Karse and Refuge

[davecake]

I have heard the Carse and Thieves World products (which of course were published as non-Gloranthan RuneQuest products by Chaosium) were run as part of the Chaosium house campaign, and have Gloranthan equivalents as Karse and Refuge. Does anyone know any details of the conversion used, eg which deities were substituted for which, which cultures for which, and so on?

(I've never seen the Chaosium version of Carse)

[7Tigers]

For Refuge, I'm not sure a lot was shared outside:
Rankan Empire = Lunars
Beysibs = Waertagi

Old french magazine Tatou #4 proposed a non canonical Refuge brithini controlled version (by Guillaume Fournier), where town was created by Eurmal and Labyrinth was a Desorder & Illusion magic place. I will try to dig it for further details. Map was also by Guillaume:

.

And I remember that Joerg wrote a piece expending Karse heortling roots on his old site

 

[David Scott]

Maybe of interest

Subject: Carse to Karse Konversion

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/HenkDaily/v941009p1

There are more posts - search here - https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

Edited February 5, 2019 by David Scott

[Joerg]

I have the Chaosium version of Carse, which is a reprint of the Midkemia version, with no Glorantha content at all.

I like both these supplements (and Tulan of the Isles and the smaller Midkemia location supplements which I know from German language reprints/adaptations to the setting of the German Midgard rpg), and have played extensively in Carse, starting with the German translation in the Midgard setting, but then did a lot for Gloranthan Karse (I had a wiki running for a while, until the wiki provider folded).

The Midkemian original has just  twelve deities (although they have different names and aspects in different places), which is a bit poor compared to Glorantha. (They used to have more, but many were lost to their version of the Gods War or Titanomachy). 

I used to make the temple to Astalon as the main male Aeolian temple, but that was when I thought that Esvulari and Heortling would share many of their shrines.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midkemia
http://www.crydee.com/raymond-feist/encyclopedia/riftwar-cycle/gods/midkemia

I re-interpreted the Temple to Killian as to a joint temple of Ernalda, Esrola (mother of Choralinthor) and Triolina, with a shrine to Aldrya. It is used jointly by the Karse Pelaskites, the Karse Orlanthi and the Karse Esvulari, each of which have their own private sections.

The Midkemia population of Carse comes in three flavors - Kingdom of the Isles, mixed, and old (formerly provincial Keshite) coastal and forest dwellers.

Kingdom of the Isles translates to either Heortlander Orlanthi or Esvulari (which may not have been that prominent when the campaign was played, but then they figure again in the Refuge context). Old coastal dwellers translates to Pelaskite and a lesser flavor of Esrolian.

The Pelaskites of Karse are a lot more Orlanthi in their culture than their Rightarm Islander cousins. They have access to tended forests on the upper Marzeel where their master shipwrights produce the purpose-grown timbers for their boat- and ship-building, probably combined with a form of pilgrimage and homage to the Kitori and Ezkankekko. They have a number of other pilgrimages mentioned in the HeroQuest

There is no trade god in Midkemia, but the market will serve as an Issaries temple, and the great traders in the city have Issaries, Etyries (I made the Al'Hazara clan immigrants from Kostaddi, using Sables rather than Camels, no idea what the Chaosium house game did) and Argan Argar. The Esrolvuli variant of Issaries would be present, too - I am not quite clear what current canon makes of their relationship with Manirian Ashara. Dormal is big in Karse, and the shipyards (off-map from the main city plan of Caernarfon). 

Judging from the timeline of published bits of the Gloranthan campaign, the Karse games would have fallen into the 1617-1619 bracket, i.e. before Fazzur's conquest. Post-conquest Karse would see some deaths of intrepid defenders (at dragonewt blades), but many non-defenders would have survived mostly unscathed. The supplement has quite a big garrison of the Baron's forces in Carse, who would be the prime victims of Fazzur's assault. Citizen defenders who threw away their martial gear in time would have survived.

Carse as presented in Men of the Seas would be post-conquest Karse, with Fazzur and his forces curiously unmentioned. (The Hero Wars/HeroQuest 1 timeline started around 1620 or 21 and went on to 1624 with the Boat Planet quest.)

 

Refuge/Sanctuary has a different set of deities to accommodate - a local Ilsigi culture recently conquered (or, in case of Sanctuary, just annected by a minimum force of a few veteran peace-keepers accompanying Prince Kadakithis) by the Rankan Empire.

Ilsigi translates as Kethaelan, Rankan as Lunar (mostly Tarshite). If you have Tarsh War, Prince Orontes makes a good stand-in for Kadakithis, a bystander in the conflict between Pharandros and Fazzur.

Kethaelan comes in a number of flavors, though - God Forgot Ingareens/Brithini, Esvulari, and probably regular Heortlings, with a smattering of Heortland Pelaskites optional. Jubal would be an Agimori, though it is up to you to say whether he is a renegade (and midget) Men-and-a-Half, a Pithdaran sailor who left the Wolf Pirates, or a Fonritian.

I have reserved the Beysib refugees for a return of the Waertagi, in fact a dissident faction fleeing the hell-spawned returnees. Possibly from the Sog or Maslo exiles, or from one of the rooted city-ship islands out in the sea (see the Aftal fragment in Missing Lands).

Ils and Shalpa may both be Orlanth (as Thunderous and Adventurous), or alternatively Orlanth and Lanbril (giving a way too important role to Lanbril, though).

Vashanka could be Yanafal, or some weird variation of Shargash or a martial Jernotius (taking the Sacred Band motif to another sexually indeterminate form).

S'Danzo might be Three-Bean-Circus or a similar Old Earth remnant. Nisibis seems to map nicely to Spol. Blue Star might be Blue Moon.