Questions concerning CoC Combat Rules

[JBrennan]

Hi, I'm getting ready to run my first ever CoC campaign and have been running simulations to familiarize myself with the rules. Unfortunately, I've come across a number of situations that don't appear to be adequately addressed in the manual. Any assistance from experienced Keepers would be appreciated.

1 - Parries: It's pretty clear that a character may parry one non-firearm attack per round and that the difficulty is equal to the combat skill being used in the parry. Common sense also dictates that if an attack misses, a parry becomes unnecessary. My question, however, is can a Grapple/Parry a missed attack with the intent of disarming on a subsequent round?

2 - Knockout Attacks: Does the Resistance Roll compare the attacker's damage against the victim's Current HP or Total HP? I presume the latter, but am interested in other opinions.

3 - Grapple: The rules for Grappling are a bit confusing. Specifically:

3.A - The second option "knock down the target" is automatically successful, but what does this mean and what exactly are the consequences for the victim? As written, I'm not entirely sure how it's meant to be used.

3.B - There's also some question about how one might break a grapple: Immobilize and the "injury-making" grapples allow STR vs. STR resistance rolls, but other forms don't seem to allow any opportunity (though I suppose the victim could always just attack the grappler)...

I guess that's it for now, thanks in advance for any help!

[Camillus]

Hi, I'm getting ready to run my first ever CoC campaign and have been running simulations to familiarize myself with the rules. Unfortunately, I've come across a number of situations that don't appear to be adequately addressed in the manual. Any assistance from experienced Keepers would be appreciated.

1 - Parries: It's pretty clear that a character may parry one non-firearm attack per round and that the difficulty is equal to the combat skill being used in the parry. Common sense also dictates that if an attack misses, a parry becomes unnecessary. My question, however, is can a Grapple/Parry a missed attack with the intent of disarming on a subsequent round?

Yes and no. You can grapple a missed attack as your own attack and attempt the disarm on a subsequent round. You cannot declare a parry and turn that into an attack (Grapple).

2 - Knockout Attacks: Does the Resistance Roll compare the attacker's damage against the victim's Current HP or Total HP? I presume the latter, but am interested in other opinions.

It's compared against current hit points. Generally unless total hit points are specifically mentioned then current HP are meant.

3 - Grapple: The rules for Grappling are a bit confusing. Specifically:

3.A - The second option "knock down the target" is automatically successful, but what does this mean and what exactly are the consequences for the victim? As written, I'm not entirely sure how it's meant to be used.

There are no specific rules for being knocked down so it becomes Keeper's call. Generally I'd penalise attack and defence.

3.B - There's also some question about how one might break a grapple: Immobilize and the "injury-making" grapples allow STR vs. STR resistance rolls, but other forms don't seem to allow any opportunity (though I suppose the victim could always just attack the grappler)...

Any successful counter grapple or other attack on the target. If the grappler hasn't immobilised his target the target is free to attack back.

I guess that's it for now, thanks in advance for any help!

No problem.

[JBrennan]

It's not really combat-related, but another rule question I can't find an answer to has come up:

How does one determine whether an episode of insanity is "Mythos-induced" for the purposes of increasing the Cthulhu Mythos skill?

A. It doesn't really matter for Permanent or Temporary Insanity, but with regards to Indefinite Insanity, approximately what percentage of the characters' Sanity loss needs to come from mythos sources to qualify for the skill increase?

B. While it seems clear that insanity resulting from encounters with Mythos related creatures ought to improve the victim's Cthulhu Mythos skill, it has never been entirely clear to me just what monsters qualify. I do have access to "Malleus Monstrorum" and considered that, perhaps, the creatures listed under "Creatures of Legend & Folklore" might be disqualified, but guidance from more experienced Keepers would be appreciated in this instance.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

J. Brennan

[nclarke]

It's not really combat-related, but another rule question I can't find an answer to has come up:

How does one determine whether an episode of insanity is "Mythos-induced" for the purposes of increasing the Cthulhu Mythos skill?

A. It doesn't really matter for Permanent or Temporary Insanity, but with regards to Indefinite Insanity, approximately what percentage of the characters' Sanity loss needs to come from mythos sources to qualify for the skill increase?

B. While it seems clear that insanity resulting from encounters with Mythos related creatures ought to improve the victim's Cthulhu Mythos skill, it has never been entirely clear to me just what monsters qualify. I do have access to "Malleus Monstrorum" and considered that, perhaps, the creatures listed under "Creatures of Legend & Folklore" might be disqualified, but guidance from more experienced Keepers would be appreciated in this instance.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

J. Brennan

GM fiat in the first instance, maybe more than half of the loss - too much book-keeping for me though. Your game, your rules.

Mythos creatures are Mythos creatures. Only allowing non folklore creatures will work, Your game, your rules.

[hanszurcher]

It's not really combat-related, but another rule question I can't find an answer to has come up:

How does one determine whether an episode of insanity is "Mythos-induced" for the purposes of increasing the Cthulhu Mythos skill?

A. It doesn't really matter for Permanent or Temporary Insanity, but with regards to Indefinite Insanity, approximately what percentage of the characters' Sanity loss needs to come from mythos sources to qualify for the skill increase?

As long as the insanity is the result of a Mythos encounter (the final straw) it doesn't really matter. But not a lot of non-Mythos encounters will deprive a PC of a 1/5 or more SAN in the span of a hour. If you find this happening you or your players may want to slow down a bit.

B. While it seems clear that insanity resulting from encounters with Mythos related creatures ought to improve the victim's Cthulhu Mythos skill, it has never been entirely clear to me just what monsters qualify. I do have access to "Malleus Monstrorum" and considered that, perhaps, the creatures listed under "Creatures of Legend & Folklore" might be disqualified, but guidance from more experienced Keepers would be appreciated in this instance.

This is really up to you. But Elder gods, Outer Gods and Great Old Ones will definitely qualify. Independent and Servitor Races in all probability should count as well.

Just remember that having some Cthulhu Mythos skill is a good thing, having a lot of Cthulhu Mythos skill is not. I like long campaigns so I award Mythos skill very slowly. I also take it pretty easy on the characters with SAN loss, unless they do something obviously fool hardy.

[skenderax]

I just wondering if grapple is not to strong versus one opponent in fight. Whats your opinion? If you have better DEX you can grapple oponent or his weapon. If you have a good STR, you dont lose grapple. And opponent has only a low chance for counter.

[Gollum]

Hi, I'm getting ready to run my first ever CoC campaign and have been running simulations to familiarize myself with the rules. Unfortunately, I've come across a number of situations that don't appear to be adequately addressed in the manual. Any assistance from experienced Keepers would be appreciated.

Hi!

I'm coming a bit late in this thread, but I'm just discovering it. Indeed, after playing a lot of GURPS Cthulhu games, I'm coming back to the BRP rules. GURPS is a very good game, and it works very well with Cthulhu adventures; but it requires a lot of time and investment from the game master... Furthermore, I've got a job, a family, etc., and since I play quite rarely now, I need easier and faster rules...

I have just two things two say.

1) Contrary to GURPS rules, and also to Runequest rules, Cthulhu rules are designed to let a huge freedom to the game master. The story is the most important thing in Lovecraftian adventures. So, because precise combat rules inevitably lead the discussion around strategy, rolls, bonuses and pealties, they often disturb the atmosphere of the game... That is why combat rules are not very precise in Cthulhu.

So, just remember something: when an action sounds easy, the skill is doubled; when it sounds difficult, the skill is halved. This very simple principle solves a lot of problems. When a man is down, for instance, all his actions are difficult: attacks and defenses. But if the character comes from behind and strikes a foe who didn't notice him, his attack is easy... So, don't be afraid of taking decisions from yourself. You are the game master! As long as difficult actions are compensed by other actions which are easy (and vice versa), the players will find that you are fair - and that the game is consistent.

2) If you still want some more precisions about several topics, have a look on the big golden book titled Basic RolePlaying. There are a lot of optional rules inside, coming from other chaosium games. You don't have to use all of them. To the contrary, they are optional, which means that you can choose the ones which are nice for your games and the ones that you will drop.

Have fun.

[Atgxtg]

I have just two things two say.

1) Contrary to GURPS rules, and also to Runequest rules, Cthulhu rules are designed to let a huge freedom to the game master. The story is the most important thing in Lovecraftian adventures. So, because precise combat rules inevitably lead the discussion around strategy, rolls, bonuses and pealties, they often disturb the atmosphere of the game... That is why combat rules are not very precise in Cthulhu.

Yeah, and because combat isn't that important in Cthulhu. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight.The majority of Mythos beings are not something that players can beat in combat anyway, so there isn;t much point is getting very specific or detailed. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight. I don't think running CoC using the more complex RQ2 or RQ3 rules or even the ultra streamlined original BRP booklet is gonna make much of a difference in how CoC will play out. It's like deciding which tank to use against Godzilla. Moot. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight.

[Gollum]

Yeah, and because combat isn't that important in Cthulhu. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight.The majority of Mythos beings are not something that players can beat in combat anyway, so there isn;t much point is getting very specific or detailed. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight. I don't think running CoC using the more complex RQ2 or RQ3 rules or even the ultra streamlined original BRP booklet is gonna make much of a difference in how CoC will play out. It's like deciding which tank to use against Godzilla. Moot. The Shoggoth is still going to eat the PCs if it comes down to a fight.

Sure. But from time to time, there is still one combat against some more ordinary foes (cultists for instance). So JBrennan questions are very good ones: in such cases, more precise rules – or, at least, some explanations – are welcome…

Having said that, I do agree with you. Combats are not the most important part of the game. This is a game about investigations.

But even investigations don't have very precise rules in Cthulhu… Spot hidden, Library use, Fast talk, History or Archeology… And that's just about all.

I want to insist on something. Some people tell that Cthulhu rules are neither realistic nor well written for investigations. They especially say that finding a clue is too aleatory – despite of the fact that it can make an investigation succeed or fail (if you don’t find the vital clue, you don’t understand the mystery)… So, they prefer playing with another set of rules, like the Gumshoe system for instance…

But even if the Gumshoe system is a very good set of rules, I think that they didn’t really understand Cthulhu system.

Of course, Cthulhu rules are very simple. They are almost simplistic… And, of course they don’t insist on anything: neither combats nor investigations… But this is deliberate! They are made to let the game master focus on the story, and the players focus on thinking about the mystery rather than on dice rolls or the choice of strategic maneuvers during combats.

So, never forget the rule of easy and difficult actions. Doubled or halved skill. This is one of the most powerful game master tool, the one which will make the difference between a good Cthulhu game master and a bad one. Use it extensively…

The character are looking for an important reference in a library? Don’t content yourself of letting the players roll and telling them: “4 hours later, you finally found the book.” To the contrary. Ask them how long they are searching for that book, and how exactly they do it. Then, compare the time they spend to the one written in the adventure and adjust their skills accordingly. Did they spend a lot of time, almost looking every book in the library and even asking some help to the librarians? The success sounds assured… Easy roll. Did they just glance rapidly at the shelves because they are in a hurry? Diffcult roll.

Likewise, ask the players to describe what they do exactly during combats. Not to have strategic answers, like in a wargame, but to have good descriptions of their actions in order to adjust the skills accordingly… If a character tries to hit his foe’s groin with the knee just after having successfully grappled him with both hands, this is an easy strike! If he tries a jumping kick at the head in a little room, it is a difficult blow…

If you do so, it will make your players think much more before acting… Exaclty like we think in our ordinary life to make our actions easier. Dice roll will become less important than decisions, and the game will become more living (and more “realistic” too: players will at least have the feeling that things depend on what they exactly do rather than dice).

Edited August 20, 2012 by Gollum

[JBrennan]

Thanks a bunch for the advice everyone.

Just to be clear, I've never actually run into any of the situations described above in play (thus far, I've restricted myself to published adventures). When I'm first learning to play a new RPG system, however, I like to run a few simulations so I won't be surprised by the, inevitable, confusing or unclear bits in the middle of a game...