Sorcery and Allied Spirits

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

We do need to remember that Rune Spells need to be learned - and taught. If someone doesn't know something (e.g., the priest, sorcerer or even shaman to an extent), then it cannot be taught.

We don't know that. Rune spells aren't knowledge. I'm sure there is a knowledge component in the path to identifying with your god, but that doesn't mean that the spell is taught as knowledge like sorcery.

If you follow me, you will not find what I found.

[davecake]

13 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

don't see any new rules in what I wrote at all,

A sufficiently unusual assumption about the implications of explicit rules is effectively the same as a new rule in every way, except you can argue its not 100% new. 

On 6/27/2024 at 4:24 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

A sorcerous allied spirit can potentially convey new sorceries, runes, and techniques without requiring study, which is pretty tremendous.

That would be a completely new rule. Nothing in the rules anywhere suggests that there is any means of learning new sorcery spells, mastering Runes or Techniques, without requiring study. There are some extensions to the main rulebook rules in Weapons and Equipment Guide, but they only suggest that access to teachers and resources can speed up study somewhat and improve chances of success - and it is reasonable to expect that, in the probabl y vanishingly rare case of an allied spirit that had mastered a rune, they could make study go well. But not eliminate it. 

On 6/27/2024 at 4:24 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

They will need to have sorcerous knowledge of the runes and the techniques by which to manipulate them, along with the spells themselves. With very few exceptions (probably knowledge spirits and the ghosts of sorcerers), this means they would be limited to what the rune master already knows.

You are implying that Rune Mastery can be shared here the same as spirit magic spells.

On 6/27/2024 at 4:24 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

A zzaburi doesn't need an allied spirit for MP (they can store MP directly, as well as use the chain of veneration),

We don't know of anything in the rules that says the Zzaburi can store significant magic points by any means other than those known to other magicians. 

On 6/27/2024 at 4:24 AM, Ormi Phengaria said:

Free INT should work the same. However, sorcery spells which were already a part of the spirit can probably be exempted.

You've created the concept a spell being 'part of' a spirit, rather than simply knowing a spell, and given it rules significance. Is it a huge drastic change? Perhaps not, you've simply invented a spirit power equivalent to being an Inscription. But it is still new. 

[davecake]

28 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

We don't know that. Rune spells aren't knowledge. I'm sure there is a knowledge component in the path to identifying with your god, but that doesn't mean that the spell is taught as knowledge like sorcery.

If you follow me, you will not find what I found.

I agree. I think a Rune Spell is taught by experiencing it happening in otherworld ritual, and recalling that memory at an instinctive level. It's more like learning how to do a trick. 

[Shiningbrow]

13 minutes ago, davecake said:

 If you had a very big story about why it needed to happen in your Glorantha, including some sort of Intelligence focussed superhero or something, it could happen. But it would need a lot of justification. The Red Goddess spell is pretty extraordinary, better than what came before - but it is presented as extraordinary, and there is a lot of justification. It should be a very big deal, not just 'well, this will inevitably happen because people would want it to'. 

I thought I had given thre justification... but I suppose I haven't really thrashed that out in full detail.

LM is THE god for all things knowledge (and, perhaps by extension, Intelligence... although, we could move that to Elasa herself). The Red Goddess most certainly isn't. Therefore, it makes perfect sense for the god of knowledge/Intelligence have THE pre-eminent Intelligence boosting spell in the game - not someone who isn't.

And, given the precedents set by other gods and cults - that being that Humakt has the best insta-death spell in Sever Spirit as a re-usable, and Zorak Zoran only gets it as One-Use... (and many other examples exist). And the Red Goddess doesn't even have any version of it (correct??) - only those in her menagerie that had some access to it before turning traitor.

 

27 minutes ago, davecake said:

If a powerful hero quester manages to achieve something on a hero quest, it does not follow that people they tell about it can automatically repeat it.

True - although, I do question your definition of 'powerful'. Such a spell is useful to very few people (ie, sorcerers... and I can't really think of anyone else who'd get that much benefit from  it... great, you get a 10% bump to all skills... wooo hooooo). It solely benefits only one very small group - and a group that is largely isolated, and maintains a large amount of secrecy, and the power that comes with it. Seems pretty appropriate to me.

However, I will add that yes, I agree. And I'd suggest that said HQ be along the lines of LM brings Elasa out of the Underworld.

30 minutes ago, davecake said:

Absolutely. But that doesn't mean that we have reason to believe spells that basically break the spell design guidelines exist, and are just hoarded by a small secret group. There is not a cooler Sever Spirit out there, there is not a super Resurrect out there. There may be a particular hero quest ability that is even more powerful, but not just easily learnable rune spells. 

I think I've effectively argued around this. Yes there are such spells (but they don't break the guidelines), and yes they are hoarded by a small secret group (isn't this what the specialised sub-cult spells are all about??) .. and, in that vein, I'm leaning much more towards HQ/HW here with reference to how to access spells... so, Darkwalk (for example) isn't an easily accessible spell for most Orlanthi, but needs the specialised sub-cult to join. But I get that that's not the current official version for most of those spells.

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

We don't know that. Rune spells aren't knowledge. I'm sure there is a knowledge component in the path to identifying with your god, but that doesn't mean that the spell is taught as knowledge like sorcery.

If you follow me, you will not find what I found.

Oh, fair. Somehow, I had sort of convoluted the gaining of an RP over a week to the teaching of the Rune Spell requiring a week to be learned... They are not the same thing, and from what I can see, there's nothing in the rules* that says you couldn't learn a new Rune Spell in only an hour... and, that you don't need someone to teach it.

However, I think the fact that you need to go to a certain place to learn a certain Rune Spell adds weight to the idea. A) that it requires something more than just saccing the POW, but also b) that it needs instruction (from someone... or thing??)

 

But, this is off-topic....

 

(*feel free to correct me)

 

Back to the OP, and getting back into Allied Spirits...

1 hour ago, davecake said:

You are implying that Rune Mastery can be shared here the same as spirit magic spells.

This brings up a question... if you can defeat a spirit and force it to teach you a spirit magic spell, could you not also do the same for a sorcery spell? Obviously, this isn't covered in the current rules, but it's been hinted at (if not downright stated) elsewhere, when discussing the Malkioni view of the universe, and the idea of 'nodes' in the 'magic plane' (I'm going from memory here).

So, IFF one can force a spirit to turn over its spell, then it seems (maybe only a little) reasonable to think that the same can work for a sorcery spell... or even Technique or Rune mastery....

[Ormi Phengaria]

8 hours ago, davecake said:

A sufficiently unusual assumption about the implications of explicit rules is effectively the same as a new rule in every way, except you can argue its not 100% new. 

That would be a completely new rule. Nothing in the rules anywhere suggests that there is any means of learning new sorcery spells, mastering Runes or Techniques, without requiring study. There are some extensions to the main rulebook rules in Weapons and Equipment Guide, but they only suggest that access to teachers and resources can speed up study somewhat and improve chances of success - and it is reasonable to expect that, in the probabl y vanishingly rare case of an allied spirit that had mastered a rune, they could make study go well. But not eliminate it. 

You are implying that Rune Mastery can be shared here the same as spirit magic spells.

While I hesitate to reply again at any length in anticipation of further tedium and notification spam, it's a pretty simple application of rules as written without much in the way of creative interpretation:

Quote

An allied spirit is in continual mind-to-mind communication with the [rune master]. They can use each other’s magical abilities, including spell knowledge, magic points, and Rune points. The [rune master] can see through the ally’s senses (and vice versa). A [rune master] can cast spells through the ally (and vice versa) at any distance.

This is written inclusively. An rune priest of Lhankor Mhy may have spell knowledge of sorcery, and they may also have an allied spirit. It is eminently reasonable to think that the allied spirit would be able to know and cast sorcery spells extended from their rune master. If the spirit also has its own sorcery, that would also be extended to the rune master without requiring study.

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

So, IFF one can force a spirit to turn over its spell, then it seems (maybe only a little) reasonable to think that the same can work for a sorcery spell... or even Technique or Rune mastery....

There's a saying that sorcery is something you know, spirit magic is something you have, and rune magic is something you are. You can't steal knowledge, unless you're a Thanatari.

[Shiningbrow]

12 hours ago, Ormi Phengaria said:

This is written inclusively. An rune priest of Lhankor Mhy may have spell knowledge of sorcery, and they may also have an allied spirit. It is eminently reasonable to think that the allied spirit would be able to know and cast sorcery spells extended from their rune master. If the spirit also has its own sorcery, that would also be extended to the rune master without requiring study.

Sorry, but I disagree. (not that it means much.)

Mostly because I don't think that the allied spirit has the intimate knowledge of Runes and Techniques that's required.

I do, however, think that it's an issue that should be clarified by Chaosium... so, calling @Scotty (I'll post it in the relevant thread as well).

[Scotty]

In a nutshell: Allied spirits may not use or learn sorcery.

As usual, GMs are free to ignore these limitations in their own games, and have sorcery using allied spirits, by whatever method they wish.

Longer version: