Armor

[Uhtred]

Where can I find rules / prices for non-standard armors?  I often use the Dr Pendragon site to create NPK's on the fly and a high number of them have silvered or golden chain and I have no way to explain to my pk's how to get that for themselves - other than killing said NPK - or what it's value is if they should choose to sell it.

[Atgxtg]

How non-standard?

There is some stuff in the GPC, and I have been working on a unofficial armor booklet and table based on the existing data and armor that has appeared in various supplements. If you could give me an idea of what you are looking for I might be able to help. 

[Uhtred]

We, as a group, have been excited about your treatise on armors, partial armors, and mix-matched sets since it was teased on the Nocturnal Forum... but at this moment I am most interested in “silvered” and “golden” chainmails mentioned on Dr. Pendragons list generation site. As with most treasures, I know I am given extreme latitude as the GM to decide the cost / value of such items; but that can often be seen as too arbitrary by my pk’s and I am wondering if such armors are actually detailed in any of the older supplements. 

[Username]

I can't recall them appearing in the older supplements, but it may have been in some of the cultural books from earlier editions. I don't remember it in 4th edition Pendragon or it appear in a price listing in the earlier adventure books. I also dont remember it in the Cambrian book. I think the knights do get gilded armor in one adventure from Arthur. Maybe the Irish or Saxon book? Maybe Land of the Giants? It would make the most sense to me because doesn't Beowulf as king wear golden armor?

[Morien]

They are from my equipment lists to give the higher lords some extra bling, and got adopted to BotW. The prices are simply multiplied by 3 for silvered and 10 for golden in my notes, although it is possible that Greg had other values in mind. Note that the armor in question is not actually made from silver or gold, just coated, since neither (but especially gold) is good metal for armor or weapons.

Granted, for my players, I would simply ask them to describe the armor decorations and then tell how much money they want to spend on it. For instance, I doubt that silvering a breastplate would be nearly as much work than doing it for a chain mail. Durability is another matter too; links chafing against one another. But I tend to handwave those things for the Rule of Cool.

 

[Atgxtg]

Thanks Morien, 

I suspect mail wouldn't be any more difficult that plate, but then I suspect they would electroplate it. Electroplating goes back to ancient times, and it would seem like the best way to do it. Maybe Merlin brought the technique back with him when he returned from the East?

[Morien]

I was referring more to the fact that the rings of the chainmail have a LOT of surface area, and the friction of the rings sliding and grinding against one another might rub the thin layer off quickly enough. In any case, just applying a cost multiplier to the base cost seems a bit iffy, but there could be a bigger 'mark up' since idiot nobles will pay without thinking too much about the price. Granted, historically towards Late Middle Ages new chainmail was actually more expensive than plate armor, due to the labor-intensive construction methods. This is not the case in Pendragon, which I handwave away as the speed of the adoption: there is still a LOT of grandfather's & father's obsolete chainmail floating around, near pristine condition, which helps to keep the price down.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Morien

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Morien said:

I was referring more to the fact that the rings of the chainmail have a LOT of surface area, and the friction of the rings sliding and grinding against one another might rub the thin layer off quickly enough. In any case, just applying a cost multiplier to the base cost seems a bit iffy, but there could be a bigger 'mark up' since idiot nobles will pay without thinking too much about the price.

Yeah, there is probably a huge markup because the smiths know anybody willing to walk around in real gold who doesn't mind it flaking off probably isn't going to balk at the price. 

Out of curiosity, I did a little research, number crunching and:

It looks like modern flatware has a coating that is about 2.5% or so of the total weight. Assuming thar armor would bew treatred rougher, and would require a thicker plating, lets say 5% or so of the weight. 

A full suit of plate has an average weight of around 40 pounds, so we need 2 pounds of silver. 

Since the librum is valued at one £ sterling, we know that 2 pounds of silver would cost around £2.

The time and craftsmanship required to coat every piece and probably add something to it to reduce flaking should be worth something. Lets say six of seven times the cost (so + £12-14) which (not) coincidentally is about twice the cost of a suit of plate. 

The armorer, to make up for his time and effort, plus maybe sensing a easy touch, doubles that to £24-28 , for a final value of triple normal price.  

Now Gold in KAP seems to be worth about five -six times that of silver, based on the prices of gold and silver jewelry in the Price Lists. That would increased the costs by as much as +£60-84,  but possibly not as gold armor wouldn't be worn as often, and might not need to but plated as thickly, especially with gold being three times heavier than silver. Once again the armor applies a heavy markup, and we get to ten times again.

 

1 hour ago, Morien said:

. Granted, historically towards Late Middle Ages new chainmail was actually more expensive than plate armor, due to the labor-intensive construction methods. This is not the case in Pendragon, which I handwave away as the speed of the adoption:

I've been thinking of adjusting the prices towards the tail end of the campaign. TheGPC does have a major price increase due to the labor shortage from the Black Death, and I think it might just apply that to mail. but keep plate prices the same thanks to the ability to press it (which is what cut the price down histroically, and so would offset the plague increase). Not that the Pks would be buying much mail in the 550s anyway.

Quote

there is still a LOT of grandfather's & father's obsolete chainmail floating around, near pristine condition, which helps to keep the price down.

I have a thought on this that I will try to take advantage of in my armor booklet. Basically mail get continually upgraded and incorporated into newer armor. For example:

A poor knight in the Uther Period starts off with a mail haubergeon (8 points). He is rewarded during the wars and spends some of his treasure o replacing his metal reinforced hard leather spangelhelm  with an all plate one, and  having his haubergeon lengthen into a full hauberk (10 points).

Time goes by and he passes this armor onto his son, who when he can, has it altered to fit better, has the mail hood turned into a separate coif,  and again replaces his helm with a newer spanglehelm that is more conical, for Superior Norman Mail (11 points). After the Boy King Phase he can replace the spanglehelm with a great helm, and add ailettes, knee cops and elbow pieces to the armor turning it intro reinforced Mail (12 points).  Over time the knight continues to add bits of plate and upgrades the helm to a sugarloaf and gets Partial Plate (14 points, although it probably is an evolution of 13-15 points, as funds and circumstance allow).

He passes this onto his son, who continues the process eventually ending up in a suit of full plate, . When the old suit of mail is broke up into sections and sewn to the gambeson as gossets, which are also worn when the knight replaces this with White Armor (i.e. Gothic, Milanese and/or British Plate).

So knights might not be replacing mail armor with whole new suits as as much as upgrading existing suits of mail armor. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Atgxtg

[Uqbarian]

Just for another reference point, KAP 5.2 in the price lists (chapter 8, page 190) mentions "For example, if a knight wished to buy gilded armor, the price might be triple the given amount or even more." That does seem a bit low to me, but going by Atgxtg's post, maybe you could say that triple value gets you a thin coating on a suit intended purely for ceremonial use.

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, Uqbarian said:

Just for another reference point, KAP 5.2 in the price lists (chapter 8, page 190) mentions "For example, if a knight wished to buy gilded armor, the price might be triple the given amount or even more." That does seem a bit low to me, but going by Atgxtg's post, maybe you could say that triple value gets you a thin coating on a suit intended purely for ceremonial use.

 Well such armor for combat use doesn't make much sense. The knight would literally have bits of silver and gold flaking off or scratched off on impact but then I'ts not really designed to make sense functionally. I suppose a noble might just chalk that off to conspicuous consumption, but even then I would doubt it to be the "everyday" armor. Then again such nobles wouldn't need to wear armor all that often, if ever, and it certainly would have the enemy knights on the battlefield thinking of ransom. In fact ti might even get the enemy to pull their blows so they can capture you alive. 

Gold might be a bit on the cheap side, since gold is about twice as heavy as silver it would take twice as much for the same thickness, but I suspect that the gold plated armor probably has both a thinner coating and isn't pure gold, but probably an alloy of some sort to to keep it from melting off in the hot sun. So 10x isn't that bad.  

Probably most of the cost is for finding an armorer with the knowhow and ability to actually do it, assuming it electroplated, or for the sheet man hourse involved an hammering in or heat treating the coating to the plate, if it isn't. 

[Uhtred]

Thanks for the x3 and x10 Morien. I see the Warlord quick roll chart in the BotW which lists kit quality and such, but did not see anywhere the expressed the value. 

As for the armor itself being gold or silver, I find that highly unlikely - especially in Uther and Anarchy - unless it is of fae origin. I intend to describe it as embellishments, like sleeve or collar borders, or a cross of gold rings upon the chest - where the decorative rings are attached atop the actual armor rings perhaps with fabric accents to highlight the upper class status of the wearer. Thus the armor is still usable in a fight and less costly to repair the silver or gold adornments. 

[Atgxtg]

In heraldry yellow and white stand in for gold and silver,m respectively. Thew idea was you carried a yellow shield into combat, buthung a gold one on the walls of you hall. I could see something similar being done with gilded armor.

[Uqbarian]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

 Well such armor for combat use doesn't make much sense. The knight would literally have bits of silver and gold flaking off or scratched off on impact but then I'ts not really designed to make sense functionally. I suppose a noble might just chalk that off to conspicuous consumption, but even then I would doubt it to be the "everyday" armor. Then again such nobles wouldn't need to wear armor all that often, if ever, and it certainly would have the enemy knights on the battlefield thinking of ransom. In fact ti might even get the enemy to pull their blows so they can capture you alive. 

Oh, definitely! I was thinking more like the 3x armour might be suited for wearing one day a year (or even just stick it on a stand in the hall and never wear it), whereas the 10x armour (with thicker gilding and better techniques) might be suited for wearing at the occasional big tournament. (You could also reduce a suit's apparent value by half each year it's exposed to significant wear, same as for fancy clothes.) 

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Uqbarian said:

. (You could also reduce a suit's apparent value by half each year it's exposed to significant wear, same as for fancy clothes.) 

Only in this case the reduction in value might not just be apparent value, but bits of precious metals coming off the suit! 

[Uqbarian]

Exactly!