Theory on Dragonewt Weirdness

[Darius West]

Do dragonewts even have emotions the way humans do?  I mean, obviously all animals have a spectrum of behavior that translates into emotions as humans understand them, and so too for other sentient species one must therefore suppose, but there is also considerable room for variance.  This is a species that enjoys a conscious recall of their past lives, and is therefore functionally immortal in every way that counts, while they stay on the path.  We also know that they are not as united as might be supposed.  They have subtle doctrinal differences in the interpretation of right action that are all but opaque to humans, except maybe Lhankor Mhy dragonewt specialists.  We also know that dragonewts are protective of their secrets, especially since the fall of the EWF.

Consider and example from KoDP; dragonewts waltz with a wasp nest balanced on their head.  Not perform some sort of dance; they waltz, three step in each others arms with wasp nests on their heads.  This is clearly evoking the Harmony rune and forms an overture to making contact.  The waltz itself represents joining in a co-ordinated effort with another, with overtures of amity, and there must be music, referencing the first harp, and the wasp nest represents everything that could go wrong if harmony is broken.  Next thing you know the dragonewts are sending envoys to chat with you and figure out what your values are, and then testing to see if you live up to them. That would seem to support the whole rune casting hypothesis.

Now for a human to even learn Auld Wyrmish you need to split your tongue and your brain.  Why is that necessary?  Well the split tongue may allow certain vocal manipulations, but the split brain is more telling, given what we know about human left/right brain processing.  Some people who have experienced this operation have even found themselves fighting their own hands as the other side of their brain decides on a course of action and is determined to carry it out.  Perhaps the division is a means of enforcing internal harmony, but not through the dominance of the ego but through negotiated process amounting to right action?  It is fair to say that Dragonewts seem to be a very right brain society, full of art, magic and ritual, and who are able to create a localized geography that reflects the dream-like right brain view of the world.

The dragonewts are supposed to be weird and opaque, even deliberately so.  Perhaps much of what they do is to actively and deliberately confuse human onlookers so as to avoid future EWF copycat activities and the disasters that brought?

 

[Joerg]

 

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Do dragonewts even have emotions the way humans do?  I mean, obviously all animals have a spectrum of behavior that translates into emotions as humans understand them, and so too for other sentient species one must therefore suppose, but there is also considerable room for variance. 

Dragonewts certainly have a different body structure from the Man Rune scheme which does appear to come with a bunch of emotions shared even with the Elder Races. Their brains probably would be different.

Asexual newtling bachelors may enter dragonewt service as "slaves", or in other words for a term of indenture which may face them with potentially lethal out of context situations and with the promise of some dragonewt magic as their reward for the rest of their bachelorhood and possibly for their child-rearing time as sexual adults. (The latter is the only thing that makes some sort of slight sense in giving them a biological advantage from that risky indenture.) If they require such an operation to function as assistant scout dragonewts, we aren't told about it.

A lot of human emotions are the biological consequence of providing child care.

Dragonewts as individuals don't provide nest care, and even as a society they are more the recipients of nest care than caretakers themselves. A bunch of unfinished individuals who are given some chores according to their degree of maturity, but who mostly go about growing up, and taking their sweet, unlimited time to do that. A lot of what they do is pre-pubescent and pubescent paradoxical activity.

Undoubtedly, our young children are full of emotions, overflowing with them, and puberty escalates that again. At a guess, so are dragonewts. Don't look much further for irrational behavior than this.

 

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

This is a species that enjoys a conscious recall of their past lives, and is therefore functionally immortal in every way that counts, while they stay on the path.  We also know that they are not as united as might be supposed.  They have subtle doctrinal differences in the interpretation of right action that are all but opaque to humans, except maybe Lhankor Mhy dragonewt specialists.  We also know that dragonewts are protective of their secrets, especially since the fall of the EWF.

The common conception of dragonewts as eternally wise and noble creatures.

And not children at play, if as some sort of very junior monks in a Himalayan monastery.

Dragonewt politics might share structure and interactions with self-organized youth groups before and in puberty.

 

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Now for a human to even learn Auld Wyrmish you need to split your tongue and your brain.  Why is that necessary?  Well the split tongue may allow certain vocal manipulations, but the split brain is more telling, given what we know about human left/right brain processing.  Some people who have experienced this operation have even found themselves fighting their own hands as the other side of their brain decides on a course of action and is determined to carry it out.  Perhaps the division is a means of enforcing internal harmony, but not through the dominance of the ego but through negotiated process amounting to right action?  It is fair to say that Dragonewts seem to be a very right brain society, full of art, magic and ritual, and who are able to create a localized geography that reflects the dream-like right brain view of the world.

Actually, the brain split would appear to lower the human abilty for empathy, whereas Auld Wyrmish supposedly has empathical components.

 

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The dragonewts are supposed to be weird and opaque, even deliberately so.  Perhaps much of what they do is to actively and deliberately confuse human onlookers so as to avoid future EWF copycat activities and the disasters that brought?

I don't think they care. Humans are a strange external factor in their games. Sometimes they can be fun, at other times they are annoying like hell.

[Darius West]

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Dragonewts certainly have a different body structure from the Man Rune scheme which does appear to come with a bunch of emotions shared even with the Elder Races. Their brains probably would be different.

 

Agree totally.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Asexual newtling bachelors may enter dragonewt service as "slaves", or in other words for a term of indenture which may face them with potentially lethal out of context situations and with the promise of some dragonewt magic as their reward for the rest of their bachelorhood and possibly for their child-rearing time as sexual adults. (The latter is the only thing that makes some sort of slight sense in giving them a biological advantage from that risky indenture.) If they require such an operation to function as assistant scout dragonewts, we aren't told about it.

4

An interesting point.  The relationship between newtlings and dragonewts definitely needs more press.  If mammal humans can learn dragon magic after surgery, it makes eminent sense that the amphibian newtlings have fewer problems with it.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

A lot of human emotions are the biological consequence of providing child care.

1

While there is truth in this statement, I worry that it has the potential for reductionism.  I could as easily argue for it as against it.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Dragonewts as individuals don't provide nest care, and even as a society they are more the recipients of nest care than caretakers themselves. A bunch of unfinished individuals who are given some chores according to their degree of maturity, but who mostly go about growing up, and taking their sweet, unlimited time to do that. A lot of what they do is pre-pubescent and pubescent paradoxical activity.

1

Don't dragonewts spend a lot of time basically defending their cities and clutches of eggs?  Isn't the breaking of dragonewt eggs by the True Golden Horde that set off the Dragonkill?  Who knows how much effort and reverence dragonewts devote to their eggs?  In a culture of reincarnation I can't imagine that attuning oneself to one's next rebirth wouldn't be important.  What little we know about dragonewts suggests that they do a LOT of rituals.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Undoubtedly, our young children are full of emotions, overflowing with them, and puberty escalates that again. At a guess, so are dragonewts. Don't look much further for irrational behavior than this.

1

Perhaps some dragonewt behavior can be explained by youthful exhuberance, especially in the crested community, but definitely not all.  Dragonewt violence often seems totally unexpected and random for example, moreso as they don't explain their actions.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

The common conception of dragonewts as eternally wise and noble creatures.

1

I must strenuously disagree with this.  Perhaps GMs and a few player characters respond this way to dragonewts, but it would not be a common view at all.  Most Gloranthans don't live in Genertela and have probably not even heard of dragonewts.  Those who DO live in Genertela probably have their opinion of dragonewts heavily colored by the genocide of their ancestors during the Dragonkill War.  I am sure that the general response is that dragonewts are weird, mercurial and treacherous.  That opinion is probably not well-informed, but how many humans regularly deal with dragonewts, even in Dragon Pass?  So how about the more cosmopolitain Lunars, I hear you ask, well, post 1625 I am sure they go from feeling the dragonewts are a colorful Elder race local to Dragon Pass to viewing them as terrorists armed with WMDs.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

And not children at play, if as some sort of very junior monks in a Himalayan monastery.

 

Dragonewts share more cultural similarities with Japanese Buddhism and the Aztecs I would suggest.  Also, not all dragonewts are crested, and the others are much more culturally  influential.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Dragonewt politics might share structure and interactions with self-organized youth groups before and in puberty.

 

I view Dragonewt society more as a system of heavily ritualized monastic city states under the control of the tailed priests, with the cresties being the serfs.  I don't think their society is as laissez faire as you suggest.  I think it is more dogmatic and structured, but in a structure reminiscent of architecture in dreams.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

Actually, the brain split would appear to lower the human abilty for empathy, whereas Auld Wyrmish supposedly has empathical components.

2

Au contraire, imagine having to empathically reconcile the two halves of your own brain into something approaching a reintegrated personality?  Remember also that the loss of empathy in a split brain is due to the dominance of the left brain in language production.  The right brain retains its empathy, it just can't speak.  This is a good metaphor for the alien and alienating mindset of the dragonewts I think.

On 2/13/2018 at 9:28 PM, Joerg said:

I don't think they care. Humans are a strange external factor in their games. Sometimes they can be fun, at other times they are annoying like hell.

 

I don't see the dragonewts as being merely playful.  That might be true of crested scout hunters out on their own, but not for the larger society.  If the dragonewts didn't care about humans the EWF would never have existed.  To suggest the EWF was merely dragonewts being playful doesn't gel with the history.

[Richard S.]

19 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Au contraire, imagine having to empathically reconcile the two halves of your own brain into something approaching a reintegrated personality?  Remember also that the loss of empathy in a split brain is due to the dominance of the left brain in language production.  The right brain retains its empathy, it just can't speak.  This is a good metaphor for the alien and alienating mindset of the dragonewts I think.

So what you're saying is that they only use their left brain? Interesting.

[Darius West]

3 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

So what you're saying is that they only use their left brain? Interesting.

Greg Stafford told me that he considered Dragonewts to be a right brain culture (by human standards) i.e. dreamy and weird but with enough reptile to still be ferocious.  He also told me that a GM should make them a strange deus ex machina, sometimes friendly, sometimes dangerous, but always weird, mystical and alienating.

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

An interesting point.  The relationship between newtlings and dragonewts definitely needs more press.  If mammal humans can learn dragon magic after surgery, it makes eminent sense that the amphibian newtlings have fewer problems with it.

I was trying to get the newtling benefit from potentially being eaten during indenture, and the only thing I can see making up for loss of yet asexual individuals is draconic magic for brood protection.

The dragonewts get helpers for whichever chores usually placed on the scouts, leaving the scouts more space for self-discovery.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

While there is truth in this statement, I worry that it has the potential for reductionism.  I could as easily argue for it as against it.

Child care is part of our primal programming, seated so deeply that we even care for creatures of other species displaying similar traits. Which is mercilessly exploited by the likes of Disney.

Maturing through childhood and puberty is in a very big portion learning to manage your emotions and to apply consideration before impulse.

 

And I find this an interesting parallel to the dragonewt conundrum, and to be honest one I just stumbled over, so I am still trying to get grips on this.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Don't dragonewts spend a lot of time basically defending their cities and clutches of eggs? 

Most of the time, they play at defending their cities and clutches of eggs. Their caretakers (including the dragonet aka Inhuman King) have taken measures to teach the neighbors the folly and Darwinian misstep of tampering with dragonewt nests.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Isn't the breaking of dragonewt eggs by the True Golden Horde that set off the Dragonkill? 

Yes. And note who fought (the adults), and who was protected (the hatchlings).

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Who knows how much effort and reverence dragonewts devote to their eggs? 

I have come to consider the mobile forms of the dragonewts not as hatched from the egg, but as emanations of the egg, similar to Dream Dragons. The real dragonewt never leaves the egg, only its emanations do. Hence they have a very strong urge to protect their origin. A dragonewt whose egg gets destroyed may continue to exist, but it is a pointless existence, much like an undead.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

In a culture of reincarnation I can't imagine that attuning oneself to one's next rebirth wouldn't be important.  What little we know about dragonewts suggests that they do a LOT of rituals.

Like I stated above, I don't think of the end of a mobile stage as a death, and the appearance of the improved model as a rebirth. It is the new OS, with the hard-/wetware adapted to its new purpose.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps some dragonewt behavior can be explained by youthful exhuberance, especially in the crested community, but definitely not all.  Dragonewt violence often seems totally unexpected and random for example, moreso as they don't explain their actions.

In my (definitely not 100% correct) parallel crested 'newts or scouts are the equivalent of Kindergarten, beaked newts are primary school, tailed priests are now entry level high school and winged priests get to grips with their puberty. That's referring to their emotional development, not any other abilities.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I must strenuously disagree with this.  Perhaps GMs and a few player characters respond this way to dragonewts, but it would not be a common view at all.  Most Gloranthans don't live in Genertela and have probably not even heard of dragonewts. 

Come on. People who have not even heard of dragonewts are irrelevant for this discussion.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Those who DO live in Genertela probably have their opinion of dragonewts heavily colored by the genocide of their ancestors during the Dragonkill War. 

That affects mainly the Pelorians, who had conflicting emotions towards the 'newts anyway.

The pro-newt Heortlings fled from the True Golden Horde, and found refuge in the Kingdom of Night. Their contingent sent to the aid of the 'newts may have been wiped out by the advancing horde along with the 'newt bodies that they aided. I don't think that there are many Heortlings south of Dragon Pass whose ancestors were eaten by the dragons. Those who lost ancestors to this war lost them to the True Golden Horde. When the dragons finally struck, the Golden Horde had reached modern Sun Dome County, making sure not to leave any live Heortlings in their back.

The way the dragons did end the Golden Horde did strike fear even in those whose folk had fought that ruthless band of murderers, abusers and pillagers, but I see that more like the Cold War trauma of the Overkill going off any day now.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I am sure that the general response is that dragonewts are weird, mercurial and treacherous. 

There was one moment of "treason", when the (aberrant) draconic elite of the EWF was eliminated over night. Now, few of the Heortlings whose ancestors survived the Dragonkill would confess to their specific ancestors having been betrayed. It is a bit like admitting that you had dedicated Nazis as ancestors. (Trust me, I know how _that_ feels.)

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

That opinion is probably not well-informed, but how many humans regularly deal with dragonewts, even in Dragon Pass?  So how about the more cosmopolitain Lunars, I hear you ask, well, post 1625 I am sure they go from feeling the dragonewts are a colorful Elder race local to Dragon Pass to viewing them as terrorists armed with WMDs.

They are alien, have hardly understood powers, and they don't accept the Great Message of the Goddess. What is there not to demonize?

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Dragonewts share more cultural similarities with Japanese Buddhism and the Aztecs I would suggest.  Also, not all dragonewts are crested, and the others are much more culturally  influential.

Yes. And I say that even Tailed Priests are still pre-pubertary in their development, or just entering the great final re-wiring of both brain and personality. I don't know about 7-year old future monks in Japanese Buddhism, which is why I chose the Himalaya example.

The Aztecs already provide a lot to the material culture of the 'newts. I don't see much how Aztec culture really maps on 'newt proto-culture. The Aztecs were a highly productive agricultural society, something absolutely alien to the 'newts. The Buddhism parallels work inasfar they require a detachment from the material world. I don't see that in any Aztec parallel.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I view Dragonewt society more as a system of heavily ritualized monastic city states under the control of the tailed priests, with the cresties being the serfs.  I don't think their society is as laissez faire as you suggest.  I think it is more dogmatic and structured, but in a structure reminiscent of architecture in dreams.

I see more Lord of the Flies than Mary Poppins in the dragonewt upbringing. A heavy side portion of Peter Pan.

But, like I said, this is a recent insight. Still trying to work it out.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Au contraire, imagine having to empathically reconcile the two halves of your own brain into something approaching a reintegrated personality?  Remember also that the loss of empathy in a split brain is due to the dominance of the left brain in language production.  The right brain retains its empathy, it just can't speak.  This is a good metaphor for the alien and alienating mindset of the dragonewts I think.

I am considering myself to be rather divided in terms of interconnections already, and empathically challenged. I feel that makes me less qualified to learn a language with empathic components. I did learn quite a few languages, but in a way that wouldn't aid me with Auld Wyrmish.

 

2 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I don't see the dragonewts as being merely playful.  That might be true of crested scout hunters out on their own, but not for the larger society.  If the dragonewts didn't care about humans the EWF would never have existed.  To suggest the EWF was merely dragonewts being playful doesn't gel with the history.

It was a huge and for a while fascinating ant farm. Then the ants got uppity, got things wrong, and even tried to interfere with the dragonewts' own progression, so the ant farm had to go. Good thing that they had an arrangement for getting rid of those pests from early on in this game.

The EWF proper lasted how many years? Hunting and Waltzing bands started in the 590ies, and roused the curiosity of the 'newts. By 650, they had pet humans who sort of approached an understanding of the games the dragonewts played, and these humans had a strife with other humans which lasted for about a century, before they established themselves as the leaders of the local humans, and began to contribute to the dragon dream in new, colorful and for a while interesting ways. Think an introduction of psychedelic images, movies and music. How long did that last in human culture? Dragonewt culture moves slower by a factor of about 100.

So, between 750 and 1020 there were humans who did dragonewt things, in somewhat different and for a while fascinating ways, providing some creature comforts to the 'newts, expanding the range of their dream (their Peter Pan realm) greatly. They tempted the 'newts into establishing new nests.

I do wonder where these nests came from. Were they taken out of existing nests and transplanted elsewhere, or did new dragonewt eggs get created to populate the EWF lands?

And when those new nests (and the irreplaceable eggs therein) were destroyed, how did that change the dragonewt perspective (and the dragonewts' caretakers' perspectives) of the benefits of the EWF?

Considering the difference between the Kralorelan and the Kerofinelan dragonewts, the Kralorelan ones claim to have weathered the Gods War in Strength, whereas the Kerofinelan ones did so in weakness. It is well established that the Kerofinelan ones participated in I Fought We Won, which might be seen as weakness. It is also a fact that dinosaurs are common where the Kerofinelan nests are, but are rather rare or even unknown in Kralorela.

It is possible that the 'newts might have hoped to return the victims of weakness - the dinosaurs - into the dragon path through their EWF experiment. They did get all manner of creatures put onto a dragon path, but reclaiming dinos may have been a failure.

But yes, 400 years observing humans is what passes for a game for creatures whose life-span is basically unlimited while they refrain from maturing into an adult. Another Peter Pan element here...

[Darius West]

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Child care is part of our primal programming, seated so deeply that we even care for creatures of other species displaying similar traits. Which is mercilessly exploited by the likes of Disney.

Bah! Pure mammalian prejudice!  Ask David Icke what our reptilian overlords think of such attitudes.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Maturing through childhood and puberty is in a very big portion learning to manage your emotions and to apply consideration before impulse.

Agreed, if we are talking about humans.  Reptilian brains don't develop the same way.  Reptiles lack a limbic system and a neocortex, hence they don't have the same emotional responses.  Now as we know nothing about Dragonewt brains, other than the fact that a human can only mimic a dragonewt brain after a split brain operation.  That early life is a time of learning is not something I will disagree with, but the issue is what is learned.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Yes. And note who fought (the adults), and who was protected (the hatchlings).

The adults being True Dragons.  Good point.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

I have come to consider the mobile forms of the dragonewts not as hatched from the egg, but as emanations of the egg, similar to Dream Dragons. The real dragonewt never leaves the egg, only its emanations do. Hence they have a very strong urge to protect their origin. A dragonewt whose egg gets destroyed may continue to exist, but it is a pointless existence, much like an undead.

I seem to recall reading that the Inhuman King actually laid the eggs in the early literature.  More an inhuman queen.  Needless to say that I prefer this idea of yours.  It makes a lot more sense.  I wonder if this connects with the Egglord and/or the Pseudocosmic Egg of Nysalor? 

On the other hand, we have the whole issue of dragonewts who become dinosaurs.  Do they mis-manifest at their eggs, and then wander off?  Dinosaurs are fully sexual and breed and lay eggs also, and thus are bypassing many stages of dragonewt development in that regard, and it isn't as if they lay emanation eggs.  Not even magisaurs.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Like I stated above, I don't think of the end of a mobile stage as a death, and the appearance of the improved model as a rebirth. It is the new OS, with the hard-/wetware adapted to its new purpose.

Hmm... I don't think this is a good analogy.  Dragonewts aren't closet Mostali.  I see it more as a progression through different syllabuses of monastic training, with the emergent physical form being proof of completion.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

In my (definitely not 100% correct) parallel crested 'newts or scouts are the equivalent of Kindergarten, beaked newts are primary school, tailed priests are now entry level high school and winged priests get to grips with their puberty. That's referring to their emotional development, not any other abilities.

Okay, that's a better analogy.  I think the challenges of these stages are quite different for humans and dragonewts though.  Humans pass through these phases in a few years, while dragonewts may well take centuries, not to mention mis-steps into wrong paths like becoming dinosaurs.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Come on. People who have not even heard of dragonewts are irrelevant for this discussion.

On the contrary, your statement was that the common Gloranthan conception is that dragonewts are eternally wise and noble creatures is decidedly false.  Most people in Glorantha have probably never heard of Dragonewts, and their response will be "wtf is a dragonewt?"  (or equivalent).  That makes total ignorance the "default setting" for most people and races, and I think, given their penchant for obscurantism, that probably suits the dragonewts quite well. Truth is never irrelevant, and ignorance is still context.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

When the dragons finally struck, the True Golden Horde had reached modern Sun Dome County, making sure not to leave any live Heortlings in their back.

The chances of any invading human army committing such a perfect genocide are extremely unlikely.  There would have been multiple pockets of survivors and refugees, and even cadres of EWF forces hiding out.  As proof, consider that Delecti's Ruin used to be the EWF capital as far as I remember, and he called in the waters to provide an obstacle for the TGH.  There is also the Cannon Cult in Dwarf Run who survived the Dragonkill.  I have little doubt the TGH wanted to commit total genocide, but I think the work was completed by the dragons.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

There was one moment of "treason", when the (aberrant) draconic elite of the EWF was eliminated over night. Now, few of the Heortlings whose ancestors survived the Dragonkill would confess to their specific ancestors having been betrayed. It is a bit like admitting that you had dedicated Nazis as ancestors. (Trust me, I know how _that_ feels.)

 I don't think that the EWF survivors would have been so very hated by the other Orlanthi.  Admittedly many would probably have had to accept thralldom due to their post Dragonkill refugee poverty, but I am pretty sure that other tribes would have heard of their tribulations and seen that as more than sufficient punishment.  The fact that survivors made it to Shadow Plateau suggests that the nucleus of some clans may have maintained knowledge of draconic secrets other than how to kill them.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

They are alien, have hardly understood powers, and they don't accept the Great Message of the Goddess. What is there not to demonize?

LOL agreed.  Of course they are also a really bad enemy to choose as is demonstrated when the Dragons go all sacred utuma on Rufelza's face at the close of the age.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

The Aztecs already provide a lot to the material culture of the 'newts. I don't see much how Aztec culture really maps on 'newt proto-culture. The Aztecs were a highly productive agricultural society, something absolutely alien to the 'newts. The Buddhism parallels work inasfar they require a detachment from the material world. I don't see that in any Aztec parallel.

I seem to recall that the Dragonewts do have some weird dragon crop that they grow.  On the other hand. lizards are mainly carnivores.  Perhaps they feed the crop to small furry animals and then eat the SFAs like the newts are pet snakes?  If I had to signal a major cultural difference, it would be that the Dragon's Eye lacks canals and a lake, which was Tenochtitlan's major transportation.  I recall an illustration of a tricycle cart in the shape of a dragonewt rune.  I suspect such would only be used for rituals, as it would be horribly unstable and terrible for carting loads.  I can't see the dragonewts not performing agriculture, as it is common to all settled cultures and even a number of nomadic ones.  Even obligate carnivores benefit from controlling a plant based food source that can then be fed to meat animals.

I would also draw your attention to the sacred utuma as a sort of positive seppuku ritual.  Seppuku, also known as Hara Kiri (Hara being center or belly, kiri meaning to cut) was performed as a means of atonement for failure in Japan, and as a means of passing on to the next incarnation.  Due to their martial training and the focus of the attention onto the center of gravity, just below the belly, that location was seen as the locus of the spirit, and cutting the belly was the means of liberating the spirit.  Of course for dragonewts it might be a more positive process.  On the other hand, performing full ritual dismemberment is not a one-dragonewt job, and no doubt would get performed in public a la the Aztecs, with richly adorned priests in full participation up to their scaly elbows in blood with their gorey utumas.  I imagine that this will be done to cresties who are straying from the path before they slip into dinosaur mind, and as a means of purification by others.  The issue then becomes, as the dismembered limbs of the dead dragonewts are cast down the steps of the pyramid, what becomes of them?  The Aztecs used to eat them, as good sources of protein were scarce in that part of the world at the time.  I imagine such rituals would surprise any outsiders as much as equivalent trollish cannibalistic behavior.  Of course there is no mention of dragonewt cannibalism, but it seems like a good way to avoid letting your dead body get used for dragonewt skin armor, and more utilitarian than wasteful cremation.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

I see more Lord of the Flies than Mary Poppins in the dragonewt upbringing. A heavy side portion of Peter Pan.

But, like I said, this is a recent insight. Still trying to work it out.

I get what you are saying.  I see a situation where the "toddlers" (crested 'newts) do all the labour, watched over by the beaks, in a semi-feudal order similar to the old system of those who work, those who fight, and those who pray.  The only get to play after they have done their chores and eaten all their friend.  A society perhaps like Lemony Snicket's A series of unfortunate events, where the children get killed a lot more often and without much consequence perhaps? Definitely Lord of the Flies though, as you suggest.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

I am considering myself to be rather divided in terms of interconnections already, and empathically challenged. I feel that makes me less qualified to learn a language with empathic components. I did learn quite a few languages, but in a way that wouldn't aid me with Auld Wyrmish.

Don't worry, we'll just realign your perceptions by splitting your brain and your tongue and everything will become clear.  We aren't just doing this major invasive brain surgery for shits and giggles, honest.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

It was a huge and for a while fascinating ant farm. Then the ants got uppity, got things wrong, and even tried to interfere with the dragonewts' own progression, so the ant farm had to go. Good thing that they had an arrangement for getting rid of those pests from early on in this game.

Actually things weren't really an issue until the TGH started attacking the nests and smashing the eggs.  Then shit got real.  As to the re-purposing the defunct jolanti of the rockwoods into the wings of the trans-Genertela mega dragon... seems legit?

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

The EWF proper lasted how many years? Hunting and Waltzing bands started in the 590ies, and roused the curiosity of the 'newts. By 650, they had pet humans who sort of approached an understanding of the games the dragonewts played, and these humans had a strife with other humans which lasted for about a century, before they established themselves as the leaders of the local humans, and began to contribute to the dragon dream in new, colorful and for a while interesting ways. Think an introduction of psychedelic images, movies and music. How long did that last in human culture? Dragonewt culture moves slower by a factor of about 100.

This does rather beg the question of whether humans who adopted the Dragonewt path reincarnated onto it.  Similarly, can dinosaurs be re-assimilated back into the dragonewt path?  We know the whole Orlanthi story about "A dragon is following you" was a precursor to Orlanth's fight with dragons, but ultimately led to his initiation into their magic.  It is rare for cultural traffic to be one way, and it may be that the EWF was an important spiritual lesson for both parties.  There is some evidence that the dragonewts were trying to teach other races their insights even during the First Council.  It is very likely that Cragspider knows a lot about dragon magic, given that she controls the black dragon.  I see their behavior as deliberate, ritualized and obtuse rather than merely playful.  I think the dragonewts have a spiritual-political agenda on Genertela that goes beyond running a creche.

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

So, between 750 and 1020 there were humans who did dragonewt things, in somewhat different and for a while fascinating ways, providing some creature comforts to the 'newts, expanding the range of their dream (their Peter Pan realm) greatly. They tempted the 'newts into establishing new nests.I do wonder where these nests came from. Were they taken out of existing nests and transplanted elsewhere, or did new dragonewt eggs get created to populate the EWF lands? And when those new nests (and the irreplaceable eggs therein) were destroyed, how did that change the dragonewt perspective (and the dragonewts' caretakers' perspectives) of the benefits of the EWF?

This is where the egg laying of the Inhuman King came in (from memory).  The Inhuman king (queen?) lays loads of eggs, and they trans-shipped them.  On the other hand, a bit like teenagers getting pregnant, the results weren't great.  Many of the new nests began to develop odd ideas not in keeping with Dragons Eye orthodoxy.  I am pretty sure there is another Dragon's Eye style "main base" in Ralios too?

On 2/15/2018 at 5:21 AM, Joerg said:

Considering the difference between the Kralorelan and the Kerofinelan dragonewts, the Kralorelan ones claim to have weathered the Gods War in Strength, whereas the Kerofinelan ones did so in weakness. It is well established that the Kerofinelan ones participated in I Fought We Won, which might be seen as weakness. It is also a fact that dinosaurs are common where the Kerofinelan nests are, but are rather rare or even unknown in Kralorela.

It often seems as if the rest of Genertela is constantly trying to copy Kralorela and failing miserably.  Nysalor gets built to copy the Kralori Emperor.  Fail.  the EWF is formed and sort of mimics the relationship between dragonewts and humans in Kralorela.  Dragonkill. Fail.  On the other hand, we don't really know if there are dinosaurs in Kralorela.  Just because they haven't been mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist.  On the other hand, with the alleged close harmony between Kralori humans and dragonewts there is a lot less apparent confusion.  I have heard others on this forum express some doubts about the Kralori arrangement being a good fit though.  Both Kralori and dragonewt societies seem to be pretty homeostatic.  As to whether dragonewt participation in I Fought We Won was weakness, it is hard to say.  I am more interested in whether the dragonewts participated in the Ritual of the Net and the creation of Time.  Of all the species, the dragonewts seem least touched by Time and Entropy both.

[Joerg]

Wow, someone else writes diatribes as long as mine...

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Bah! Pure mammalian prejudice!  Ask David Icke what our reptilian overlords think of such attitudes.

Ok, go into that crocodile nest to get some eggs while the mother watches. I'll happily sit by and mop up the remains... Not all reptilians are like sea turtles.

 

But then, dragonewts are not reptilian. They are warm-blooded. One might classify them as a variant branch of the dinosaurs, one that eschewed the feathers.

(Note that during the ages of the dinosaurs, lots of other big tetrapodes with more reptilian traits existed, too. Neither ichtyosaurs nor mosasaurs nor pterosaurs are any close relation to the ancestors of our birds. And there were monster-sized crocodilians, too.)

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Agreed, if we are talking about humans.  Reptilian brains don't develop the same way.  Reptiles lack a limbic system and a neocortex, hence they don't have the same emotional responses.  Now as we know nothing about Dragonewt brains, other than the fact that a human can only mimic a dragonewt brain after a split brain operation. 

Forget about reptilians. The dragonewts are evolutionary as far from the rock lizards as are birds or mammals if you insist on putting them onto the same evolutionary tree as terrestrial organisms. A relationship that doesn't work for Glorantha, anyway, but I'll play along since I have used dragonewts in a RQ setting of mine which did obey evolution for the most part.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That early life is a time of learning is not something I will disagree with, but the issue is what is learned.

And what is racial memory that slowly emerges through learned things proven wrong by this.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I seem to recall reading that the Inhuman King actually laid the eggs in the early literature.  More an inhuman queen.  Needless to say that I prefer this idea of yours.  It makes a lot more sense.  I wonder if this connects with the Egglord and/or the Pseudocosmic Egg of Nysalor? 

My first encounter with these critters was the Dragon Pass boardgame. I might confuse this with the Glorantha booklet of the RQ3 DeLuxe box, but I think it said they were the neotenic offspring of immature (True) dragons. RQ2 misleadingly talks about warm-blooded reptiles, but that was not in the original source.

I think that Lawrence Whitaker did have some short insider notes when he wrote the MRQ book on dragonewts. One of the better MRQ publications, and while some interpretations may have since been re-visited and some details never confirmed, I think that that presentation of the last-born and horny female dragon that left clutches of neotenic dragonewts all over the place may be Word from Greg, or possibly word from Stephen Martin who had fairly full access to Greg's Glorantha notes at the time.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, we have the whole issue of dragonewts who become dinosaurs.  Do they mis-manifest at their eggs, and then wander off? 

I suppose they hatch for (not so) good, destroying their egg in the process. Dragon Pass had something about some of them redeeming themselves spinning a cocoon like an egg, from which they emerge as Pteranodons, to an almost dragon-like existance.

No idea about the magisaurs, though, which start out effectively as defect scouts.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Dinosaurs are fully sexual and breed and lay eggs also, and thus are bypassing many stages of dragonewt development in that regard, and it isn't as if they lay emanation eggs.  Not even magisaurs.

That's one of the draconic traits that they lost. Dinosaurs don't emanate anything (the Trachodon/giant magisaur regimental spirits in the boardgame are something different).

 

New OS:

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Hmm... I don't think this is a good analogy.  Dragonewts aren't closet Mostali. 

Mostali aren't computers or Pratchett-style golems, either. What I meant by this comparison is that the new incarnation has a difference in basic outlooks and thought processes. A lot of identity (and especially dragonewt social identity) is retained, but if the individual progressed as supposed, it works closer to the draconic Absolute.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I see it more as a progression through different syllabuses of monastic training, with the emergent physical form being proof of completion.

In my model the physical form is an expression of the slowly forming mind, so we aren't that far apart in that aspect.

 

Comparison to human development of personality and mental capacities as age groups:

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Okay, that's a better analogy.  I think the challenges of these stages are quite different for humans and dragonewts though.  Humans pass through these phases in a few years, while dragonewts may well take centuries, not to mention mis-steps into wrong paths like becoming dinosaurs.

Oh, I agree. The analogy is far from 100%, it is just a hint at the mental and moral capacity of the developing mind.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, your statement was that the common Gloranthan conception is that dragonewts are eternally wise and noble creatures is decidedly false.  Most people in Glorantha have probably never heard of Dragonewts, and their response will be "wtf is a dragonewt?"  (or equivalent). 

Better than two thirds of the Genertelans plus the Teleosans have heard about the dragonewts. The original Malkioni colonies may be the great exception, but they too were involved in the opposition to the Middle Sea Empire by the EWF. While the EWF wasn't dragonewts but began as humans imitating dragonewts, some memory of that plus the world-wide experience of dragons rising everywhere, even where you never expected any, to fly to Dragon Pass would be in the common lore. Pamaltelan's might wonder why all those ginormous beasts suddenly manifesting flew north without knowing anything about dragonewts. Vithelans might be less ignorant, but only slightly so.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

That makes total ignorance the "default setting" for most people and races, and I think, given their penchant for obscurantism, that probably suits the dragonewts quite well. Truth is never irrelevant, and ignorance is still context.

In Pelanda, far from any living dragonewt nest, where the last contact with that species was the Dragonkill war, there are nonetheless mentions of dragonewts in their myth how humans failed to participate in immortality. 

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

The chances of any invading human army committing such a perfect genocide are extremely unlikely.  There would have been multiple pockets of survivors and refugees, and even cadres of EWF forces hiding out. 

If one can believe the numbers, there was one invading soldier for each human inhabitant of Dragon Pass. Yes, a few humans found refuge as slaves of Isidilian, and Delecti's magic unmade an entire piece of the land, but apart from that, the human lands were scoured for good. The wilderness obviously a lot less, which explains how the Aramites (stalwart warriors for the EWF in the Machine War) held out.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

As proof, consider that Delecti's Ruin used to be the EWF capital as far as I remember,

First time I see this claim.

The EWF inherited the location of their council from the council of Orlanthland, the entity which started into the Second Age receiving tribute from occupied Dara Happa. It is quite possible that that council met at an itinerary of holy mountains around Dragon Pass, according to the Season. These holy men (the chief priests) would likely have been accomplished flyers.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

and he called in the waters to provide an obstacle for the TGH.  There is also the Cannon Cult in Dwarf Run who survived the Dragonkill.  I have little doubt the TGH wanted to commit total genocide, but I think the work was completed by the dragons.

Sure. When the dragons struck, all humans were targets. Those who were friendly had fled or perished otherwise, or were waiting for worse fates, like slavery.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

 I don't think that the EWF survivors would have been so very hated by the other Orlanthi.  Admittedly many would probably have had to accept thralldom due to their post Dragonkill refugee poverty, but I am pretty sure that other tribes would have heard of their tribulations and seen that as more than sufficient punishment.  The fact that survivors made it to Shadow Plateau suggests that the nucleus of some clans may have maintained knowledge of draconic secrets other than how to kill them.

Sure. There will have been individuals from most clans in Nochet or in similar mundane places of Kethaela at any time, who may have had some half-correct family tradition about what was forgotten 78 years earlier. In comparison, that's the memory how the US got dragged into World War 2, from now. What do you know about the conditions at that time, about the political constellations and the rivalries? And that's without a total manhunt which not even the Katharan crusade or the elimination of the Knights Templar achieved.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I seem to recall that the Dragonewts do have some weird dragon crop that they grow. 

No, that was the human (or rather yet human, though already quite draconic in look and habit - think Elderlings from Robin Hobb's Golden Fool / Living Ships series) population of Dragon Pass who now had this strange crop instead of the good old Ernaldan food. Which they returned to after 1042, which possibly was made easier because quite a large portion of their population did not survive that assassination.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand. lizards are mainly carnivores. 

That lizard thing again... and while there are a lot of insectivores among the smaller reptiles and prominent predators among the larger ones, there are also tortoises and sea turtles, iguanas and Galapagos sea dragons which are strictly herbivorous.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Perhaps they feed the crop to small furry animals and then eat the SFAs like the newts are pet snakes?  If I had to signal a major cultural difference, it would be that the Dragon's Eye lacks canals and a lake, which was Tenochtitlan's major transportation.  I recall an illustration of a tricycle cart in the shape of a dragonewt rune.  I suspect such would only be used for rituals, as it would be horribly unstable and terrible for carting loads.  I can't see the dragonewts not performing agriculture, as it is common to all settled cultures and even a number of nomadic ones.  Even obligate carnivores benefit from controlling a plant based food source that can then be fed to meat animals.

Scouts are herbivorous gatherers, and provide for the omnivorous higher stages above warrior (mainly tailed priests, winged priests spend most of their existence in meditation which obviates such trivialities as intake of food).

There is no evidence of any pastoral or herding activity apart from keeping demibird steeds and exerting some control over the "wild" dinosaur herds. Those may be as "wild" as the reindeer in Scandinavia (meaning they all belong to herds that have registered owners, even when they appear solitary in the wild).

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would also draw your attention to the sacred utuma as a sort of positive seppuku ritual.  Seppuku, also known as Hara Kiri (Hara being center or belly, kiri meaning to cut) was performed as a means of atonement for failure in Japan, and as a means of passing on to the next incarnation.  Due to their martial training and the focus of the attention onto the center of gravity, just below the belly, that location was seen as the locus of the spirit, and cutting the belly was the means of liberating the spirit.  Of course for dragonewts it might be a more positive process.  On the other hand, performing full ritual dismemberment is not a one-dragonewt job, and no doubt would get performed in public a la the Aztecs, with richly adorned priests in full participation up to their scaly elbows in blood with their gorey utumas.  I imagine that this will be done to cresties who are straying from the path before they slip into dinosaur mind, and as a means of purification by others.  The issue then becomes, as the dismembered limbs of the dead dragonewts are cast down the steps of the pyramid, what becomes of them?  The Aztecs used to eat them, as good sources of protein were scarce in that part of the world at the time.  I imagine such rituals would surprise any outsiders as much as equivalent trollish cannibalistic behavior.  Of course there is no mention of dragonewt cannibalism, but it seems like a good way to avoid letting your dead body get used for dragonewt skin armor, and more utilitarian than wasteful cremation.

Even if this was true for Dragon's Eye (which I don't think it is), how would they do something similar in the lesser cities in such different locations like the city among the Quivin Peaks, in the Stinkwood, at the foot of the Indigo Mountains or opposite of Dunstop?

Eating the dead bodies of their utuma'ed or otherwise demised fellow newts might be a thing, although I find the concept of autophagy - the newly hatched newt devours what is left of its previous body - as irritatingly different. Something like this was hinted at in connection to those dragonewt armor stories.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Don't worry, we'll just realign your perceptions by splitting your brain and your tongue and everything will become clear.  We aren't just doing this major invasive brain surgery for shits and giggles, honest.

Sign here, here, and this property release form.

Gouging out someone's eyes will alter that person's perceptions, too...

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Actually things weren't really an issue until the TGH started attacking the nests and smashing the eggs.  Then shit got real.  As to the re-purposing the defunct jolanti of the rockwoods into the wings of the trans-Genertela mega dragon... seems legit?

Those awakened jolanti of Aggar are the least of my doubts. How did they hope to make the Elder Giants of the Easter Rockwoods comply?

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This does rather beg the question of whether humans who adopted the Dragonewt path reincarnated onto it. 

From what I have read about the EWF mystics, utuma was a one time only option, preferably when you achieved True Dragonhood. At least that's how the most successful draconic mystic, Obduran the Flyer, did it.

Obduran was the first Wyrm's Mind Collective leader who was an Orlanthi, but there were quite a lot of draconic mystics who had been at their meditations and transformations before him. Obduran may have overtaken them, but I think only a minority of the most advanced draconic mystics participated in the Third Council, leaving someone comprably junior like Ingolf Dragonfriend to take that position with all its entanglements.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Similarly, can dinosaurs be re-assimilated back into the dragonewt path? 

According to the Dragon Pass rules, Pteranodons are redeemed dinosaurs. Still not quite dragons, but way better than e.g. brontos or triceratopi (or however you form the plural).

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

We know the whole Orlanthi story about "A dragon is following you" was a precursor to Orlanth's fight with dragons, but ultimately led to his initiation into their magic. 

Somehow it is important that the dragon follows unnoticed. Which may be a way to say that it is Orlanth's Other, the imperceptible part of one's self that one cannot acknowledge without mystical realisation, like Yelm's shadow. Or, in opposed pairs like Rufelza and Sheng Seleris or Arkat and Nysalor, which they can acknowledge only through masks even with mystical awareness.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

It is rare for cultural traffic to be one way, and it may be that the EWF was an important spiritual lesson for both parties. 

An experiment gone wrong, so one eradicates the ant farm. "This is not how to proceed, even though that Obduran specimen performed brilliantly."

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

There is some evidence that the dragonewts were trying to teach other races their insights even during the First Council.  It is very likely that Cragspider knows a lot about dragon magic, given that she controls the black dragon. 

Cragspider may have a primeval understanding of the world beyond so irritating things like facts through her one-ness with Arachne Solara. The ancestors of the dragons may have met the Goddess Glorantha during Creation, and they may have come to an agreement for the goddess to serve as the nesting ground (for eggs that hatch as True Dragons, without that neotenic nonsense).

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I see their behavior as deliberate, ritualized and obtuse rather than merely playful.  I think the dragonewts have a spiritual-political agenda on Genertela that goes beyond running a creche.

Possibly two such agendas. The Kralori dragonewts elevate a human exarch to their functional equivalent of the Inhuman King (like currently Godunya). Their experiment with Immanent Mastery (the path also pursued by Isgangdrang aka Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon) backfired just like the one in Dragon pass did, in the person of Shang-Hsa May-his-Name-be-Cursed. Their correction of that mistake took longer than the 1042 assassination.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is where the egg laying of the Inhuman King came in (from memory).  The Inhuman king (queen?) lays loads of eggs, and they trans-shipped them. 

Sandy Petersen once said that in order for new Dragonewt eggs to be produced, individuals from all age stages need to participate, which puts a stopper on expansion of dragonet-less populations, and puts Godunya into a strange sexual position.

If this was the case, so what about the dragonet-less Kralori 'newts? No new eggs for them?

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the other hand, a bit like teenagers getting pregnant, the results weren't great.  Many of the new nests began to develop odd ideas not in keeping with Dragons Eye orthodoxy.  I am pretty sure there is another Dragon's Eye style "main base" in Ralios too?

Not to my knowledge, and the dinosaur-born nomadic nests of the Elder Wilds may also be more of a rumor than a fact - while dragonewts are repeatedly mentioned in the history of the Elder Wilds, none are mentioned for the now of the place, and they don't appear in the population listing, either.

The only dragonet apart from the Inhuman King of Dragon Pass that I know about is the ruler of Ryzel on the border to Ramalia.

 

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

It often seems as if the rest of Genertela is constantly trying to copy Kralorela and failing miserably.  Nysalor gets built to copy the Kralori Emperor.  Fail.  the EWF is formed and sort of mimics the relationship between dragonewts and humans in Kralorela.  Dragonkill. Fail.  On the other hand, we don't really know if there are dinosaurs in Kralorela.  Just because they haven't been mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist.  On the other hand, with the alleged close harmony between Kralori humans and dragonewts there is a lot less apparent confusion.  I have heard others on this forum express some doubts about the Kralori arrangement being a good fit though.  Both Kralori and dragonewt societies seem to be pretty homeostatic.  As to whether dragonewt participation in I Fought We Won was weakness, it is hard to say. 

Interesting theory. But then equating Rashoran (the Godtime incarnation of Nysalor) with Metsyla is kind of obvious.

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am more interested in whether the dragonewts participated in the Ritual of the Net and the creation of Time.  Of all the species, the dragonewts seem least touched by Time and Entropy both.

Why would there have been dragonewts in Hell? A dragonewt whose body dies goes straight to the egg, and doesn't receive 400$ for passing the start field. No detour through Hell required. That would be Death,