WOD:Glorantha runelords & runepriests discussion

[Jon Hunter]

Hi Guys,

I'm second guessing some design decisions i made in the Rune magic system for WOD:Glorantha and want to knock round options and see what other people think.

Here are some facts about system design that i don't want to change.

• The storytellers system has one core mechanic which works for just about everything, and differences in game play are about difference uses of that one mechanic, not different mechanics for different character types.
• Runelords & Runepriests should be working off the same rules and differences should be how those rules apply in the game world.
• I want to keep the cultural distinction between rune lords & rune priests with WOD:Glorantha.

In the first draft of the system

• Cult specific rune spells come from association with your Gods runes
• Common rune spells came from association with generic runes such as magic, spirit and truth
• The distinction between Runelords and Priests was a mix of those who built up the generic rune associations to serve the flock ( priests) and those who focused on cult runes and become avatars of there Gods (Runelords)
• Apart from, the simple character choice distinction in rune association, there are no rule differences or nuances  between the two roles.
• This works very well for cult and generic runespells, but has no workable mechanism of associated cult spells
• Runespells are currently cast by using you rating in the relevant rune plus the amount of Runepoints you wish to spend on the spell.

Upon looking at RQG, your common rune magic spells are powered by your cult runes.

• This is effective  and means that priestess get access to common spells easily
• It does reflect thew power of the gods
• The associated spells system works as most people have around 50% ratings in the runes for non cult spells

Thoughts of moving towards the RQG system

• If I adopt this system it shatters the distinction between rune lords and priests in a one system
• It still doesn't give me a decent system for associated cult spells

Does this make any sense to anyone else and am i just talking riddles to myself ?
 

[Yelm's Light]

Yeah, it does pretty much break the distinction.  To state the obvious, Rune Lords are the martial types, war leaders and champions, not having the prerequisite time for prayer and study of things magical (hence the tendency toward one-use Rune Magic from RQ2 and the lack of any mention of their access to Rune Magic in the rules).  Priests and the rarer Rune Lord-Priests were the ones able to cast reusable Rune Magic.  Throwback that I am, I prefer the old system.

Essentially, you're reducing common Rune spells to a middle class between Battle Magic and Rune Magic...too powerful to be Battle Magic, but simpler or less time-consuming to learn than cultic Rune Magic.  Associated cults' magic would tend to be more difficult to cast under your system, unless the spells shared cult Runes.  (To compensate, you could apply a bonus for Priests only when casting associated cults' spells whose runes differ.)

[Jon Hunter]

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Yeah, it does pretty much break the distinction.  To state the obvious, Rune Lords are the martial types, war leaders and champions, not having the prerequisite time for prayer and study of things magical (hence the tendency toward one-use Rune Magic from RQ2 and the lack of any mention of their access to Rune Magic in the rules).  Priests and the rarer Rune Lord-Priests were the ones able to cast reusable Rune Magic.  Throwback that I am, I prefer the old system.

I like the old system too it just doesn't fit with the storyteller rules dynamic, and it would be false to try insert that dynamic into of storyteller rules.

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Essentially, you're reducing common Rune spells to a middle class between Battle Magic and Rune Magic...too powerful to be Battle Magic, but simpler or less time-consuming to learn than cultic Rune Magic.  

I don't think I am, what i'm doing is making common rune spells accessible by gaining runic associations with magic, spirit, truth and mastery runes. Thus if you want access to general magic you character looks to develop ties to generalist runes. So we can keep the Runelord/rune priest split by people who develop generalist rune magic powers and those who only concentrate on cult specific rune powers, but there is only system and mechanic in play.

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

Associated cults' magic would tend to be more difficult to cast under your system, unless the spells shared cult Runes.  (To compensate, you could apply a bonus for Priests only when casting associated cults' spells whose runes differ.)

As i've written and articulated i'm happy with associated spells being difficult or expensive to cast. If players get there dicepool from rune points spent only if they have no runic association for the spells that fine, more expensive, higher chance of failure , weaker effects all works for me.  Its just creating the mechanic for gaining access to the spells. 

[Joerg]

There are few cults with both priests and lords, and probably still too many, mainly for backward compatibility. Assigning both a rune lord and a rune priest position to each and any cult (as per Rune Masters) was one of the features of RQ2 that was dropped in RQ3, and with some reason. Yelmalio should by any rights only have the rune lord position, but the priest position was probably retained because of the prominence of Yelmalio cultists from both tracks in popular publications like Pavis or Griffin Mountain. For Sun County, we have an amusing historical reason (Teshnos) for having both lords and priests, and the Sartar Sun Dome quite likely inherited those from the Praxian one. The cult in Balazar is a fringe organisation, and to be honest I don't have any idea how the Goldedge templars or the tribal Yelmalians in the Far Point distribute those duties.

Then there are Orlanth and Yelm, Great Gods of the universe who combine various and possibly formerly independent traditions into a single cult. Horse nomad Yelm should have shamans rather than priests, and I don't think that urban Pelorian Yelm has many rune lords who aren't lords of their community, either.

In case of Orlanth, apart from Adventurous, also the Rex subcult has a Rune Lord rather than a Rune Priest. All three postions (the third being the Storm Voice) have mixed responsibiities - the Four Magic Weapons quest sounds like something done by a rune lord, but is part of the Thunderous subcult.

Karrg is presented as a subcult of Kyger Litor and the main outlet for an orthodox male troll. The uz don't have female lords, and they don't have male priests of Kyger Litor. Even the male shamans appear to be limited to allied deities (like Dehore) rather than to the Great Mother.

Aldrya has High King Elf for the lord position.

The Seven Mothers are a strange composite cult, inheriting the rune lord of Humakt via Yanafal and the earth priestess via Deezola.

 

In RQ3, rune lords didn't necessarily get reusable divine magic, and initiates never did. Instead, the Acolyte was introduced as an intermediary stage, the part-time god-talker. And RQ2 Runelord/Priests (common in the high-powered games beyond initiate level played by the Chaosium house campaign) would become Rune Lord/Acolytes under RQ rules.

When it became a general agreement that initiates should be able to regain their divine magic, although less often than specialists, one of the main limitations of rune lords was lifted. The other advantage of 1d10 divine intervention (rather than the RQ2 spell point type for priests) was lifted for some of the cults that had rune lords, and DI for priests was the same as for initiates (1d100), thus highly unlikely to succeed. (In all my years of playing RQ3, I only saw one successful initiate level DI, and that left the character at a POW of 3 for the rest of the campaign.)

 

I am somewhat curious how the cult of Pavis is going to be presented for RQG. The HeroQuest 2 / HQG treatment has placed Pavis in the realm of sorcery. Still, there are one son and up to six daughters of Pavis making up the priesthood, and when Balastor's axe returns to the public, one champion (lord). 

 

So, how is WoD going to tackle this? Spells aren't much of a problem, How do you manage Divine Intervention?

 

[Jon Hunter]

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There are few cults with both priests and lords, and probably still too many, mainly for backward compatibility. Assigning both a rune lord and a rune priest position to each and any cult (as per Rune Masters) was one of the features of RQ2 that was dropped in RQ3, and with some reason. Yelmalio should by any rights only have the rune lord position, but the priest position was probably retained because of the prominence of Yelmalio cultists from both tracks in popular publications like Pavis or Griffin Mountain. For Sun County, we have an amusing historical reason (Teshnos) for having both lords and priests, and the Sartar Sun Dome quite likely inherited those from the Praxian one. The cult in Balazar is a fringe organisation, and to be honest I don't have any idea how the Goldedge templars or the tribal Yelmalians in the Far Point distribute those duties.

Then there are Orlanth and Yelm, Great Gods of the universe who combine various and possibly formerly independent traditions into a single cult. Horse nomad Yelm should have shamans rather than priests, and I don't think that urban Pelorian Yelm has many rune lords who aren't lords of their community, either.

In case of Orlanth, apart from Adventurous, also the Rex subcult has a Rune Lord rather than a Rune Priest. All three postions (the third being the Storm Voice) have mixed responsibiities - the Four Magic Weapons quest sounds like something done by a rune lord, but is part of the Thunderous subcult.

Karrg is presented as a subcult of Kyger Litor and the main outlet for an orthodox male troll. The uz don't have female lords, and they don't have male priests of Kyger Litor. Even the male shamans appear to be limited to allied deities (like Dehore) rather than to the Great Mother.

Aldrya has High King Elf for the lord position.

The Seven Mothers are a strange composite cult, inheriting the rune lord of Humakt via Yanafal and the earth priestess via Deezola.

I like the variation in system, but i think one system to run all possibilities within rune magic, and let the distinctions of runelord/priest/shaman be run by the background plot characterisation and story.

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

58 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So, how is WoD going to tackle this? Spells aren't much of a problem, How do you manage Divine Intervention?

 

http://www.backtobalazar.com/wodglorantha-divine-intervention-rules/  one thing i'm very happy with and how it can be extended into divine ritual magic.

[davecake]

The strict Lord/Priest distinction hasn’t really been canonical Glorantha since Gods of Glorantha. That was 32 years ago, folks! Rather, we have a set of standard roles - martial leader, priestly magical specialist, and shaman among them - that get mixed and matched as appropriate to the cult. Removing the distinction in general, but retaining it for certain cults, is entirely appropriate. 

Paris is still nominally a divine cult - it’s just their divine magic is weak and dull (City Harmony and some standard spells, mostly) as befits a city god of a small city, while they also have access to some much more interesting sorcery. Like Lhankor Mhy, they have access to both, but not every priest will have interest in the extended study to become a good sorcerer.