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The things that I am griping about


Joseph Paul

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While I too am waiting to see the new BRP book it is perhaps a little obvious that I am not of the same mind as others about the project. I would like to thank the members here for being tolerant and not lynching me right off the bat.;) I can understand that my own opinions could be considered heretical by some.:eek:

I have put forward that BRP could use an overhaul. I base that on what I know of various BRP iterations over the years and comparing those to games that are currently in production and in the same niche that BRP wants to be in. So looking through some of the material for GURPS 4e I find that it's combat system now includes new options that bring more realism to the fight. By realism I mean that what has been added to GURPS seems to mirror things that have actually been taught by Ancient and Medieval masters of combat. Mighty blows, flurries of blows, deceptive attacks, feints etc. are the sorts of things that I like to have as options in a combat because my studies on the subject indicate that they work. GURPS 4e hit the shelves in 2004.

In going over the RQIV draft I find things like Feint, Flurry of blows, and more kinds of parries and dodges had been added as well as the Maneuver skill. This was done in 1992 twelve years before GURPS 4e. I am irked that yet again Chaosium was on the track to better, more elegant, mechanics and could not bring them to market. :(

It has been stated that BRP plays an awful lot like SB5. Does anyone know if SB5 incorporates any of the RQIV advances? IIRC Riposte was mentioned. Any others?

I don't want BRP to have to play catch up to others in the universal rules sets arena and that is what it looks like. In any case I hope that this explains some of my testiness and anxiety about the upcoming release. I am going to try to be a bit more positive about the whole thing. I promise.:D

Joseph Paul

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Joseph Paul

"Nothing partys like a rental" explains the enduring popularity of prostitution.:eek:

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Man, that is why I am so excited about this. If this is basically the SB5/Elric! game system with bells and whistles, it has all those options and more!

Just go to Noble Knight and buy a copy of Elric! or Stormbringer 5. You will find an elegant, fast, realistic combat system that is at least as good as the ones you named...and when all the other options from BRP games such as Ringworld, RQ, etc. are available right next to those core rules, well...

Yes, you can use a flurry of blows, feint, riposte, shield rush, close, volley fire, two weapons, and everything else I can think of. It is designed so that the dodge and parry are integrated, depending on the needs of the moment. It is a game system that has been with us since 1993, and some have claimed that it is the penultimate development of BRP combat. While it does use variable armor, DEX rank only, and major wound level instead of hit locations, those are things that could be added without breaking anything. And that is what this book is all about.

You are not heretical or any such thing. You have a right to say what you think, even if I disagree with you...and vice versa. Or anybody else. But what you want may already exist. Have a look. Meanwhile, if you want to know more, by all means ask.:)

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Burn him ! Burn him ! He speaks heresy !

Ahem :o

Seriously though, I think you're right, For BRP to compete it needs to be overhauled as well as compiled. From what we've heard if they incorporate the various things you've mentioned then things should be be fine. I like the idea of the optional and modular rules, people can pick and choose which bits they like and as long as everybody knows whats in or out before the game starts then everybody should be happy.

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I don't know of one game that was improved when it was 'overhauled'. Think about it and then name one. Usually they lose whatever appeal they had and become unwieldy. GURPS, HERO, D&D; all became bloated monsters and accountants' nightmares. BRP is fine as it is, GURPS was better when it was TFT (and up through 3rd ed.), HERO was better when it was Fantasy Hero, D&D was better (except for the basic resolution) in earlier incarnations. And look at MRQ. 'Simple' isn't necessarily 'best', what I am saying is that frequently in 'improving' a game that special 'something' gets lost. When you have something good it is sometimes better to just let it be and accept whatever warts it has...most of the time, in my experience.

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I don't know of one game that was improved when it was 'overhauled'. Think about it and then name one. Usually they lose whatever appeal they had and become unwieldy. GURPS, HERO, D&D; all became bloated monsters and accountants' nightmares. BRP is fine as it is, GURPS was better when it was TFT (and up through 3rd ed.), HERO was better when it was Fantasy Hero, D&D was better (except for the basic resolution) in earlier incarnations. And look at MRQ. 'Simple' isn't necessarily 'best', what I am saying is that frequently in 'improving' a game that special 'something' gets lost. When you have something good it is sometimes better to just let it be and accept whatever warts it has...most of the time, in my experience.

I know what you're saying, which is why I'd be in favour of having things like flurries of blows etc etc as sidebars or optional rules. The main text is BRP as we know and love it......and people can add bits in ( or not ) as they see fit.

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I agree. A simple base system, with optional rules to add more realism (and complication) as people see fit. If it's more similar to SB5 than RQ3 I'll probably have a lot of stuff to grow acustomed to allready. But I have heard it's well influenced by some of the RQ fixes in RQ:AiG (RQ4) too. It will be really exciting to get hold of that book! :D

Sverre.

Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!
b1.gif 116/420. High Priest.

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Oh, I think BRP certainly could use some tweaks ans upgrades. Chasoium used to tweak the game here and there. A non-lethal combat system is something of a must in this day and age, probably along with some sort of player points to adjust die rolls.

I don't thing a overhaul is a good idea, just more along the lines of Agentorange's idea of sidebar rules (or maybe in the spot rules section). Keep the core rules and just proide options.

There are a lot of neat things that have come out in games in the last 15 years that could benefit BRP. Even simple stuff like the retrat rule from GURPs or Usagi Yojimbo, skill stunts, perhaps a stun/shock mechanic, lots of things.

A lot of this could end up in setting books too. I.e. a more advanced jousting system for a middle Ages setting.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Badcat, you really don't think D&D3.x is an improvement over 1 or 2?

I know there are a lot of things that many people don't like about D&D's current incarnation, but it is certainly better than what came before! Thac0? Non-weapon Proficiencies? Psionics?(!) D&D was an unbalanced, almost unplayable, mess! The hoard of house rules needed to make it playable was extraordinary. The only thing old AD&D has going for it is nostalgia.

The new D&D is balanced, stream-lined, and easily playable with the base rules and no house rules. It's skill system is obviously heavily influenced by BRP. It may be a bit too mechanical for some tastes, but it is definitely an improvement over what came before.

I also bought the Champions (the Hero System) up till 3rd edition and found each to be an improvement on what came before. I eventually stopped playing as that group fell apart, so I can't speak for the following editions.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

30/420

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The new D&D is balanced, stream-lined, and easily playable with the base rules and no house rules. It's skill system is obviously heavily influenced by BRP. It may be a bit too mechanical for some tastes, but it is definitely an improvement over what came before.

Funnily I just read something about the new D&D 4.0. and I most time I was amused from the commentaries of the fans and the designers about their new "baby". Among other changes they spoke about heavy concentration on four focus roles of the different character classes in 4.0.:

1. front line fighters (tanks?),

2. damage dealers (mages and the new warlock class)

3. Healers (clerics, druids) and

4. hybrids (paladins etc)

My conclusio: D&D 4.0 seems to be designed more like a World of Warcraft MMORPG than any other system out there. These guys are really great. In one Interview I heard, the WotC guy even meant that its NOT possible to use all D&D miniatures from 3.5. in 4.0. (just a few). WtF - I had to laugh that much that I nearly fell from my chair. :)

Great stuff which shows how money can mutate a rpg in something else. (dont know what)

After this unbelievable interviews about D&D 4.0 I am really glad to have BRP as my rpg system of choice.

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Oh, I think BRP certainly could use some tweaks ans upgrades. Chasoium used to tweak the game here and there. A non-lethal combat system is something of a must in this day and age, probably along with some sort of player points to adjust die rolls.

Please atgxtg dont say the word "non-lethal". This is no-no. A bad word. :D

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Lord Twig.

D&D 3.0 was not an improvement on 1 and 2 in enough of the correct ways. From my perspective only, the basic resolution, saves, and skill system were improvements; the feats, prestige classes, multiclassing system, interwoven and interdependent nature of the rules ruined it. I would play and maybe run AD&D 2nd edition or Basic D&D, but I won't run or play 3.0+. I find it to be a bloated unplayable mess. That's just me, and by itself would not account for my extreme dislike of the game. What causes that is the fact that 90%+ of the gamers around here will not consider anything else. THAT yanks my chain, especially since I don't think the game comes even close to what I consider a fun experience. That's just the way it is. HERO is great if you like super detailed, do-it-yourself erector set sorts of rpgs. GURPS is OK if you like super detailed character generation and everything handed to you in a pre-digested sort of way. All in my own humble opinion...and remember, you asked. Now back to our regularly scheduled BRP goodness...which I can now indulge again, here in this wonderful new BRP site.

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Thanks for the reply badcat, your position makes a little more sense to me now.

It seems we agree on basic resolution, saves, and skills. I would also say that the feats, prestige classes, and multiclassing system added flexibility to the game that was severely lacking in previous editions. As for them all being interwoven, well, that is the nature of the beast. What really went wrong with D&D3.x for me is the massive number of supplements.

They had something that was working fairly well, but they wanted more money. So they keep putting out new supplements and that just ruined it. Power creep set in and soon it was impossible to judge how all these new things would work with everything else. Now you can have a cleric with the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat and the Magic domain cast Anti-Magic Shell on himself, but exclude himself from the area of effect. This means that all of his magic works but that anyone within 10' of him is without magic. Congratulations! You won D&D! :(

Anyway, this forum is about BRP, which I am very glad of. To get back to the original thread, I like many others, would like to see a very well thought out and play-tested upgrade of the BRP system. I know some just want exactly what they had before, but I don't think that is a strategy for success in today's market.

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)

30/420

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Just so you know, I did run 3.0 when it first came out. We got to 5th level and I found I could not handle it, and at that point no one else in the group wanted to try. Before all the splat books started showing up even. That was one thing, because tastes and abilities vary. But when I starting finding nothing but 3.5 available around here, well grrrrr....but I do live 10 miles from WOTC central.:(

As for an upgrade of BRP, my views are already on record, here and elsewhere. I firmly believe every game has a sweet spot, and even Elric! went a little past it for BRP, already. My own sweet spot is Stormbringer 1-3 enhanced a little with Elric! and Magic World. I have run many campaigns with that combo, and with the same core group for a long time before we finally broke up (in between trying about every other rpg that came out for a long time, I can't even remember them all). I am perfectly happy with the description of the book as presented by Jason Durall and Chaosium so far, and really see no need for significant upgrading. Way too much could get lost or go wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I say.:cool:

And I find the idea of outdated games to be just pointless. I mean, look at chess...even though it's a different animal, I know, but on some level a game is a game. But if you change it it becomes a different, and usually inferior, game. You said 3.0 was an improvement over 2e, but to my mind 2e (before ITS splat books) was more fun...and that is more important to me than superior design. To me and many others 3.0/3.5 has simply never felt like D&D, or any fun rpg I have experience with. And that makes it definitely inferior to my mind.

BRP is fun, as it is, and I don't want to lose that even though I very, very rarely get to play it these days. Official support for it, anewly printed version, means I might get to play my favorite rpg again, and officially sanctioned at that.:D

Glad to have you on this forum, by the way, and thanks for listening and not inferring my bad taste and stupidity as so often has happened at other sites, like rpg.net.:)

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Anyway, this forum is about BRP, which I am very glad of. To get back to the original thread, I like many others, would like to see a very well thought out and play-tested upgrade of the BRP system. I know some just want exactly what they had before, but I don't think that is a strategy for success in today's market.

Well the problem is WE had BRP before, but is this the same for others? 90% of the BRP material is OOP and out of reach for most of potential players. So for them its new and not old. IMO one of the fundamental problems to convince some people of the qualitity of the system is that most of it is simply not in print. How can you show a gamer which is interested in a superhero game that Superworld could perfectly suit his tastes? Its not available anymore, so he chooses another rpg.

For BRP the most concepts and ideas are out there. All it needs is to be collected a little bit streamlined and published. I think there is no need to fix something which was never broken. Mongoose tried it recently and released a mediocre variant of BRP. This shows that its not so easy to make a good upgrade to BRP.

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Please atgxtg dont say the word "non-lethal". This is no-no. A bad word. :D

I diagree. Not that we need a clunky version, but the current way BRP handles unarmed combat is ludicrous. A guy with an 17 STR and SIZ should not throw punches with the same effect as a strike from a light mace.

For supers, something like this is vital. That was probably Palldium's biggest weakness with their Supers game. Most "heroes" ended up being serial killers.

But, keep in mind, just how BRP Handles non-lethal combat is open to lots of possiblities. Rather than tracking subdual damage or some such, the game could just incorporate the old stun/knock out rules, and maybe have the damage apply somhow to fatigue (either by a point method if you use RQ3 fatigue points, or as a modifer to a CON roll an RQ2 ish method. Something like each mutiple of HP dropping your mutipliers by 1 for the CON roll would work.)

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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Well the problem is WE had BRP before, but is this the same for others? 90% of the BRP material is OOP and out of reach for most of potential players. So for them its new and not old. IMO one of the fundamental problems to convince some people of the qualitity of the system is that most of it is simply not in print. How can you show a gamer which is interested in a superhero game that Superworld could perfectly suit his tastes? Its not available anymore, so he chooses another rpg.

For BRP the most concepts and ideas are out there. All it needs is to be collected a little bit streamlined and published. I think there is no need to fix something which was never broken. Mongoose tried it recently and released a mediocre variant of BRP. This shows that its not so easy to make a good upgrade to BRP.

True. But one problem with Mongoose's variant was the reason why they made changes. Way back, when the game wasn't out and most of us were art the site asking questions, I used to ask, over and over, "why did they change that?"

The answer I kept getting was "You didn't expect a new edition wouldn't have changes did you? Of course there were going to be changes."

And that was the problem. In the past, changes to BRP were for a game specfic reason. Either to fix or improve a rule, or to have BRP fit a certain setting, or even to simplify the rules so they didn't have to reprint the entire RQ2 book.

Mongoose changed things just to change things, and make sure that their game was differnt that previous editions of RQ.

So I think it is possible to imrpove BRP, but it isn't easy. Changes have to aim at improving the game in some way, elimintating flaws and so forth. Since BRP is a pretty good system (in our eyes, anyway) there are not as many flaws to address.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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I agree BRP does not handle fist-fights very well. You are more likely to get killed than get knocked out, which is not right. Having separate skills for kick, fist and headbutt also seemed a bit much, and with the 1d6 damage for a kick you could get a big martial artist doing 3d6 kick damage! I'm not sure how this could be solved rulewise though.

Did you ever use some special houserules for unarmed combat? If so, which?

SGL. (Trifletraxor, just on a public computer - can't use the admin login).

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I agree BRP does not handle fist-fights very well. You are more likely to get killed than get knocked out, which is not right. Having separate skills for kick, fist and headbutt also seemed a bit much, and with the 1d6 damage for a kick you could get a big martial artist doing 3d6 kick damage! I'm not sure how this could be solved rulewise though.

Did you ever use some special houserules for unarmed combat? If so, which?

SGL. (Trifletraxor, just on a public computer - can't use the admin login).

We use the Brawl rules from SB5 in addition to a house rule that you have to sutract the damage bonus of your target from your damage roll. (critical excluded) So tough guys with damage bonus are more difficult to hurt by weaklings.

I cannot remember that we ever used the kick damage rule or headbutt, which I consider as pure nonsense and system flaw (one of the few).

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True. But one problem with Mongoose's variant was the reason why they made changes. Way back, when the game wasn't out and most of us were art the site asking questions, I used to ask, over and over, "why did they change that?"

The answer I kept getting was "You didn't expect a new edition wouldn't have changes did you? Of course there were going to be changes."

And that was the problem. In the past, changes to BRP were for a game specfic reason. Either to fix or improve a rule, or to have BRP fit a certain setting, or even to simplify the rules so they didn't have to reprint the entire RQ2 book.

Mongoose changed things just to change things, and make sure that their game was differnt that previous editions of RQ.

I agree. This motivation was surely very strong for Mongoose. Additonally I guess there have been possible one or two bloated egos from the Mongoose "game designers" which liked to release the version of RQ which they personally liked best. (regrettable they seem to have played alot of D&D in their previous rpg carreer)

So I think it is possible to imrpove BRP, but it isn't easy. Changes have to aim at improving the game in some way, elimintating flaws and so forth. Since BRP is a pretty good system (in our eyes, anyway) there are not as many flaws to address.

Again agreed. There could be changes. But please leave them in the next edition of BRP. The edition of this year should IMO only be a clever and streamlined collection of core and OOP material (which could be also very exotic and unknown by the most players)

Eg. regarding unarmed combat J. Durall said that he wrote the system along the rules of SB5. (with a single brawl skill)

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Enpeze,

I wasn't thinking of a rewrite so much as paragraph in the new/improved spot rules. Something like the SB5 brawling rules wouldn't be too bad.

I think we are pretty much onthe same page. The important thing is to get BRP out of the shelves where gamers can see it. Then worry about alterations and upgrades.

As for why MRQ came out the way it did,

Well, I had heard from some people from the playtest groups as well as some Mongoose employees that the rules were much more BRPish up until the last draft, when Matt Sprange rewrote everything. I also heard that pretty much all the complaints about the system were pointed out by the playtesters, too. If you can mug a playtester and look at some of the playtest drafts you will see a RPG that looks a lot more familar. MOngoose orginally advertised the game as the return of RQ, and played up the involvement of Stafford and Perrin in the desgin on the new edition. I don't know why Stafford doesn't write anything for MRQ, or why Perrin left the playtest. But neither had a hand in design of the game as originally advertised.

And yeah, you can tell what RPG system Matt is used to writing for. I think a LOT of the changes and problems weren't so much by design but fallout form removing all the checks and balances that the system had. Steve hid a lot of the plumbing for RQ away. Tweaking one part of he game almost always lead to unforeseen changes in how other aspects of the game played out.

I think there is a point about dated RPGs. Chess did change an evolve over centuries. Newer RPGs often have new options and such that the designers of eariler games would have used if they had thought of it I seriously doubt we have all those neat polyhedrons to roll if Gygax and friends had ever though of using mutiple D6 the way Hero, GURPS or WEG did. Or an AC system, and increasing HP for that matter.

BTW, Maybe the D&D thing should be spun off for it's own topic? There is certainly enough to say about it, especially with it's new RQ inspired skill system..

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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We borrowed a page from Champions... My Path of Immanent Mastery character, Umeko, was doing 2d6+1d4 damage from Martial kicks... Average damage, 9.5. Average human has 4 HP in the head, 6 in chest...

So... we ruled that natural weapons attacks like fist, kick, grapple, bash did 'stunning' damage. 1 HP per die was 'real' damage, the rest just 'bashing' damage; it would fade rapidly (1 HP/MR). Max damage in an area would render it unusable until the damage disipated. However, if you took max HP in the head, you're KO'd. IRL, people get KO'd from blows to the head that do not necessarily kill them. This system allows a person to get KO'd by a punch to the back of the head, then wake up later having only taken 1 or 2 HP.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done."

George Carlin (1937 - 2008)

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Enpeze,

I wasn't thinking of a rewrite so much as paragraph in the new/improved spot rules. Something like the SB5 brawling rules wouldn't be too bad.

I think we are pretty much onthe same page. The important thing is to get BRP out of the shelves where gamers can see it. Then worry about alterations and upgrades.

Thats it.

As for why MRQ came out the way it did,

Well, I had heard from some people from the playtest groups as well as some Mongoose employees that the rules were much more BRPish up until the last draft, when Matt Sprange rewrote everything. I also heard that pretty much all the complaints about the system were pointed out by the playtesters, too. If you can mug a playtester and look at some of the playtest drafts you will see a RPG that looks a lot more familar. MOngoose orginally advertised the game as the return of RQ, and played up the involvement of Stafford and Perrin in the desgin on the new edition. I don't know why Stafford doesn't write anything for MRQ, or why Perrin left the playtest. But neither had a hand in design of the game as originally advertised.

I guess Greg Stafford is not the biggest BRP fan anymore. He seems to prefer the HQ game. And Steve Perrin wrote some interesting posts on rpg.net after the release of MRQ, where he complained that he didnt get a cheque from Mongoose for MRQ. Mongoose posted too and then sent him the cheque. (really big cinema :))

And yeah, you can tell what RPG system Matt is used to writing for. I think a LOT of the changes and problems weren't so much by design but fallout form removing all the checks and balances that the system had. Steve hid a lot of the plumbing for RQ away. Tweaking one part of he game almost always lead to unforeseen changes in how other aspects of the game played out.

I think a big problem too was that the guys at Mongoose didnt understand the spirit of BRP at all. They have been in their little D&D tainted world and where too overconfident to be able to make a "new RQ" without much effort. At least it would explain why they didnt hear at the playtesters comments. Many of them seem to be not very long in the hobby or in game designing at all. I mean I dont design an elegant piece of clothing for Armani if I am a trainee from Walmarth, no?

BTW, Maybe the D&D thing should be spun off for it's own topic? There is certainly enough to say about it, especially with it's new RQ inspired skill system..

Well, we dont know how 4.0. will be. I heard that they want to go along World of Warcraft MMORPG with simpler rules, subscription model, computer aided support and heavy "focus" on 4 different roles in game. (tank, damage dealer, hybrid and healer) When I read this I was very amused. :) So who knows if they have RQ inspired skills at all in 4.0? It could also be a "craft system" with templates and receipes or whatever. (and maybe you have to conduct a "corpse run" if you die :))

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I heard it was going to be a fusion of tabletop, computer, miniatures, and card game heavily supported by necessary on-line material (which is NOT going to be free, even the PREVIEWS starting at the beginning of the year). And there is going to be up to seven each PHBs, MMs, AND DMGs. No joke. Some wag over at Troll Lord Games dubbed it 'Dungeons and Dragonballz'. Yum.:rolleyes:

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I heard that 4.0 (again, maybe it needs it's own thread) was going to be very similar to the new Star Wars rules. WotC is trying to simplify things as 3.5 got over complicated with all the tacked on stuff.

Plus it give WOtC a chance to make some money selling the core books again. From what I hear the OGL has backfired on them a bit. They didn't wind up with the early 80s level of market share that they thought OGL would have provided. Between pdf and large 3rd party companies like Mongoose, the majority of d20 products are not produced by WotC.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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