Chase Rules & Pirates

[Naed Yar]

Looking at the Chase rules, esp. Vehicular, how should I apply that to ships? Or at least, what are you suggestions? I'm mainly thinking sailing ships, esp. galleons, ships of the line, sloops, etc. I may just be hitting a mental block with the rules only referring to automobile chases (I'll be getting to Bullit later...). Also, how would the chase effect the non-piloting characters, such as using a looking glass, firing cannon? The RAW saw that any other character's action are difficult, but ships are made for this, right?

[Naed Yar]

:confused: Hello? *bump*

[vagabond]

I'll have to take a look at the RAW, but IIRC, the RAW reflects

individual opponents, and smaller and more agile moving objects.

Ships provide a more stable platform from which others not directly

involved in the chase maneuvers may take action which can affect

the chase (i.e, while the captain and crew directly responsible for

ship movement are busy with difficult actions, others on

deck have less immediate concerns - so they can fire missile weapons,

use a spyglass, etc. at a less than difficult level. However,

there is still some degree of difficulty - ship movement during a chase

is hardly smooth, and one must still take care to cover if the opponent

is firing as well.

-V

[Naed Yar]

I told by my older bro that RQIII had ship chase rules, but they dealt more with Greek triremes, as opposed to galleons & sloops. Any suggestions, if RAW gives no clues? (Think outside the yellow book!!)

[sladethesniper]

Interesting question...In a BRP/D20-ish Pirates campaign I ran, I found that simple skill rolls for the captain, crew and modified by the ship and environmental factors worked well for me.

For an in-depth treatment of pirate style combat I used GURPS Swashbucklers. I also bought Swashbuckling Adventures (it's D20, but not bad...) and Seafarers Handbook by Fantasy Flight Games (part of their Legends and Lairs line)...that one is D20 and sort of sucky, but did have some niftiness, but not enough to buy it.

If I remember correctly, the PC's were basically all Bridge Crew...

The Captain

The Helmsman

The Gunner

The Master at Arms

Basically the Captain made rolls affecting the ship as a whole

The Helmsman actually "drove" the ship

The Gunner made rolls to shoot the guns

The Master At Arms decided when/where and how many men to board with...

I "abstracted" the rest of the crew in combat (though I did have about 20 NPC's on the ship...) so that the players either rolled for their PC's or they "led" their portion of the ship (via rolls).

I hope that helps.

-STS

[RMS]

Does anyone have MRQ Pirates and have opinions on it?

I'd probably use a series of opposed rolls straight out of the current system:

Scan to determine at what range the enemy is spotted.

Luck for location of enemy vs. yourself (direction, wind, currents, etc.).

A series of opposed Shiphandling roles to determine if the ships close or not:

• Identical successes keep ships at same distance.
  
• Different levels open or close range.
  
• In either case, I'd provide hefty bonuses for ship/sail/crew.
  

If they do close, the continue with Shiphandling to bring guns to bear.

Use a gunnery skill (perhaps rank the crew as a group?) to determine accuracy. Roll damage.

That's my idea without sitting down and reading what's actually there. Btw, I could pass on the entirety of the RQIII ship rules pretty easily if you want them. My understanding is that Elric! had better rules, but I've never used them. I'll look into them.

The division into Captain, Helmsman, etc. is pretty good and reminds me of playing Star Trek RPG back in the 80s with an associated ship-to-ship combat system. I don't remember the exact names (wasn't mine), but I do remember us playing lots of battles and not bothering with roleplaying adventures much.

[Naed Yar]

Interesting question...In a BRP/D20-ish Pirates campaign I ran, I found that simple skill rolls for the captain, crew and modified by the ship and environmental factors worked well for me.

...

If I remember correctly, the PC's were basically all Bridge Crew...

The Captain

The Helmsman

The Gunner

The Master at Arms

Basically the Captain made rolls affecting the ship as a whole

The Helmsman actually "drove" the ship

The Gunner made rolls to shoot the guns

The Master At Arms decided when/where and how many men to board with...

I "abstracted" the rest of the crew in combat (though I did have about 20 NPC's on the ship...) so that the players either rolled for their PC's or they "led" their portion of the ship (via rolls).

Does anyone have MRQ Pirates and have opinions on it?

I'd probably use a series of opposed rolls straight out of the current system:

Scan to determine at what range the enemy is spotted.

Luck for location of enemy vs. yourself (direction, wind, currents, etc.).

A series of opposed Shiphandling roles to determine if the ships close or not:

• Identical successes keep ships at same distance.
  
• Different levels open or close range.
  
• In either case, I'd provide hefty bonuses for ship/sail/crew.
  

If they do close, the continue with Shiphandling to bring guns to bear.

Use a gunnery skill (perhaps rank the crew as a group?) to determine accuracy. Roll damage.

That's my idea without sitting down and reading what's actually there. Btw, I could pass on the entirety of the RQIII ship rules pretty easily if you want them. My understanding is that Elric! had better rules, but I've never used them. I'll look into them.

I like the division of tasks/rolling responsibilities. It keeps the limelight on everyone. And those roles work, because of the number of players I should *crossing fingers* have.

Now, I'm just curious for suggestions to handle failures in the chase. The RAW have the vehicles involved fishtailing, swerving, etc. What happens when a ship, a sailing galleon for example, fails its chase rolls?

[vagabond]

I think the situational modifiers for the RAW Chase Rules will fit

for skill modifiers for those on deck not actively engaged in

the run/pursuit.

Things like Wind (-10%), Heavy Rain (-20%)/Rain (-10%) (for the spray),

At maximum Speed (-10%) and Oily/icy (-20%) (for the deck slipperiness

and movement). In any combination. And, perhaps success levels for

the respective rolls by the captain, pilot, and sailing/rowing crew could

affect things as well, both positively and negatively.

I'll dig out my Sailing the Seas of Fate as well as the Conan

supplement Pirate Isles to see what rules they have. I may have

MRQ Pirates somewhere as well.

-V

[Chivalrybean]

I'll base some sea combat on this thread in the Cursed Pirates adventure set I'm working on, if nobody minds

Any suggestions as to what to roll for cannon damage?

[rust]

What happens when a ship, a sailing galleon for example, fails its chase rolls?

With a normal failure for the chasing ship, I would expect it to be something

with the rigging (a sail is ripped, etc.), and for the ship that is chased it could

be something like "stolen wind" (the ship chasing it blocks the wind with its

own sails).

A critical failure could be the same for both ships, for example the rudder

breaks or a major piece of the rigging comes down (potentially hitting some-

one).

It should not be difficult to find more examples of what can go wrong with a

little search on the internet - and you would get the right English termino-

logy, which I do not know well.

[rust]

Any suggestions as to what to roll for cannon damage?

For a simple system, I would use the cannon from the equipment chapter of

the rules, divide the hit points of the ship that is hit by two (50 % rigging, 50

% hull), and then decide whether the gunner wants to demobilize the ship,

aiming for the rigging, or to sink it, aiming for the hull.

Once the rigging has lost half its hit points, the ship loses half its speed, on-

ce the rigging has lost all hit points, the ship is dead in the water. Likewise

for the hull, but when the hull has lost all hit points, the ship sinks.

Each hit, rigging or hull, should have a chance to kill a number of crew mem-

bers, too. An easy way to handle it would be to count each hit as 1 % of

the crew, so 100 hits would completely eliminate the crew - but you could

of course just as well use any other formula.

[GianniVacca]

Frankly, I have always used tabletop war gaming rules for stuff like mass combat, naval combat, etc. I think that rolegames that try and simulate mass warfare using skirmish rules (because this is what the combat rules of a rpg boil down to) are ridiculous.

For my older BRP campaign set in an ancient world with lots of islands, I had devised naval combat rules:

Naval Battle Rules

These are more of the trireme kind but you could maybe adapt them to the 16th/17th century.

[rust]

Frankly, I have always used tabletop war gaming rules for stuff like mass combat, naval combat, etc. I think that rolegames that try and simulate mass warfare using skirmish rules (because this is what the combat rules of a rpg boil down to) are ridiculous.

Yes, indeed. I use either boardgame rules (the ideas above are mostly borro-

wed from games like "Wooden Ships and Iron Men") or tabletop rules, current-

ly for example "Capitana" for galley warfare in the Mediterranean of the 16th

century.

The BRP rules are only used when the game "zooms in" to the actions of indi-

vidual characters, for example during boarding actions and thelike.

[IndianaKen]

All your questions about naval combat in the age of sail will be answered in the upcoming Arrrgh, Pirates! monograph. Part of what I have included is a chapter on naval combat, giving several options. Advanced Naval Combat covers all aspects in detail, from maneuvering to boarding actions.

As far as chases and such, I make most skills performed on a moving vessel (save for the Seamanship skill) difficult. The reason being that these ships are small, cramped, and constantly moving. A ship under sail does not stand still, but bucks and yaws constantly. Weather conditions also effect this. In certain weathers some skills are additionally penalized or become impossible. A chase involves opposed rolls based on Navigation, Piloting, and Strategy (all modified by the PCs actions).

I wish I could share more, but that would be giving away the milk, when you really should buy the cow.

[rust]

I wish I could share more, but that would be giving away the milk, when you really should buy the cow.

Yep, this cow (or is it a dugong ?) is already on my list.

[Atgxtg]

Any suggestions as to what to roll for cannon damage?

Dice?

Seriously, I've got some archaic cannon notes somehwere. I though there were on my flashdrive but apparenrtly they are on my HD back home.

Going from memory damage was something like:

2-pdr (1d8+1)

3-pdr (2d8+2)

6-pdr (3d8+3)

12-pdr (4d8+4)

24-pdr (5d8+5)

Cannon also inflict "shrapnel" damage from wood spliters and such equal to half thier normal damage in a radius equal to thier damage dice (so a 4d8+4 cannon would do 2d8+2 damage in a 4m burst radius). This damage drops off 1d(+1 per m beyonf the bust radius. Don't forget that things like masts, walls,boxes, kegs,cannon and other character all count as cover.

I7ve got something for range too, but don't recall it off the top of my head. I iknow it is a some fort of muiple of the damage dice.

For broadsides, I'd suggest:

Adding +10% to hit for each doubling of the guns,

2 guns +10%

4 guns +20%

8 guns +30%

and so on.

Note that this probably is added before adjusting for range.

On a hit roll a variable die based on the number of guns fired to see how many actual hits you get. So firing 8 cannon would mean rolling 1D8 to see how many shots actually hit.

For damage I suggest just adding another 1d8+1 per each hit rather than rolling the full damage for each shot. The reason being that it usually takes quite a lot of lead to sink a ship. Otherwise most ships won't surive a single broadisde.

I'll dig through my notes, I know I've got more info (including the SIZ and weights of the cannons themselves). I think I've got some mods for chases too, adapted from Flashing Blades and of all things James Bond (don't laugh, it is fairly close to the BRP chase system).

[rust]

I'll dig through my notes, I know I've got more info (including the SIZ and weights of the cannons themselves).

This would be most welcome.

My setting's cannons, both on the galleys and in siege warfare, are one of

my major headaches, and I would jump at every opportunity to compare my

real world research notes with BRP stats.

If you find those notes and post them (thank you very much in advance ),

could you please also mention the historical period for which you designed

these guns - I might have to reduce both the damage and the rate of fire

of Age of Sail cannons somewhat for my 16th century setting, I think.

[Chivalrybean]

All your questions about naval combat in the age of sail will be answered in the upcoming Arrrgh, Pirates! monograph.

I'll likely get that at some point, but I need these tomorrow {:0p I'm going to so be winging a lot by the seat of my pants when I run my adventure tomorrow.

It'd be interesting to collaborate. Meaning that when I have my monograph all battened down with the adventures and whatnot and am tying up the rules and bits, if I could align it with Arrrgh, Pirates!. Then I could have a little note on it that it fits right in with Arrrgh, Pirates!. Cross promotion FTW!

For a simple system, I would use the cannon from the equipment chapter of

the rules, divide the hit points of the ship that is hit by two (50 % rigging, 50

% hull), and then decide whether the gunner wants to demobilize the ship,

aiming for the rigging, or to sink it, aiming for the hull.

Yeah, I didn't find the cannon listing until just now, in the artillery section.

[Atgxtg]

Well, thanks to this thread I've started to throw together a set of *SPOT RULES* for wooden ships. It's about half finished now, and so far it looks pretty similar to the normal chases rules but with the following exceptions:

*More "range bands". For cars "Out of sight" might mean a half mile away, behind a bend or building. WIth sailing ships "out of sight" could be as much as 15 miles away. Ranges are Grappling/Close/Medium/Long/Extreme/Beyond Cannon Range. For ranges beyond Cannon range, the range number is simply the distance in km.

*Instead of using 12 second combat turns, it uses a turn length based upon the distance between the ships.I wrote the rules to use 5 minute turn when the ships are within cannon range (under 2km) and longer turn length for when the ships are farther apart. That way a ship going 8 kts can close of a ship going 7kts without it taking all night long to play out.

*Ships in a chase can try to change the range (bear down/flee) maneuver for a broadside, attempt to grapple & board (at grapple range only), or maneuver to deny a target.

*I should have something for handling boarding actions. They can be run with normal combat or use some sort of simplified method. Probably something like a roll on the resistance table using adjusted troop STR (read number of men in the boarding party, with trained solders counting double and bonuses for equipment).

*Ships have "rigging points" (probably 1/2 their hit point score). Damage to rigging reduces the ships speed by a proportional amount. So a ship that has had half it's rigging points blown away has it's speed cut in half.

*Cannon can load solid shot (best vs. the ship's HP), Chain Shot (best against rigging) or grape shot (best against enemy crewmen).

*Cannon should have a Reload number based on Rate of Fire and crew required. For example if a cannon has a Rate of Fire of 1/5 and takes 3 men to handle, it would have a 15 Reload Number. Each turn captains can make a Reload roll for the crew and get that many Reload points to reload cannon. For example is a captain got a 75 for his reload, he could reload 5 of the RL 15 cannon.

*Cannon will be spread out along a ship by side* Bow, Starboard, Stern or Port (Larboard). ONly about 10-15% of the guns can be on the bow, with twice that on the stern, No more than 50% of the guns can be facing port or staarboard (and these should probably bre balanced to each other).

*I hope to have something for handling visibility and Wind/Sea conditions.

So, is there anything important that I missing?

[Atgxtg]

This would be most welcome.

It looks like for 17th century cannon. a correlation between weight of shot and weight of cannon(including carriage) can be worked out as:

Metric=800*sqrt(shot)

Imperial= 1175*sqrt(shot)

So a 9 ponder (4kg) would weight 1600kg [800*sqrt(4)] or 3525 lbs [1175*sqrt(9)].

The numbers seem to be in the right ballpark.

I'll put together a table with some of the more common cannon (6-pndr, 9-pdr, 18-pdr, 24-pdr, 32-pdr).

Note that since smaller cannon like 5-pndrs often don't need carriages, thier weight would be about half.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Atgxtg

[GianniVacca]

There is a fully fledged naval war game on pages 44 and beyond of this fanzine:

http://www.valgame.eu/noturkey/NT4_2009.pdf

[rust]

It looks like for 17th century cannon. a correlation between weight of shot and weight of cannon(including carriage) can be worked out as:

Metric=800*sqrt(shot)

Imperial= 1175*sqrt(shot)

Thank you very much - and sorry for the late reaction, I was abroad and

offline for two weeks.

[Atgxtg]

Thank you very much - and sorry for the late reaction, I was abroad and

offline for two weeks.

Well, considering that I haven't been back to the forum for over a month I can't complain. I suppose I should post those chase rule I worked up too.