Brand New Gods

[ZedAlpha]

As I've said in a few other threads today, I'm probably going to be trying to run a FATE Core game set in Glorantha. One thing I was wondering was how much space there is in Glorantha for a group to make up new gods for their version of the setting, and if so, what sort of considerations people would recommend taking into account before/during doing so?

Also, has anyone done this for their own tables? How did it shake out?

I've had this done once before with a previous group, but we didn't go that in-depth with it: one of my players made up Takakia, Goddess of Moss, a very minor Earth-goddess who had a grand total of one tiny out-of-the-way shrine in Nochet. We didn't make up any real myths for her or tenets of her religion, though, just the name and the purview.

[Richard S.]

YGMV, you've got as much space as you need. If you don't want to radically interfere with canon, it's very easy to just set up a new god as a regional subcult or associate of another, like the one in the dragon of thunder hills. Or make them a spirit cult, there's room for a nearly infinite variety of those.

Back in my first RQ2 campaign we introduced a "god of luck" named Mora, who nowadays I'm pretty sure was just Eurmal. He just showed up to the players, said he was a long forgotten god seeking new worshipers, and gave them a sacred golden D6 through which he could talk to them. It also let them reroll some checks, though idr which or how often. They played along as his "priests", but nothing much came of it I'm afraid.

[ZedAlpha]

oh, that really works. I could see Eurmali and Moraite god-talkers arguing with each other over which god is the "real" one.

[John Biles]

Pretty much every pantheon has room to grow if you think the deity's important enough to actually be worshiped.

Quoting RuneQuest Glorantha, p. 269.

Classes of Cults
Cults may be divided into three classes, depending on how
widely worshiped the god is and how powerful it is.
These are interrelated factors, as a god draws power from
being worshiped.
The first and most important type of cult is that of a
major deity. The major deities of Glorantha include the
Seven Lightbringers, as well as many others. These gods
usually have subsidiary deities associated with them and
their cults have access to a broad array of Rune spells. One
example of this sort is the cult of Orlanth in Dragon Pass.
A major cult like this has more than a half-million wor-
shipers and a large hierarchy with many temples. They are
quite formalized, and shamans have little to do with them.
The second type of deity is a medium-powered deity,
with anywhere from fifty thousand to five hundred thousand
worshipers. There are usually no associated minor deities.
The cult of Waha is an example of this type.
The third class of cult is composed of minor deities,
subsidiary deities such as mentioned above, and powerful
spirits that have not managed to make the jump to godhood.
Numerous cults to local heroes and spirits are examples of
this class of cult

 

The worshippers listed above are for a diety's entire cult across Glorantha; actual sites of worship don't require that many people, but the more worshippers at a given shrine, the more a deity can do for worshipers there.  And a community can only support so many temples.

 

 

[ZedAlpha]

alright, cool. I take it that by that logic if I wanted to even make up an entire new pantheon for a specific region or one-off people, as long as it didn't steal too much narrative thunder from the existing stuff the players might use, and felt right to exist in the narrative, then that'd also be okay?

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

alright, cool. I take it that by that logic if I wanted to even make up an entire new pantheon for a specific region or one-off people, as long as it didn't steal too much narrative thunder from the existing stuff the players might use, and felt right to exist in the narrative, then that'd also be okay?

If you want to keep it RQG canon friendly that might be a little much, if by new pantheon you mean entirely new gods and not just variations on the current major ones. You could maybe pull it off if they're like the Praxians and their gods are only really widely worshiped within that society, being seen as very minor or subservient elsewhere, but it'd be very difficult to introduce cosmic peers to the likes of Orlanth or Yelm.

[ZedAlpha]

yeah, i was more just meaning regional gods that are important in very specific places, not worldwide phenomenal cosmic powers on the scale of the Lightbringers.

[Richard S.]

Do you mind giving some examples/ideas? I like the idea, I just don't think I can give much feedback besides "if you think it fits" right now.

[ZedAlpha]

Yeah, no problem. Specifically I had an idea to crib the general Zhalfir concept from Magic the Gathering (tl;dr: Zhalfir was a continent in one of Magic's worlds that was zapped into its own time bubble pocket universe to save it from a horrific multiversal threat) and have a sort of lost island that just pops up out of nowhere, somehow being locked away from the rest of Glorantha since the God Time.

Don't want to get too much into the story I have kicking around my head that relates to that, but the basic idea according to my rough notes is that the inhabitants (maybe a few thousand people living in a very small mostly-ruined city and a few fishing villages) worship:

• A deified ancestor who was the First Whaler or First Fisherman, a la Hyalor being the First Rider,
• A Water deity that might be related to Magasta that was the First Whaler/Fisherman's spouse
• A God of Shipbuilding
• A local craftsman god (probably First Whaler's child) who specializes in scrimshaw and doubles as a local god of writing and/or art
• A god of timekeeping--as in marking the tides and the time of day--whose priests probably locked the island away in the first place to escape the Great Darkness
• And a god of the wild, dangerous interior of the island, probably associated with wild boars or terror birds.

I could probably go into more detail, but that's the basic outline. I had an idea for a small group of gods who are very important in just this island, who suddenly find themselves back in the world with a small group of worshippers, and might be willing to bless weirdo outsiders who agree to spread word of them to the mainland.

Of course if there are any already existing gods that can handle this, then I might just go with that instead.

[ZedAlpha]

That was the biggest idea I had specifically, but hearing "if you think it fits" is really encouraging, so thanks!

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

Yeah, no problem. Specifically I had an idea to crib the general Zhalfir concept from Magic the Gathering (tl;dr: Zhalfir was a continent in one of Magic's worlds that was zapped into its own time bubble pocket universe to save it from a horrific multiversal threat) and have a sort of lost island that just pops up out of nowhere, somehow being locked away from the rest of Glorantha since the God Time.

There's definitely room for lost islands, even floating ones. Kylerela is the most famous example for one that's both:

"An island is known to be floating upon the oceans of Glorantha. It is called Kylerela, or the land of Kylera, a daughter of the earth who was banished from her mother’s body when she was discovered to be bearing an incarnation of Trickster. Gata commanded an abortion, Kylera refused, and fled to the seas who supported her with love. The island is a weird one, with strange laws and unusual features, like the Singing Mountain, the Violet Forest, the Canals of Eroticism and the City Without Food or Sin. Some say it is now lost in Kahar’s Sea of Fog, while others say it is merely invisible and might be found anyplace." (GtG p643)

You don't have to use that one of course - it's got its own myths and mysteries - but it sets a useful precedent that there might be other lost lands floating around.

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

 

Don't want to get too much into the story I have kicking around my head that relates to that, but the basic idea according to my rough notes is that the inhabitants (maybe a few thousand people living in a very small mostly-ruined city and a few fishing villages) worship:

• A deified ancestor who was the First Whaler or First Fisherman, a la Hyalor being the First Rider,
• A Water deity that might be related to Magasta that was the First Whaler/Fisherman's spouse
• A God of Shipbuilding
• A local craftsman god (probably First Whaler's child) who specializes in scrimshaw and doubles as a local god of writing and/or art
• A god of timekeeping--as in marking the tides and the time of day--whose priests probably locked the island away in the first place to escape the Great Darkness
• And a god of the wild, dangerous interior of the island, probably associated with wild boars or terror birds.

Okay, the idea that gives me is of an ancestor worship tradition of the Fisherman and his spouse, with an associate relationship with Magasta. The fisherman had three sons, who taught the three arts of boatbuilding, scrimshaw, and timekeeping, to help them survive in the wild oceans of the darkness, and their cults function as guilds for their respective crafts. The land goddess of the island was terribly wounded in the darkness and grew hostile towards any "invaders", and now her priests live on the outside of society and constantly work to propitiate the goddess, though they too become grim and solitary. Perhaps their separation from the world during the darkness is also why they only worship this small pantheon, their connections to the greater gods being lost, and with no Theyalan missionaries afterwards to help reconnect them.

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

I could probably go into more detail, but that's the basic outline. I had an idea for a small group of gods who are very important in just this island, who suddenly find themselves back in the world with a small group of worshippers, and might be willing to bless weirdo outsiders who agree to spread word of them to the mainland.

Gloranthan gods don't really try and proselytize, save for the red goddess. Their worshipers might, if they care about the outside world, but I don't think their gods as described would be terribly useful elsewhere, especially the boatbuilder since Dormal has a monopoly on that.

1 hour ago, ZedAlpha said:

Of course if there are any already existing gods that can handle this, then I might just go with that instead.

Unfortunately we can't say for sure since the sea pantheon book isn't scheduled for another few months, but I think your idea is fine, especially since they all seem like relatively local cults. They make sense for a small, survivalist community that probably doesn't like the big powers of the world knocking at their doors.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Richard S.

[ZedAlpha]

Yeah, I wanted to come up with a very small group of gods who the players have to figure out the Runic implications of to deal with. I figure First Whaler would be Water, Man, and Mastery, his spouse would probably be Water/Life/Beasts, Scrimshaw Child would probably be Truth/Water/Communication, and so on.

[g33k]

First off:  YGWV, Your Glorantha Will Vary.  Don't feel like "canon" is a straightjacket at your table (it's only a straightjacket for those drawing a paycheck from Chaosium).

n.b. "Dormal" is the boatbuilder's god, and likely a good link into broader Gloranthan pantheons & lore.

I'd also look to Foundchild, the hunters' god, and explicitly cast your First Fisherman / First Whaler in similar direction.

You likely want explicit stories & myths around the Triolini, Waertagi, etc; explanations for why the islanders haven't been decimated by Wolf Pirates; etc etc etc... it's not like the seas of Glorantha have never had any attention over the decades...  There's a lot of readymade content for you to use (or discard, if you'd rather).

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, ZedAlpha said:

Yeah, no problem. Specifically I had an idea to crib the general Zhalfir concept from Magic the Gathering (tl;dr: Zhalfir was a continent in one of Magic's worlds that was zapped into its own time bubble pocket universe to save it from a horrific multiversal threat) and have a sort of lost island that just pops up out of nowhere, somehow being locked away from the rest of Glorantha since the God Time.

Don't want to get too much into the story I have kicking around my head that relates to that, but the basic idea according to my rough notes is that the inhabitants (maybe a few thousand people living in a very small mostly-ruined city and a few fishing villages) worship:

• A deified ancestor who was the First Whaler or First Fisherman, a la Hyalor being the First Rider,
• A Water deity that might be related to Magasta that was the First Whaler/Fisherman's spouse
• A God of Shipbuilding
• A local craftsman god (probably First Whaler's child) who specializes in scrimshaw and doubles as a local god of writing and/or art
• A god of timekeeping--as in marking the tides and the time of day--whose priests probably locked the island away in the first place to escape the Great Darkness
• And a god of the wild, dangerous interior of the island, probably associated with wild boars or terror birds.

I could probably go into more detail, but that's the basic outline. I had an idea for a small group of gods who are very important in just this island, who suddenly find themselves back in the world with a small group of worshippers, and might be willing to bless weirdo outsiders who agree to spread word of them to the mainland.

Of course if there are any already existing gods that can handle this, then I might just go with that instead.

First idea: The deified ancestor enabled them to finally break out by somehow learning Dromal's sea-openng rites and passing them on.

Second idea:  The water diety was a mermaid who married the First Whaler, probably after saving him at sea.  Her cult would be the local extension of whoever merfolk worship.

Third Idea:  Perhaps the craftsman god who also does writing is linked to Lhankhor Mhy. 

Fourth thought:  Perhaps the priests of the timekeeping god locked the island away to keep the god of the wild from *escaping*.  But now the First Whaler is tired of sailing around the same tiny sea and found a way out because that's what Heroes do.

 

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, John Biles said:

...

Third Idea:  Perhaps the craftsman god who also does writing is linked to Lhankhor Mhy. 

...

A lost child of LM who went to sea?
Maybe getting trapped on the island by the Closing, or by the Darkness, or what-have-you

[ZedAlpha]

I was thinking this island has been trapped in a time bubble since the Great Darkness and only recently reappeared in the world, hence why they have their own boatbuilding god who isn't Dormal--who's rather recent, right? That also explains why they haven't been destroyed by the Wolf Pirates in all that time. Although now, that's going to absolutely be a risk, and probably why the PCs are heading there.

And as far as why the island popped back into Glorantha, I'm not entirely sure but I've got some bare ideas. Maybe the island was isolated during the Darkness by some sort of desperate ritual by the Tide-Watching timekeeping god that went horribly right, and then however many generations later in their little pocket dimension, someone found a way to reverse it.

I'm not sure I want the gods of this little island to be explicitly related to anyone except maybe Magasta, but I like the idea of similarities being found between them, the same way a lot of Golden Age/Great Darkness cultures had very similar gods and goddesses that sorta flattened out into the same few gods over time after the Dawn.

But I really like the idea that Magasta's daughter was a mermaid who saved him at sea. I like the idea of her being referred to as the Giving Tide, who brings driftwood and allows fishing vessels to leave and return safely.

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Yeah, I wanted to come up with a very small group of gods who the players have to figure out the Runic implications of to deal with. I figure First Whaler would be Water, Man, and Mastery, his spouse would probably be Water/Life/Beasts, Scrimshaw Child would probably be Truth/Water/Communication, and so on.

I'd keep them to two runes at most, maybe even just one for the children. 3+ runes are usually reserved for big gods with lots of powers. My suggestions:

• First Whaler & Sea Mother - Man, Spirit, Water, Beast. As a combined cult they can have more associations than normal. I recommend Spirit because of the ancestral aspect. If you want to keep their cults separate:
  • First Whaler - Man, Death. An ancestor and a hunter. I don't recommend Mastery as that's the rune of capital-H Heroes.
  • Sea Mother - Water, Beast. Suggests a relationship to Tholaina, goddess of sea animals, which seems appropriate.
• Boat Maker - Water, Movement. Should be obvious.
• Tooth Carver - Movement, Illusion or Truth. Illusion or Truth depending on whether their scrimshaw is purely artistic or is for record keeping. Communication nowadays is specifically the Issaries rune, a composite of Movement and Harmony, and Water isn't really needed.
• Tide Keeper - Truth, Water.
• Island Mother - Earth, Darkness. A former grain goddess who lost most of her fertility, replacing it with coldness.

[ZedAlpha]

ooh. Would it be too paradoxical for Tooth Carver to be Illusion and Truth? Art and record-keeping? It'd make sense for a culture to value both things.

[Richard S.]

Just now, ZedAlpha said:

ooh. Would it be too paradoxical for Tooth Carver to be Illusion and Truth? Art and record-keeping? It'd make sense for a culture to value both things.

Sure, sounds fun. It does imply some association with Illumination to use opposed runes though, which could provide an interesting hook.

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Fourth thought:  Perhaps the priests of the timekeeping god locked the island away to keep the god of the wild from *escaping*.  But now the First Whaler is tired of sailing around the same tiny sea and found a way out because that's what Heroes do.

Ooh, I like this.

I have to wonder, too, if them being locked away before Time means they're maybe less restricted by the compromise. Maybe the First Whaler and his family are still there to physically lead their people into these new oceans?

[Richard S.]

Third post in a row, sorry, thinking of several things while slightly boozed and not stopping to string them all together. Zed you might want to buy the Prosopaedia if you're interested in how your gods relate to the existing sea pantheon. Just search up Merfolk Pantheon and that should give you the highlights on the major ones. Also just a good book to show how the same gods are worshiped across a variety of cultures and how portfolios like beast god, storm god, etc are distributed.

[ZedAlpha]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Sure, sounds fun. It does imply some association with Illumination to use opposed runes though, which could provide an interesting hook.

I like that a lot. I'm imagining weird artwork on some of their oldest records, intricately carved into massive sea monster bones.

Okay, so with your guidance (thanks, by the way), and leaving out the crazy-scary-paranoid island goddess I've got something like this:

• Island Parents Cult: Provides Water, Man, and Spirit runes, has two subcults: First Whaler, offering Death, and Giving Tide, offering Beast, or maybe Life? Their primary myth, which is probably the islanders' initiation myth, involves First Whaler falling in love with a mermaid, the mermaid saving him from drowning in a storm, and in return he saves her from being eaten by a giant whale.
  
  Merfolk all seem kinda genderfluid (which I like, I'm also genderfluid IRL), and I like the idea that this culture has inherited that from Giving Tide. I don't think the culture has gender roles that are nearly as clear-cut and heavily delineated as some others. Initiation into a subcult probably just involves whether you feel like going out and hunting sea monsters or staying home and cooking sea monster bits.
   
• Lamed Shipwright: In the grand mythic tradition of craftsperson-deities having some kind of physical disability, I like the idea that this one's got problems with their legs or foot, but tremendous upper body strength. I like your suggestion of Movement and Water, because it means that their doesn't need legs to be able to quickly steer a boat. Might also be the god of navigation for this culture.  Myths probably include something about building better and better ships to try and find one that's impervious to being kraken'd.

• Blind Scrimshander: Kind of going on an accidental theme here, but this deity carves out gorgeous artwork and records into sea monster bones and teeth, using a sharp sense of touch and an impeccable memory to read the impressions. Illusion and Truth definitely make sense, with a connection to Illumination probably means that the adherents of this deity get strange, and sometimes go a little mad. I'm imagining a lot of crazy wisdom and abstract carvings, and myths that involve the Scrimshander realizing that they don't need functioning eyes to see.
   

• Tide Keeper: This one's probably just very tiny and scrawny compared to their siblings, but has a sharp mind that ticks like a clock. Instead of Truth and Water, I kind of like Law and Water. The tides are regular as the Cosmos itself, and that might set them at odds with their possibly-Illuminated sibling. This one might also be the god of tide pools. Their priesthood's initiation might involve ritualistically allowing the high tide to wash over you and recede, or something.

Edited August 30, 2023 by ZedAlpha

[ZedAlpha]

10 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Ooh, I like this.

I have to wonder, too, if them being locked away before Time means they're maybe less restricted by the compromise. Maybe the First Whaler and his family are still there to physically lead their people into these new oceans?

OOH. Yeah! Maybe! I was thinking the First Whaler and the Giving Tide would have ascended to godhood and might not be there all the time, like Hyalor and the other gods aren't there physically all the time in Six Ages, even though that's still pre-Great Compromise. That being said, if they're not as affected by the Compromise, maybe they can manifest a lot more easily than the other gods. For now, anyway, until the Cosmos notices them and tightens the web of causality.

That'd probably mean that their magics are like...strangely powerful for how relatively insignificant they are as deities? Given how close they can be to their worshipers?

[ZedAlpha]

I also need to come up with better names for these folks XD

[Richard S.]

24 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

I kind of like Law and Water. The tides are regular as the Cosmos itself, and that might set them at odds with their possibly-Illuminated sibling. This one might also be the god of tide pools. Their priesthood's initiation might involve ritualistically allowing the high tide to wash over you and recede, or something.

I think going with Stasis would better fit that theme of regular patterns, but I like it. Suggesting Law does make me wonder if they maybe have some knowledge of sorcery? Water+Stasis+Sorcery(Law)? The LM connection grows stronger...

Edit: maybe scrimshaw and tides apprenticed under the Knowing God during his travels? Would explain why one is literate and the other likes laws.

21 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

That'd probably mean that their magics are like...strangely powerful for how relatively insignificant they are as deities? Given how close they can be to their worshipers?

Yeah, but more importantly they can actually do new things! Given how absolutely jacked the first whaler probably is, I really need to see him throw down with some other heroes before he gets Compromised away...

Okay I'm gonna catch a quick sleep now.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Richard S.