Some noob questions regarding Mythos Tomes and Becoming a believer...

[Keeper Bolog]

Hi, it's your boy the new guy who asks stupid questions.

I would like some clarification from people that have played the game more than I do. In 7e CoC, probably exactly like older editions, the players can find Mythos Tomes, I have some questions about this:

1. Initial Reading of a Mythos Tomes grants the players knowledge of spells of course, this is clear, but does this reveal all the spells the book contains to the players or just what the Keeper deems necessary/wants to give them? Spells like Contact/Summon Azathoth could probably be an instant TPK/campaign ender if cast, so such spells would likely be eliminated in campaign play.
    
2. A Full Reading seems to only give 2 benefits: More Cthulhu Mythos points and using the Book as Reference Material for various Mythos topics. (On this note, how do you decide if a certain book contains certain mythos information the players wants to search for? Based on the title perhaps and summary?) Are there other benefits to a Full Reading I have missed? Not that these 2 benefits arent enough, I just want to know if I understood all of the mechanics.
    
3. All Mythos books have summaries, but they mostly seem to have information only an expert could know, like how many copies there are, what year it's from and so on. Do you guys basically just ad-lib the summary if the players manage to read the Tome on their own, omitting stuff like year of publishing and such unless they somehow find that bit out? Do you also add plot relevant stuff to Tomes they find to keep the game moving? For example in Masks of Nyarlathothep they can find a certain Mythos Tome (life as a god I think) that describes plot relevant stuff, but said relevant stuff isn't described in much detail in that "mythos tome summary" of said book so it just leaves the Keeper to add what they think is important.
    
4. Now the interesting bit, Becoming a Believer. I do not quite understand if a player can disbelieve only the things he read in the book or if he saw a Ghoul 10 sessions ago he now by default believes all Mythos Tomes he reads? Up until now I have played it as such: If my players saw a Mythos Monster they are automatically Believers whenever they read a Mythos Tome...but this seems to just eliminate this 'non believer mechanic' in the first sessions before ever finding such a book, so I think I am doing it wrong and players should choose if they believe or not on a book by book basis? What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you very much for reading and your answers!

[andyl]

1 hour ago, Keeper Bolog said:

Hi, it's your boy the new guy who asks stupid questions.

I would like some clarification from people that have played the game more than I do. In 7e CoC, probably exactly like older editions, the players can find Mythos Tomes, I have some questions about this:

1. Initial Reading of a Mythos Tomes grants the players knowledge of spells of course, this is clear, but does this reveal all the spells the book contains to the players or just what the Keeper deems necessary/wants to give them? Spells like Contact/Summon Azathoth could probably be an instant TPK/campaign ender if cast, so such spells would likely be eliminated in campaign play.
    
2. A Full Reading seems to only give 2 benefits: More Cthulhu Mythos points and using the Book as Reference Material for various Mythos topics. (On this note, how do you decide if a certain book contains certain mythos information the players wants to search for? Based on the title perhaps and summary?) Are there other benefits to a Full Reading I have missed? Not that these 2 benefits arent enough, I just want to know if I understood all of the mechanics.
    
3. All Mythos books have summaries, but they mostly seem to have information only an expert could know, like how many copies there are, what year it's from and so on. Do you guys basically just ad-lib the summary if the players manage to read the Tome on their own, omitting stuff like year of publishing and such unless they somehow find that bit out? Do you also add plot relevant stuff to Tomes they find to keep the game moving? For example in Masks of Nyarlathothep they can find a certain Mythos Tome (life as a god I think) that describes plot relevant stuff, but said relevant stuff isn't described in much detail in that "mythos tome summary" of said book so it just leaves the Keeper to add what they think is important.
    
4. Now the interesting bit, Becoming a Believer. I do not quite understand if a player can disbelieve only the things he read in the book or if he saw a Ghoul 10 sessions ago he now by default believes all Mythos Tomes he reads? Up until now I have played it as such: If my players saw a Mythos Monster they are automatically Believers whenever they read a Mythos Tome...but this seems to just eliminate this 'non believer mechanic' in the first sessions before ever finding such a book, so I think I am doing it wrong and players should choose if they believe or not on a book by book basis? What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you very much for reading and your answers!

1.  Firstly you should probably use something other than the official spell name.  However reading a tome gives some knowledge of what is in the tome.  You still have to study the spell to learn how to cast it.  That could take hours, days or even weeks depending on the Keeper.  On the initial reading you realise there the number of spells in the tome and maybe names.

2.  It is quite clear on page 175 with what rolls you make to see if the information is there.  As it says the Keeper decides if the information is clear and understandable or somewhat allusive or obscured.

3. Some characters might know (or think they know) some of that stuff - number of copies, where it was printed. Most will not.  You are obviously not meant to read out the description of the tome - as for some it says things like "Questionable translation of ..."  For me when characters read mythos tomes they want the Cthulhu Mythos skill (they are not too keen on the SAN loss though), or they want spells, or they want to use it to see if there is knowledge in it about some monster or situation.  That latter bit is up to the Keeper to come up with - either on the fly or when prepping the scenario.  I generally write about a couple of paragraphs giving a bit of an overview - the cover, the size, the paper, printed or handwriting, what the handwriting looks like, any stains - especially blood, if it has pictures, and then some vague description about what it contains.  If I have added plot specific information to the tome that will definitely be revealed on a full reading.

4. The Becoming a Believer is really for the other way around.  You read a book and think "these are all fanciful stories, they are not real" then you see a Deep One (or a Ghoul) and you realise that they are real.  If you had already seen the Deep One and then read about it in a tome - then you are more likely to say "this explains so much ...".

[Keeper Bolog]

52 minutes ago, andyl said:

1.  Firstly you should probably use something other than the official spell name.  However reading a tome gives some knowledge of what is in the tome.  You still have to study the spell to learn how to cast it.  That could take hours, days or even weeks depending on the Keeper.  On the initial reading you realise there the number of spells in the tome and maybe names.

Yea it's clear, I always try to use the "alternate spell names" sometimes one spell name gets revealed but hey its a game 😛

4. The Becoming a Believer is really for the other way around.  You read a book and think "these are all fanciful stories, they are not real" then you see a Deep One (or a Ghoul) and you realise that they are real.  If you had already seen the Deep One and then read about it in a tome - then you are more likely to say "this explains so much ...".

Oh ok, so that's the way I ran it up until now, so I guess I understood it corectly! I guess I can also play it like: If PC A reads about nightgaunts but hasn't encountered Nightgaunts yet, only Ghouls and other things, he can choose not to believe it...altough it's kinda dumb to believe ghouls exist but not nightgaunts.

 

[Grimmshade]

3 hours ago, Keeper Bolog said:

Hi, it's your boy the new guy who asks stupid questions.

I would like some clarification from people that have played the game more than I do. In 7e CoC, probably exactly like older editions, the players can find Mythos Tomes, I have some questions about this:

1. Initial Reading of a Mythos Tomes grants the players knowledge of spells of course, this is clear, but does this reveal all the spells the book contains to the players or just what the Keeper deems necessary/wants to give them? Spells like Contact/Summon Azathoth could probably be an instant TPK/campaign ender if cast, so such spells would likely be eliminated in campaign play.
    
2. A Full Reading seems to only give 2 benefits: More Cthulhu Mythos points and using the Book as Reference Material for various Mythos topics. (On this note, how do you decide if a certain book contains certain mythos information the players wants to search for? Based on the title perhaps and summary?) Are there other benefits to a Full Reading I have missed? Not that these 2 benefits arent enough, I just want to know if I understood all of the mechanics.
    
3. All Mythos books have summaries, but they mostly seem to have information only an expert could know, like how many copies there are, what year it's from and so on. Do you guys basically just ad-lib the summary if the players manage to read the Tome on their own, omitting stuff like year of publishing and such unless they somehow find that bit out? Do you also add plot relevant stuff to Tomes they find to keep the game moving? For example in Masks of Nyarlathothep they can find a certain Mythos Tome (life as a god I think) that describes plot relevant stuff, but said relevant stuff isn't described in much detail in that "mythos tome summary" of said book so it just leaves the Keeper to add what they think is important.
    
4. Now the interesting bit, Becoming a Believer. I do not quite understand if a player can disbelieve only the things he read in the book or if he saw a Ghoul 10 sessions ago he now by default believes all Mythos Tomes he reads? Up until now I have played it as such: If my players saw a Mythos Monster they are automatically Believers whenever they read a Mythos Tome...but this seems to just eliminate this 'non believer mechanic' in the first sessions before ever finding such a book, so I think I am doing it wrong and players should choose if they believe or not on a book by book basis? What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you very much for reading and your answers!

I've been playing since 1st edition, so I'll give this a go! (Doesn't mean I'm 100% correct!)

Skimming always gives all available spells in my games. I run more pulp style games generally, but most of the big spells area going to be pretty hard for a PC to just instantly pull off anyway, and most PC's shouldn't want to summon Azathoth. 

A full reading can give other benefits is your decide it does. Recommended benefits include relevant skill improvement checks, etc.  The old 5e Keeper's Compendium has some excellent examples of this. 

In 7e, it doesn't really matter what is contained in a tome. If the player makes the roll, they get the info from the book. It's basically the same explanation as Cthulhu Mythos in general. A PC goes insane from some a Deep One. They gain 5% Cthulhu Mythos from the experience. They see tracks from a Ghoul and make the 5% Mythos roll and know some info about ghouls, with the explanation being that once your mind is open to the Mythos your have access to forgotten/ forbidden knowledge.

If a tome was known for sure to have the info the investigator was looking for, I'd probably just let them have the info after the study. 

As for tomes in general, I give as much little details as possible, as it all adds to the Lovecraft-iness of the experience.

Once an Investigator sees a Mythos monster and loses sanity from it, they can't really be a non-believer any more. Non-believer is basically a person who reads Mythos books and thinks they are all interesting fantasy, until they see a Dark Young in the forest and all their past reading comes crashing down on them. 

 

Hope all that helps!

[Keeper Bolog]

34 minutes ago, Grimmshade said:

Thanks for your replies!

Quote

Once an Investigator sees a Mythos monster and loses sanity from it, they can't really be a non-believer any more. Non-believer is basically a person who reads Mythos books and thinks they are all interesting fantasy, until they see a Dark Young in the forest and all their past reading comes crashing down on them. 

Yea this is basically how i handle it , wanted to be sure since it seems that more often than not the players instantly become believers, at least with the prewritten scenarios I ran up until now they always encountered some weird monsters before having the chance to read a mythos tome

 

 

 

[Grimmshade]

2 hours ago, Keeper Bolog said:

 

With pre written scenarios this is definitely the case. 

I've always wanted to run a slow burn campaign with the PC's inheriting a house, finding tomes, reading times, and unlocking puzzles over the course of a year or so game time. Non believer would work great in that situation. 

I've had it with week in a few scenarios where the PC's find tomes and skim them as non believers, and then find the monster. 

[EricW]

You can believe without wanting, so the characters in the movie “Warlock” believed in the magic of the Warlock, but didn’t also want to be warlocks.

Of course, not everyone reads such books and is repulsed by what they read.

HP Lovecraft wrote “The history of the Necronomicon”, that the book was outlawed as heretical because people who read it attempted monstrous experiments.

There’s a great movie “Dagon”, which is a great intro the Cthulhu insanity and belief.

 

Edited August 11, 2023 by EricW

[SunlessNick]

On 8/3/2023 at 9:56 AM, Keeper Bolog said:

Initial Reading of a Mythos Tomes grants the players knowledge of spells of course, this is clear, but does this reveal all the spells the book contains to the players or just what the Keeper deems necessary/wants to give them?

My suggestion would be that the initial reading reveals the presence of most or all spells the book contains, but learning to cast them would take more comprehensive study, unless you've happened to come across a book designed for teaching spells.  (Of the main ones listed in the core, only True Magick might possibly a candidate for that).

On 8/3/2023 at 9:56 AM, Keeper Bolog said:

I do not quite understand if a player can disbelieve only the things he read in the book or if he saw a Ghoul 10 sessions ago he now by default believes all Mythos Tomes he reads?

That's how it works by default, for the same reason that the Cthulhu Mythos skill still works even if none of the books you've read would logically mention the entity at hand.  The default framing of the skill is insight rather than raw information.  I sometimes have my own issues with that framing, but the only way round it would be have multiple Mythos skills and rate books by what they provide in each - it might be worth doing, but it'll be a lot of bookkeeping.

[Keeper Bolog]

8 hours ago, SunlessNick said:

My suggestion would be that the initial reading reveals the presence of most or all spells the book contains, but learning to cast them would take more comprehensive study, unless you've happened to come across a book designed for teaching spells.  (Of the main ones listed in the core, only True Magick might possibly a candidate for that).

I like this, Thanks!

This also gives more use to the further reading of Mythos Tomes, because after the Initial Reading you don't really care about the Mythos Tome unless 1. you want more mythos points or 2. you want to use it as reference, something usually that other NPCs or Library Uses can also handle unless you specifically hide things inside Mythos Tomes which imo is bad design locking things behind skills...

I already decided to only tell my players what spells I realistically want them to have when they have an initial reading. Stuff like Call Azzatoth, that is basically a campaign-ender if you call the god to your location, will not be revealed because it doesn't make sense in a campaign like Masks of Nyarlathothep to call Azzatoth... (just an example)