What's the appeal for Random Armor Value?

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

That's all good advice @Atgxtg..

I hope it helps. I also hope you tell us more about the setting. 

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

 

I think my players see the bigger picture (mostly). They're shy of combat being merchants and finding the opponents so far as grizzled mercenaries whose combat skills are (allegedly) much better than theirs. If there's been combat, they tend to use ambush. 

 You're lucky. Most of my players tend to lose sight of the big picture once things start to affect their characters. THen they are like the Road Runner in the one cartoon where gravity affects him. 

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

They are never going to be able to afford proofed armour anyways so it won't be an issue for a while. 

Firearms aren't all that cheap, and are slow to relaod so they will probably not be that big of an issue either. Although that depends a lot of how advanced they are. Still it mostly fire once then go for your melee weapon.

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I recall Palladium did a book in the 80s on armour values for most armour types (very ancient to Maximilian Ribbed Plate). The armour had resistance factors (RF) to (I think) slash, stab and impact. I remember being shocked at how little even the best armour protected from impact damage from something like a mace. I would see Black Powder weapons as very focused impact weapons. 

I've got the book, they did several versions.. I don''t hold much faith in the values. Padding soaks a lot of the impact force in real life. If that weren't the case then everybody would have used a mace and no one would have bothered with armor.

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I think that's a reasonable suggestion @Simulacrum for partial armour which is also the issue in the Early Modern period as the 'Age of Chivalry' came to an end with the last Knights battle at the Battle of Soltau in 1519. This is the start of my current campaign, where the not so famous de Kveelder cousins, Benedikt and Theo, were killed in the rout and precipitated the death from the Bloody Flux of their father, Issak. From there came tragic consequences. But that is another tale.

Knights in armor didn't come to an end so much because the handgun was better against armor that previous weapons (the Welsh Warbow was probably more dangerous) but due to several related factors: Here's a partial list:

1. You didn't need as much time to train to a competent level with the gun (a few weeks) compared to other weapons, such as the bow (several years). And less time to maintain that level. You don't need to build up your arm and back muscles so much for the gun. The gunpowder does all the work. Nor do you have to arch your shot as much. 

2. The rising middle class made for larger armies comprised mostly of civilians and numbers reduced the knights advantages. If your five times as good as your opponents but they got ten times as many men, you're in trouble. 

3. Big Guns (what we think of as cannon) did change warfare. 

4. The rising middle class also made the knights less rich than their ancestors were )in relation to the commoners), so the armor and warhorses became more costly for less return on investment (that is they didn't give the knight the same protection and battlefield superiority that they used to).

But my point is that the handgun wasn't this huge leap in weaponry. It wasn't. In fact it took centuries to develop. 

6 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Mythras has lower damage for weapons but also has the Special effects which are pretty lethal. Players though always have the option of using Hero Points to avert serious damage. 

Yeah, you get to customize just how tough to make it. IMO BRP Specials tend to be nastier (the BRP impale is more lethal than the Mythras impale) but you get a lot more options and are probably not laughing off a Myhras special. 

[Nozbat]

I think we might be all overthinking this and going into too much detail.

For me, the goal is that whatever system agreed  is fair, equitable, consistent and that provides MGF. I don't recall any players ever talking about past adventures focused on their armour. They always remember critical moments or speeches, a passing comment that makes everyone laugh etc. 

I think balance vs realism and fun vs danger will be the variables I'll work with. The players are generally happy as long as the rules aren't arbitrary and they know what they are risking.

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If that weren't the case then everybody would have used a mace and no one would have bothered with armor.

But just because I can't help being a pedant (comes with age apparently), the transfer of kinetic force when a mace hits metal armour must be pretty huge, even if one wears padding below the plate. Damage can be done without needing to penetrate armour rather than say spears or swords. And that's my final pedantry for today (though the day is yet young)

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I also hope you tell us more about the setting. 

I'm happy to share.. what would you want to know? I generally write a page for the players after the game which I post here but it tends to be amusing and takes liberties with the events or at least puts my slant on things.

The basis of the game is Renaissance 1520 and I decided to use Lüneburg as the setting (a) because I'd been there recently (b) because I didn't have to go searching for information and (c) it was a Hanseatic city and a period and milieu I wanted to play in for some time.

I also wanted to make it less about combat and fighting, more about intrigue and shady goings on. So setting the players moral problems is interesting. The fact that it is a literate society means evidence can be gathered to prove or disprove their theories. The renaissance with new ideas, upcoming religious wars, political manoeuvring and seriously weird historical people that don't need too much adaption to become patrons or adversaries.

Did our father poison his brother to gain that fourth Salt pan so that he could become a Sülfmeister? Did Archbishop Bartossa sanction his cousin to murder the Papal Legate? Can Mathias get a new pair of pointy shoes, having annoyed the Shoemakers Guild? Is von Sennheim in league with the devil? Or is he just a heretic? The players suspect all these things but don't know for sure.

They've gone beyond Lüneburg now and are in Skåne at the annual Fish Market as part of their Journeyman year. But of course, troubles follow them and they need to respond. 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I think we might be all overthinking this and going into too much detail.

Probably. I find it ususally easy to overthink and scael back than underthink and try to scale up later.

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

For me, the goal is that whatever system agreed  is fair, equitable, consistent and that provides MGF. I don't recall any players ever talking about past adventures focused on their armour. They always remember critical moments or speeches, a passing comment that makes everyone laugh etc. 

LOL! I know the feeling. I can only thinkof two times where we remembered armor. This first was in a game where we couldn't get through it, and the second was actually more of a shield thing. First attack in the campaign and the GM rolls a crtical hit on me. So, expecting to need a new character sheet shortly, I rolled my dice to parry (at 22%, I was SIZ 18) and rolled an 01!

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I think balance vs realism and fun vs danger will be the variables I'll work with. The players are generally happy as long as the rules aren't arbitrary and they know what they are risking.

Gotcha

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

But just because I can't help being a pedant (comes with age apparently), the transfer of kinetic force when a mace hits metal armour must be pretty huge, even if one wears padding below the plate. Damage can be done without needing to penetrate armour rather than say spears or swords. And that's my final pedantry for today (though the day is yet young)

It's not as much as you might think. A few things to remember. 

1. First not all the energy makes it to the bullet (or, more likely ball).
2. Energy drop offs rapidly for balls (a sphere is the worst shape for a projectile).
3. Powder was inconsistent from batch to batch.
4. Balls were big so energy per square inch or centimeter was smaller than with a bullet, which makes armor more effective. Something like the energy of a M16 round spread over 8-10 times the area. 
5. Lead balls are softer than steel and so tend to break before the armor does.

So going "think" off of plate, especially past a dozen yards or so is still a thing. Mind you minie-balls are nasty. But that's a later development. But if your people are using minie-balls it will be bad news all around. If your talking Brow Bess then yeah, bad day to be in armor. But if your more Elizabethan matchlocks then not so bad.

 

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I'm happy to share.. what would you want to know? I generally write a page for the players after the game which I post here but it tends to be amusing and takes liberties with the events or at least puts my slant on things.

I think you are about to answer that.

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

The basis of the game is Renaissance 1520 and I decided to use Lüneburg as the setting (a) because I'd been there recently (b) because I didn't have to go searching for information and (c) it was a Hanseatic city and a period and milieu I wanted to play in for some time.

Ah, yup you did. 1520 can be interesting. I wouldn't write off plate yet. I wouldn't want to rely on it either, but then no one wants to rely on their armor. 

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

I also wanted to make it less about combat and fighting, more about intrigue and shady goings on. So setting the players moral problems is interesting. The fact that it is a literate society means evidence can be gathered to prove or disprove their theories. The renaissance with new ideas, upcoming religious wars, political manoeuvring and seriously weird historical people that don't need too much adaption to become patrons or adversaries.

It is if the players buy into the moral problem. That's the trick.

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Did our father poison his brother to gain that fourth Salt pan so that he could become a Sülfmeister? Did Archbishop Bartossa sanction his cousin to murder the Papal Legate? Can Mathias get a new pair of pointy shoes, having annoyed the Shoemakers Guild? Is von Sennheim in league with the devil? Or is he just a heretic? The players suspect all these things but don't know for sure.

They've gone beyond Lüneburg now and are in Skåne at the annual Fish Market as part of their Journeyman year. But of course, troubles follow them and they need to respond. 

Something is fishy in Skåne!

[Questbird]

23 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Oh, I stand corrected.

I don't get to see any Spanish RPGs.  I never even heard of Aquelarre before. How is it?  Is there an English translation?

 

 

English translation is by Nocturnal Media and it can be obtained on DriveThruRPG. I think Chaosium even distributed it for a little while.

I found it a really interesting medieval simulator with real demons and devils (who are generally very powerful like Cthulhoid beings). And the kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula is an excellent medieval setting, somewhat isolated with diverse cultures.

As for combat, apart from the damage system there are a few differences from BRP. Different weapons use different characteristics to calculate the damage bonus. Eg. strength for Maces and Brawl, Dexterity for knives (there are 9 types of knives!) and Perception (another non-BRPism) for bows and crossbows. Weapons have other slight differences too like Axes are better at attack than defense (+/10%), and maces halve the value of metal armour. Weapons have attribute requirements but are also restricted by social class: swords are for nobles only.

 

[Atgxtg]

48 minutes ago, Questbird said:

English translation is by Nocturnal Media and it can be obtained on DriveThruRPG. I think Chaosium even distributed it for a little while.

I found it a really interesting medieval simulator with real demons and devils (who are generally very powerful like Cthulhoid beings). And the kingdoms of the Iberian peninsula is an excellent medieval setting, somewhat isolated with diverse cultures.

Sounds a bit like Ars Magica. It really stressed the medieval flavor. 

48 minutes ago, Questbird said:

As for combat, apart from the damage system there are a few differences from BRP. Different weapons use different characteristics to calculate the damage bonus. Eg. strength for Maces and Brawl, Dexterity for knives (there are 9 types of knives!) and Perception (another non-BRPism) for bows and crossbows. Weapons have other slight differences too like Axes are better at attack than defense (+/10%), and maces halve the value of metal armour. Weapons have attribute requirements but are also restricted by social class: swords are for nobles only.

 

Interesting. I might have to take a look at it, just for the new ideas. Games like that somethings have some real gem  rule ideas tucked away.