Death, Hell, and Heroquests

[PhilHibbs]

Splitting off to prevent further topic drift

3 hours ago, Tywyll said:

As to death in other worlds, is that still canon? I don't have the G2G so I don't know if its spelled out there, but I've not seen anywhere that that is how things work these days.

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

If you die on a heroquest in Hell, you don't come back. It's much like faerie in Arthurian legend, you are gone so everyone assumes you are dead (until you reappear). 

Surely if you are in Hell, then you are by definition dead already.

[Gryphaea]

Sir Ethilrist wasn't dead when he went to hell, I don't think Argrath was either. In King of Sartar there is a list of Argrath's Companions, some of the entries about the companions end with the ominous line 'who did not return from it' which I feel implies that if you die in Hell then you can't come back

[Joerg]

There is dead to the world (which you are as soon as you enter the Underworld, in a Schrödinger's Cat way) and dead to the Underworld (bereft of agency). Your companions might still be able to drag you back out of Hell. You will be either freshly dead, as Time doesn't corrupt you in the Underworld, or dead for the length of your absence from the surface world.

Questing into the Lands of the Dead shouldn't be the norm, IMO, unless you are about to steal Death from Darkness or to bring back someone long gone from the world on the LBQ, or similar. (There are underworlds which aren't part of the Lands of the Dead, like the one ruled by Lodril or Monster Man.  You might use the Castles of Lead or the stairwell beneath Shadow Plateau to descend without having to pass the Court of the Dead, but if you wish to proceed to Ty Kora Tek or Maggotliege, you will have to cross another barrier of Death. The feasting Hall of Argan Argar should be reachable without formally having died (being a former part of Lodril's domain), but you would arrive there without being drawn towards the hall of Maggotliege where you might claim an entity of light for your price. The dungeons of that place would be part of the Lands of the Dead, though.

IMO, you should leave Death behind if you want to enter the Golden Age or some previous period. That shouldn't mean you have to do the entire Westfaring/Descent stick whenever you quest - it gets as long in the wind and tedious (to play or narrate) as the stairwell into the Cthulhu Dreamlands. (That might mean that in order to go to Orlanth's final contest with Yelm, you'd have to wrestle away or steal Humakt's sword on the quest.)

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Surely if you are in Hell, then you are by definition dead already.

Yes, though think there was a considerable debate on this in an old thread.  But there is dead (in the Underworld but body and spirit still together), and there is dead (body and spirit separated with spirit on the road to the afterlife).  The former includes any quest path into Hell (including the ones in SKoH to rescue Hofstaring and in Eleven Lights to recover the Three Stars), as well as entering Alkoth (I don't remember if it was Enclosure, or perhaps discussions surrounding material that went there, but there were some nice symbolic deaths to pass through the Alkothi gates).