Theory on Dragonewt Weirdness

[Richard S.]

Now I know that for posting this I'm probably going to be instantly shot down by people far more educated about Glorantha than me, as that is the nature of this community, but considering barely anyone seems willing to try and write anything about Dragonewts I figured my theory was worth a shot.

So in the new RQ, we have a power rune tree similar to the personality pairs of Pendragon, correct? And if I'm remembering the Quickstart correctly, invoking a rune entails a potential bonus to it, correct? So, my theory is, based on the new RQ rules and a few articles on Dragonewts from the old Issaries site, that one -note I say one reason, not the only reason - of the reasons they behave so erratic and strangely is because every time one of their power runes is used and increases they are obligated by their religion to do everything in their power to rebalance it, to perform Right Action. And because dragonewts without spiritual balance are constantly trying to invoke runes their personality actually tend to be much more extreme than your average human's, resulting in extremely self-contradictory actions and unpredictable behavior patterns.

[Yelm's Light]

Yeah, I noticed that little dichotomy too.    Unless dragon magic doesn't rely on a Rune casting roll, I don't see how to get around it.  So unless the latter holds true, paradoxically all dragonewts following the path of Right Action are mediocre casters.

The big issue with being a 'rogue' dragonewt is that, depending on how extreme they get, not only do they lose the ability to gain more power by metamorphosing, some can't even be reborn at all.

[g33k]

Hmmm ,,.,  Interesting speculations!  VERY interesting.  If I may be allowed to play, too...

Maybe the Dragonewt secret (or one of their secrets) is to go beyond 100%.  Maybe, once they get each and every pair of runes to 50%... they can go to 55/55 instead of 55/45.

And onward, eventually, to 100/100 ... and even higher !

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Yelm's Light said:

Yeah, I noticed that little dichotomy too.    Unless dragon magic doesn't rely on a Rune casting roll, I don't see how to get around it.  So unless the latter holds true, paradoxically all dragonewts following the path of Right Action are mediocre casters.

The big issue with being a 'rogue' dragonewt is that, depending on how extreme they get, not only do they lose the ability to gain more power by metamorphosing, some can't even be reborn at all.

Well dragon magic isn't quite rune magic. As the entire point is to seperate from reality I would think that the ability to use it an entirely seperate skill. Any imbalance between powers both impairs the ability to cast and increases the risk of devolution, providing even more motivation to act extremely in an attempt to balance. That's an interesting paradox: to become balanced one must be Imbalanced.

[soltakss]

I like the idea of the Dragonewt Gap in their Personality Traits and use it in my games.

So, whereas a human might have Brave 01-70/71-100 Cowardly, a Dragonewt might have Brave 01-69/70-71/72-100 Cowardly, thus introducing a gap. If the Dragonewt rolls against Brave/Cowardly and rolls inside the gap, then it has behaved correctly, according to Right Action, and can choose whethwer to be Brave/Cowardly/Neither, otherwise the Dragonewt is forced to be Brave or Cowardly and should do something later to correct actions.

As a Dragonewt gains experience, the gap can increase, meaning it has more control over emotions. In my Glorantha, each Stage much challenge and master a number of pairs of emotions, in other words having a gap of 90 or more. Once those emotions are mastered it can progress to the next stage where it must challenge and master another group of pairs. A Ruler/Full Priest Dragonewt has mastered most pairs, an Inhuman King/Dragonet has mastered all pairs, so almost always follows Right Action (01 or 100 still counts as failing in this situation).

Edited January 14, 2018 by soltakss

[g33k]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

I like the idea of the Dragonewt Gap in their Personality Traits and use it in my games.

So, whereas a human might have Brave 01-70/71-100 Cowardly, a Dragonewt might have Brave 01-69/70-71/72-100 Cowardly, thus introducing a gap. If the Dragonewt rolls against Brave/Cowardly and rolls inside the gap, then it has behaved correctly, according to Right Action, and can choose whethwer to be Brave/Cowardly/Neither, otherwise the Dragonewt is forced to be Brave or Cowardly and should do something later to correct actions.

As a Dragonewt gains experience, the gap can increase, meaning it has more control over emotions. In my Glorantha, each Stage much challenge and master a number of pairs of emotions, in other words having a gap of 90 or more. Once those emotions are mastered it can progress to the next stage where it must challenge and master another group of pairs. A Ruler/Full Priest Dragonewt has mastered most pairs, an Inhuman King/Dragonet has mastered all pairs, so almost always follows Right Action (01 or 100 still counts as failing in this situation).

I quite like this!

I presume they get a "normal" improvement-chance, so the 01-69/70-71/72-100 (Brave/Right/Cowardly) could have a 69% chance to become less-Brave (but more-Right, which is not more-Cowardly) OR a 29% chance to become less-cowardly (but not more-brave).

Applying it to the RQG model, it would replace my idea of 50/50 balance "growing" to 55/55 &c -- the growth would be in their amount of Rightness, a Rune-Gap.  And if Dragon Magic is truely entirely a-runic, that makes excellent sense...

Edited January 14, 2018 by g33k
thinko (obiwan error)

[Richard S.]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

I like the idea of the Dragonewt Gap in their Personality Traits and use it in my games.

So, whereas a human might have Brave 01-70/71-100 Cowardly, a Dragonewt might have Brave 01-69/70-71/72-100 Cowardly, thus introducing a gap. If the Dragonewt rolls against Brave/Cowardly and rolls inside the gap, then it has behaved correctly, according to Right Action, and can choose whethwer to be Brave/Cowardly/Neither, otherwise the Dragonewt is forced to be Brave or Cowardly and should do something later to correct actions.

As a Dragonewt gains experience, the gap can increase, meaning it has more control over emotions. In my Glorantha, each Stage much challenge and master a number of pairs of emotions, in other words having a gap of 90 or more. Once those emotions are mastered it can progress to the next stage where it must challenge and master another group of pairs. A Ruler/Full Priest Dragonewt has mastered most pairs, an Inhuman King/Dragonet has mastered all pairs, so almost always follows Right Action (01 or 100 still counts as failing in this situation).

You're the guy who has a dragon magic system for rq3 on your site, right? I really like this idea too, though the reason I went with my approach was partly because there's not a middle space between the rune pairs where I could put right action percentiles. And if the RQ runes do function like Pendragon personality pairs then 50/50 does imply pretty solid control over your emotions.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

I quite like this!

I presume they get a "normal" improvement-chance, so the 01-69/70-71/72-100 (Brave/Right/Cowardly) could have a 69% chance to become less-Brave (but more-Right, which is not more-Cowardly) OR a 29% chance to become less-cowardly (but not more-brave).

It's the approach originally drafted in WF14.  Made use of traits based on Pendragon, but added the mid-range where the dragonewt wasn't forced into a specific behavior.

[Yelm's Light]

If they're completely without Runes, why is there a Dragonewt rune at all?  Or, for their betters, the Dragon and Infinity runes?

[jajagappa]

47 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

If they're completely without Runes, why is there a Dragonewt rune at all?

They aren't without Runes.  What they don't have is associations to the Elemental Runes.  They have the Dragonewt Rune and should have the Power Runes.  But they have to learn to master the Powers and not be driven by them.

[Richard S.]

51 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

If they're completely without Runes, why is there a Dragonewt rune at all?  Or, for their betters, the Dragon and Infinity runes?

It's not that they don't have runes, it's that they're trying to suppress them so they are no longer tied to the world. However, any interaction with the world encourages the development of runic connections, including the use of magic. Maybe once they achieve transcendence they lose their connection to the runes entirely until their minds descend from Ouroboros to animate the illusory byproduct of their achievement, which is their dragon body. It is these bodies which are tied to the runes, not the true draconic consciousness which dwells beyond the world.

Edited January 15, 2018 by Richard S.

[Joerg]

I wonder whether the mystic path allows a gap or an overlap of the opposed runes. Maybe you have to start your meditations developing a gap, then perfect balance, then an overlap (with the choice up to the enlightened person rather than the dice). After all, these runes are used to effect magic (not necessarily by the 'newts, but e.g. by Yelmites strong in both life and death).

[g33k]

Hmmm...  Then is a Dream Dragon actually the result of a True Dragon who Fumbles a roll in their sleep... a tiny bit of their spirit re-attaches to the runic associations and embodies something opposed to Right Action?

 

[Rick Meints]

Dragonewts are unpredictable. That is their primary purpose. They are not meant to be understood, but to wonder, delight, and to mystify. If you try to codify them you are missing the point. Glorantha is full of mysteries we are not supposed to understand. This is a feature, not a bug. Dragonewts were intentionally kept vague to keep us guessing.

[jeffjerwin]

1 minute ago, Rick Meints said:

Dragonewts are unpredictable. That is their primary purpose. They are not meant to be understood, but to wonder, delight, and to mystify. If you try to codify them you are missing the point. Glorantha is full of mysteries we are not supposed to understand. This is a feature, not a bug. Dragonewts were intentionally kept vague to keep us guessing.

I promise, we'll keep guessing, however... This keeps any of our outlandish ideas from being "corrected" too, which is a net bonus.

[Rick Meints]

Please keep guessing. I didn't say what I said to diminish the discussion, but only to encourage it. The end point isn't always a definitive answer, but a very enjoyable discussion of the possibilities. 

[Pentallion]

On 1/14/2018 at 6:44 AM, soltakss said:

I like the idea of the Dragonewt Gap in their Personality Traits and use it in my games.

So, whereas a human might have Brave 01-70/71-100 Cowardly, a Dragonewt might have Brave 01-69/70-71/72-100 Cowardly, thus introducing a gap. If the Dragonewt rolls against Brave/Cowardly and rolls inside the gap, then it has behaved correctly, according to Right Action, and can choose whethwer to be Brave/Cowardly/Neither, otherwise the Dragonewt is forced to be Brave or Cowardly and should do something later to correct actions.

As a Dragonewt gains experience, the gap can increase, meaning it has more control over emotions. In my Glorantha, each Stage much challenge and master a number of pairs of emotions, in other words having a gap of 90 or more. Once those emotions are mastered it can progress to the next stage where it must challenge and master another group of pairs. A Ruler/Full Priest Dragonewt has mastered most pairs, an Inhuman King/Dragonet has mastered all pairs, so almost always follows Right Action (01 or 100 still counts as failing in this situation).

I like that too and since we've never had a dragonewt campaign, I think I'll incorporate both the gap and the idea about 50/50 and have it work like this:  Your dragonewt tries to get the runes to 50/50.  Once he does, he creates his first gap.  It becomes 01-49/50-51/52-00.  If he rolls right inside the gap, it widens by 1 each way.  If not, he gets out of balanced and has to balance it again.  Only when both extremes are perfectly balanced and he then rolls in the gap does the gap grow.  Get it to where the gap has widened to include all and he's ready to evolve to his next stage.  Of course, he'll have lots of runes and as each one competely gaps, he evolves further.  Until he finally transcends all the runes.

[g33k]

20 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

... but a very enjoyable discussion of the possibilities. 

Not to mention very enjoyable GAMES !   

[Yelm's Light]

On 1/17/2018 at 9:15 PM, Rick Meints said:

Dragonewts are unpredictable. That is their primary purpose. They are not meant to be understood, but to wonder, delight, and to mystify. If you try to codify them you are missing the point. Glorantha is full of mysteries we are not supposed to understand. This is a feature, not a bug. Dragonewts were intentionally kept vague to keep us guessing.

Given that Fear of Dragons is pretty much ingrained in every mortal race HQ-wise, I doubt there's a whole lot of delight involved.

[soltakss]

On 1/14/2018 at 7:10 PM, Richard S. said:

You're the guy who has a dragon magic system for rq3 on your site, right?

Yep.

I really like this idea too, though the reason I went with my approach was partly because there's not a middle space between the rune pairs where I could put right action percentiles. And if the RQ runes do function like Pendragon personality pairs then 50/50 does imply pretty solid control over your emotions.

I have always played Passions as though they are a choice between two. So, there is no place for something in between. So, someone with Brave 01-80/81-100 Cowardly rolls 1d100 and is mostly Brave but sometimes Cowardly. Dragonewts have the bit in the middle that they use to choose whether to be Brave or Cowardly.

I haven't really played Pendragon, so cannot comment on their Passions.

However, having something like Brave 80% implies that a failure of Brave means the PC acts Cowardly. It get tricky when the PC has both Brave and Cowardly as Passions.

 

[soltakss]

On 1/19/2018 at 7:28 AM, Yelm's Light said:

Given that Fear of Dragons is pretty much ingrained in every mortal race HQ-wise, I doubt there's a whole lot of delight involved.

Fear of Dragons is quite reasonable anyway for most people, in my opinion.

Sure, HQ has everyone from Dragon Pass having it for something that happened 500 years ago, which is a bit much for me. 

Anyway, Dragonewts are not Dragons, so no need to Fear them! 

[g33k]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sure, HQ has everyone from Dragon Pass having it for something that happened 500 years ago, which is a bit much for me. 

Consider it as an acculturated thought-system, akin to fearing that you'd fall off the edge of the world if you sailed too far, or believed that black people deserved to be "elevated" by serving white masters.  Some really unbelievable and hideous things become indisputable "facts" of a culture..

Then back that with Dragon Magic.

Apparently the Dragons got Really Pissed Off when that army went for Dragon's Eye... humans in Dragon Pass may not be ABLE to escape from Fear of Dragons (any more than the Trolls can escape from the Curse of Kin).

[soltakss]

22 hours ago, g33k said:

Apparently the Dragons got Really Pissed Off when that army went for Dragon's Eye... humans in Dragon Pass may not be ABLE to escape from Fear of Dragons (any more than the Trolls can escape from the Curse of Kin).

That makes more sense, I hadn't thought of it like that.

[Yelm's Light]

On 1/13/2018 at 3:51 PM, Richard S. said:

And because dragonewts without spiritual balance are constantly trying to invoke runes their personality actually tend to be much more extreme than your average human's, resulting in extremely self-contradictory actions and unpredictable behavior patterns.

I would think that there's at least one regularity to rogues' behavior:  they'd tend to be much more survival-oriented without the promise of rebirth.

On 1/13/2018 at 3:51 PM, Richard S. said:

So, my theory is, based on the new RQ rules and a few articles on Dragonewts from the old Issaries site, that one -note I say one reason, not the only reason - of the reasons they behave so erratic and strangely is because every time one of their power runes is used and increases they are obligated by their religion to do everything in their power to rebalance it, to perform Right Action.

Another issue is that Right Action is a slippery fish in itself.  I don't recall where I read it, so it may not exactly be canon, but the point was made that outsiders don't know how Right Action works (i.e., what would be considered a counterbalance to an action taken or spell cast).

On 1/17/2018 at 9:15 PM, Rick Meints said:

Dragonewts are unpredictable. That is their primary purpose. They are not meant to be understood, but to wonder, delight, and to mystify. If you try to codify them you are missing the point. Glorantha is full of mysteries we are not supposed to understand. This is a feature, not a bug. Dragonewts were intentionally kept vague to keep us guessing.

That's all well and good for players, but as GM I want to pin down what's going on there.  I'm not particularly satisfied by their being a deus ex machina.  I can come up with any number of those that don't involve dragonewts.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

That's all well and good for players, but as GM I want to pin down what's going on there ... 

Just think of Dragons (and to a limited extent, Dragonewts) as Quantum Uncertainty operating at epic scale...

3 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

 I'm not particularly satisfied by their being a deus ex machina.

Well, don't (as GM) use them as that.  I've never thought of RQ-Dragons as being a deus ex machina style resolution to anything (unless they decide to eat it, of course).

They simply don't care enough about (most) human-scale actions and endeavors, to care how they resolve.

 

Edited January 21, 2018 by g33k