g33k Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 In this story: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/a-god-forgot-story/ is this snippet: "... among the first of the immortals to be touched by the impurity of Battle and suffer the effects of Strength and Storm. Those three deities ..." OK, so Battle & Strength & Storm are 3 deities. "Storm," I presume, is known in the mainstream lore as "Umath;" and "Battle" would be Kargan Tor. Who is "Strength"? 1 Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Shargash who is associated with strength repeatedly in Dara Happan mythology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 (edited) 43 minutes ago, metcalph said: Shargash who is associated with strength repeatedly in Dara Happan mythology Hmm. Umath & Kargan Tor are from the Theyleyan "Celestial Court" (the primal forces before Orlanth&Co gained ascendance). I thought Shargash was in that newer generation, alike with Orlanth/etc (i.e. I don't think he's part of the old DH "Glorantay"). But I admit I don't have good clarity on the Solar theology from before the Lunar influences. Even so... wouldn't Shargash be another mask of Battle, i.e. the same deity as Kargan Tor? If you ascribe the role of "Strength" to Shargash, who then is "Battle" in this analysis? (accepting here the Gloranthan truth that "all mythologies are true" and the God-Forgotten myth clearly calling Battle & Strength as two different deities) Edited February 9 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, g33k said: Who is "Strength"? In archaic Holy Country materials (this is one), "Strength" gets briefly assigned to a three-legged rune that looks like the modern Change. This attribution of course went away sometime before RQ2, along with "Justice" for what we now call Stability, "Love" for Harmony and "War" (close to your "Battle") for Disorder. By mid-1980 the triskelion has shifted to clear association with movement and moving matter: breezes, tidal waves, "skipping [traveling] stones," mobile automatons, riding animals. IMG this particular piece is parallel to the mystery of the extinct Ginijji civilization (hard earth, sky titan and one other) that gets incorporated into the MOLAD but the point is that there are three flavors of violence afflicting the Forgotten God. The presence of a few "War" ("Battle") runes associated with earth counters suggests that this was the combat mode of that element, call it "hard earth" if you like but if it evolved into Discord and the giants tainted by it, we can see why the myth singles it out as especially impure. "Strength" could be a different kind of angry giant, like the Great Sage Equal To Heaven says. Call him Jagrekriand if that matters, or Tolat ancient of days. Shargash belongs to the solar court but Tolat has more explicit water (mastakos is a blue god) connections. And Storm is an element we all know with a unique relationship with Death. So YGWV really after this archaeological diversion. 1 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 hours ago, g33k said: Hmm. Umath & Kargan Tor are from the Theyleyan "Celestial Court" (the primal forces before Orlanth&Co gained ascendance). I thought Shargash was in that newer generation, alike with Orlanth/etc (i.e. I don't think he's part of the old DH "Glorantay"). I don't see what the problem is. Shargash *killed* Umath whereas Kargan Tor was alive until he abandoned his post shortly before the Spike disintegrated. 5 hours ago, g33k said: Even so... wouldn't Shargash be another mask of Battle, i.e. the same deity as Kargan Tor? If you ascribe the role of "Strength" to Shargash, who then is "Battle" in this analysis? A God of Battle from a pantheon that didn't obey the Emperor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g33k Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 (edited) 27 minutes ago, metcalph said: ... A God of Battle from a pantheon that didn't obey the Emperor. You are suggesting another pantheon's Battle/War god? Hmm. I think it could make a certain degree of sense & symmetry with Battle/Strength/Storm: if TWO of them are from different pantheons, perhaps all three of them are. I think this is a good line of thought! However, I'm honestly unclear why we'd pick Shargash as "Strength" instead of "Battle" here... we could as easily nominate this other "pantheon that didn't obey the Emperor" as the source of "Strength." Either way, the question remains -- who is this deity? (now with your additional query "and from which Pantheon?") (as a separate query: do we have any other insight or input from other pantheons/mythologies (or just lore, anywhere in the corpus) as to the identity of (other masks of) "God-forgets"? Did he go the way of Splendid Yamsur?) Edited February 10 by g33k Quote C'es ne pas un .sig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, g33k said: Either way, the question remains -- who is this deity? (now with your additional query "and from which Pantheon?") I make no such queries. You are the one asking questions and quibbling with the answers for some odd reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 4 hours ago, g33k said: Either way, the question remains -- who is this deity? (now with your additional query "and from which Pantheon?") Strength can have other avatars - Earth Kings (including Lodril), the Seas (the God Forgot people were survivors of the Flood, and their lands witnessed Worcha's rage first hand), some of the Storms (both Vadrus and Storm Bull are associated with strength). I am wondering at the concept of Battle (as in contest between two teams of roughly equally powered contestants), as this form of conflict distributed over two groups of adversaries doesn't seem to be in keeping with how the Golden Age worked. Well into the Gods War, we have conflicts decided between individuals or at least champions rather than the big melee. Did Kargan Tor host mainly duels, or did he also preside over team events? 4 hours ago, g33k said: You are suggesting another pantheon's Battle/War god? Hmm. I think it could make a certain degree of sense & symmetry with Battle/Strength/Storm: if TWO of them are from different pantheons, perhaps all three of them are. I was rather looking at the Celestial Court as the single über-pantheon providing these protagonists. Tolat is an incarnation/devolution of the Twins. 4 hours ago, g33k said: (as a separate query: do we have any other insight or input from other pantheons/mythologies (or just lore, anywhere in the corpus) as to the identity of (other masks of) "God-forgets"? Did he go the way of Splendid Yamsur?) There is still a chance that the forgotten (or forgetting) deity was Malkion the Sacrifice, the founding ancestor going AWOL. Who may have been the one who gave his golden son the task of ruling or overseeing his realm. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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