Is it possible to counterspell a caster?

[Godlearner]

I am interested in seeing if anyone is playing with rules which allow spell casting to be countered as it is being cast. 

"If the spell caster’s concentration is broken in any sudden and unexpected way before they have finished with casting a spell (for example, taking damage), they cannot cast the spell and must try again. However, no magic points are lost in the attempt."

So, lets say the caster gets hit by a Disrupt. If the spell overcomes the target, there is obviously a Concentration check since damage is taken. What if the Disrupt does not succeed? Is it enough to force a Concentration check? What if instead of a Disrupt, the caster is targeted by a Dismiss Magic? Would you give a POW vs POW check to force a concentration check? How about a situation a where the target is trying to cast a Bladesharp 4. Would that be automatically countered by a Dismiss Magic 2 without even having to roll a concentration?

Would an active Soul Sight aid in process of countering spell casting by letting one see the magic points in the spell being cast, or no since the total magic points expended is not determined until the spell is finished?

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

What if the Disrupt does not succeed?

what is the success ? I mean what did the caster fail ?

- the POW roll to determine if the spell is cast or not ? in that case, the concentration is not broken, no need of any roll.

- the POW vs POW roll is maybe different

page 244 "Resisting a spell is considered a defensive action"

so it is an action, not a "natural" capacity

page 247 " If the caster tries to throw another spell, is attacked in spirit combat, takes physical or magical damage, or has something unexpected happen, then the caster must make a concentration roll (INT×3 as a percentage) or the effects of the spell cease and the spell must be recast for the effect to again apply. Spell casters trying to maintain an active spell are limited to a movement rate of 4 meters per melee round and they can do no fighting."

 

then, for me, the victim of the disrupt spell needs to make a concentration roll at least... because after all, an ation is an action.

--> Dodge or parry  breaks the concentration without any roll is needed ("they can do no fighting" so if they do, the spell cease). So we could argue that the defensive action in the POW vs POW is a magical dodge/parry

-->"is attacked in spirit combat" so in the same way, it is before the spiritual damage, just being in opposition breaks your concentration; without roll.

So it seems the magical attack breaks your concentration in all cases because you cannot "decide" to not answer, when a physical attack may break your concentration if you take damage or if you decide to defend yourself. But if the attack is successfull (the skill roll) but not enough efficient to cause any damage, then you can keep your concentration

Note that is something I dislike, I would prefer (and now I read my own answer, I will do it consciously) that there are two levels :

- You are dirsupted (not the spell) by noise, attack (spiritual / magical / physical) anything that seems disrupting but you don't get any damage, you roll the INT x3 to keep your concentration.

- You take dammage, for any reason, or you decide to do something else actively (I want to dodge, I want to parry, etc...) then the concentration is automatically broken

[Scotty]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

I am interested in seeing if anyone is playing with rules which allow spell casting to be countered as it is being cast.

Generally speaking, I don't allow it as by the time they see a spell being cast, there's no time to react. 

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

"If the spell caster’s concentration is broken in any sudden and unexpected way before they have finished with casting a spell (for example, taking damage), they cannot cast the spell and must try again. However, no magic points are lost in the attempt."

I do allow it if it's part of a combat round and the attacker hits the caster on a lower SR (before the spell goes off)

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

So, lets say the caster gets hit by a Disrupt. If the spell overcomes the target, there is obviously a Concentration check since damage is taken.

No concentration roll is needed per RQG 255, If the spell caster’s concentration is broken in any sudden and unexpected way before they have finished with casting a spell (for example, taking damage), they cannot cast the spell and must try again.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

What if the Disrupt does not succeed? Is it enough to force a Concentration check?

If you rule that the POW vs POW check is sudden and unexpected then the spell fails, otherwise if they can see the other caster casting then no.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

What if instead of a Disrupt, the caster is targeted by a Dismiss Magic? Would you give a POW vs POW check to force a concentration check?

As above.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

How about a situation a where the target is trying to cast a Bladesharp 4. Would that be automatically countered by a Dismiss Magic 2 without even having to roll a concentration?

You can only counter a spell that has been cast.

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Would an active Soul Sight aid in process of countering spell casting by letting one see the magic points in the spell being cast, or no since the total magic points expended is not determined until the spell is finished?

as above.

As usual, feel free to ignore this and use what you like in your games.

Edited July 15 by Scotty

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

What if the Disrupt does not succeed? Is it enough to force a Concentration check?

If you rule that the POW vs POW check is sudden and unexpected then the spell fails, otherwise if they can see the other caster casting then no.

That one does not make sense to me. How is it different if you can see it being cast at you vs. if can not. If you are actively defending against a spell being cast, and you are in either case, the result should seem to be the same.

[Scotty]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

That one does not make sense to me. How is it different if you can see it being cast at you vs. if can not. If you are actively defending against a spell being cast, and you are in either case, the result should seem to be the same.

That's up to you to decide.

[Godlearner]

7 minutes ago, Scotty said:

That's up to you to decide.

Well, technically all of them are :) ,but thank you for your input. 

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Godlearner said:

That one does not make sense to me. How is it different if you can see it being cast at you vs. if can not. If you are actively defending against a spell being cast, and you are in either case, the result should seem to be the same.

If you get a pinprick and you're expecting it, you barely feel it. If it comes as a surprise, you might jump out of your skin. I wouldn't force a concentration roll on resisting a spell though. Sometimes you might not even be aware of it happening, depending on the magic.

[Jens]

Reading the RAW, I don't see anything that states you cannot parry or dodge while casting a non-sorcery spell- those limitations are only imposed if you are trying to augment your casting ability with Meditate pg 245 or another skill pg 247, which to me suggests there is no such limitation if you're NOT trying to augment. This makes sense to me, since otherwise you'd be trying to do 3 things at once- cast & meditate/sing/dance & parry/dodge, rather than just cast & m/s/d, or cast & defend. The rules @French Desperate WindChild quotes on pg 247 apply specifically to maintaining active spells, so I don't think they're relevant for casting new spells.

So with that in mind, I don't think the simple act of resisting a spell is enough to trigger a concentration roll while casting a new spell- only taking damage once you fail such a resistance roll would count, or being overcome by a spell like befuddle, or by demoralize which blocks casting offensive spells (if that's what you were trying to cast).