similar to the specials in Mythras, and it was possible to get more than one critical in a action (multiple dice vs. target number, each die that succeeds after the first is a critical). Like in BRP different weapons had different special available. 

One possible critical for some weapons was rebound, which let you keep you parry, and another was the easy riposte, which let you keep your counter attack. I could both of those being in BRP as a way to avoid the -30% cumulative penalty.  For example someone with a rapier who makes a special parry could get a ripsote without the -30% penalty.  

UY had a lot of cool crticals that could make good specials in BRP or (even a bit fit) Mythras. Things like trip, crush, impale, and disarm were all among the choices. Some crtis  were tied to specific weapons, the way impale is in BRP, but others could be learned an added to a characters options in combat. For example there was one for staves that allowed them to be used like two truncheons or as a long pole weapon. In BRP terms it would be like being able to make two attacks at 1D6+db instead of one atttack at 1D8+db, or maybe just a extra attack on a special. 

Some crits were only usable in response to the opponent's actions (like the riposte) and so you had to be careful not to walk into some tactic that the opponent was really good at. It made fights more interesting as you needed to be cautious at first while you tried to figure out your opponent's fighting style. I remember a monk character who was a master of all sorts of empty hand crticials, but that meant no one would want to get in close combat and so would try to stay at sword's length from me. Therefore I grabbed a spear and a couple of polearm related crtis designed to keep opponents at bay and poke at them from outside their weapon's reach. My idea was that opponents would get annoyed at my striking from a distance and back pedaling, so they'd rush me,  allowing me to use a crit where I could drop my spear, disarm them, and use art my unarmed combat stuff. 

[Lloyd Dupont]

Atgxtg (or anyone really) I need some additional tips here...

I was thinking to do my upcoming campaign with classic fantasy (mythras edition), but after polling my players, I will go with BRP + home made perks and magic system 

Anyway, what's the question, ha yes, I feel hesitant to change the BRP combat system, but I really like custom special effects. And ..... I could add some additional attack and defence option with perks... But also I would like to have more free option, not sure not handle that!

Although I am already thinking to change the piercing and blunt weapon specials to armor piercing 4, and +D6 damage, respectively.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont