🌚 Blue Moon and the pre-Rebel Gods myths

[Qizilbashwoman]

In narratives of Glorantha in and out of the Entekosiad, there are many hints that the Blue Moon being struck from the sky was related to the ascent of the Sun. Annilla (name spelled 14 different ways) is a Bad Bird for the Rinliddi and thus a demon bat who killed Yelm. Elsewhere she poisoned the Sun, thus enabling the Rebel God to kill Him.

We know that the Darsenian myth says that Brightsun usurped his appointed role as warleader and seized political power, pushing out the rightful queen-goddess (it was the Green Age, so hard to distinguish the two).

Was this an earlier, native Pelorian myth rewritten and eventually mostly erased in favor of the Orlanth/Rebel-kills-the-Sun during the codification the World in the early days of the Dawn?

The entire blue streak thing is a little confusing.

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

In narratives of Glorantha in and out of the Entekosiad, there are many hints that the Blue Moon being struck from the sky was related to the ascent of the Sun. Annilla (name spelled 14 different ways) is a Bad Bird for the Rinliddi and thus a demon bat who killed Yelm. Elsewhere she poisoned the Sun, thus enabling the Rebel God to kill Him.

We know that the Darsenian myth says that Brightsun usurped his appointed role as warleader and seized political power, pushing out the rightful queen-goddess (it was the Green Age, so hard to distinguish the two).

Was this an earlier, native Pelorian myth rewritten and eventually mostly erased in favor of the Orlanth/Rebel-kills-the-Sun during the codification the World in the early days of the Dawn?

The entire blue streak thing is a little confusing.

Yes, the Blue Moon narratives and it being shot out of the sky are several.

The Storm Age and Greater Darkness Lunar Empire (or actually two of those) was located in Pamaltela, starting in the southeast, then central south, then southeast and northwest - the Artmali Empire of the Veldang race, the mortal offspring of the goddess and celestial body Veldara, the Blue Moon.

Twin sister of Tolat, known to the Pelorians as Shargash, born after Yelm was slain from Black Dendara or in Pamaltelan myth Enjata Mo, the first of the Sky Witches that rose after the greater sun disintegrated.

The White Queens were cyclical rulers of at least Darsen, possibly a lot more of Peloria, and of the sky dome, prior to Brighteye's usurpation of emperorhood and interruption of the day and night cycles of the sky (at least IMO).

Verithurus was the female northern Planetary "Son" and guardian of Mernita, the city that would later be crushed by a large part of fragments of a Blue Moon.

The Bad Bird of Rinliddi was the (I was told back then Scarlet) Bat, another celestial body known by the God Learners as Artia, now one of the Southpath planets. (There is at least one RQ2-era source that refers to Artia as a moon.)

Book of Drastic Resolutions: Volume Darkness published some expanded articles on Greg's work in progress thoughts on the Blue Moon Plateau that I also experienced in a memorable improvised convention game narrated by Greg at a Tentacles convention, using Hero Wars or HeroQuest 1 rules. That setting had bat-like trolls (two varieties, one with an extra pair of wings in addition to arms and legs, and the other, older version with arms like bats and shortened, gripping feet), worshipers of Mahaqata the Bat. Mahaqata was a separate deity from Annilla, as the trolls there knew the Blue Moon goddess of the Plateau.

The Annilla mythos and history (from RQ3 Troll Gods) has very little in common with the Lesilla myths in Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.

 

The Blue Streak and its effect on the tides stems from Annilla's / Veldara's marriage to Lorion, the Sky River Titan, and his invasion of the Skydome. The Annilla cult makes that Annilla's second marriage, after her first to an unnamed ancestor of the Elder Giants. It isn't clear how many Eldest Giants were born from that marriage, but the Elder Giants had a pre-Green Age conflict with the (newly arrived) dragons, and emerged from that in second place, with Annilla's husband slain (dismembered?) in the struggle. (That was long before Death even was a concept...)

According to the Troll Gods myth, Annilla devoured the corpse of her dead husband (or at least some reproductive juice) and gave birth to a stillborn child (hence the corpse-blue color) on which she rose from the Underworld as the trolls were forced to evacuate Wonderhome, too, and as Lorion began his ascent into the sky. Annilla aka Veldara aka Serartamal (which probably means "mother of Artmal") mated with Lorion and gave birth to Armal, who lived on Veldara's body. After taking a human wife from somewhere in the South (Revealed Mythologies gives her name as Cathora. She and her husband spawned the first generations of Artmali during her 100 births on Veldara before descending to Tenel, nowadays in the swamps east of Zamokil in southeasternmost Pamaltela. Another wave of Veldan disembarked from the body of Veldara in violet cloud ships that turned into more mundane boats when making contact with the still zone of Sramak's River south of the Pamaltelan continent.

The movement of the moon and that of the Armali peoples were separate from then onward.

According to Dara Happan myth (Glorious ReAscent), it was Lukarius who shot down Lesilla. God Learner monomyth and the Annilla cult tell a story of Storm Gods playing some sort of rough ball game with Annilla's physical body (her stillborn child from her dead first husband). Other forces (IIRC including one expression of Tolat) also claim to have destroyed the Blue Moon.

Glorantha's God Time being cyclical, I reckon all of these stories are true as separate stories each in its own subcycle, and all link and overlap into a greater cosmological moment or super-cycle identified in the Monomyth. Debris from the body of the Storm Age Blue Moon is found above Mernita in the Blue Moon Plateau, a smaller amount in coastal southern Loskalm, and I would be astonished if one of the Pamaltelan cities of the Armali wasn't crushed under some of that fall-out, either, even though Revealed Mythologies remains silent about that.

The spiritual part of Annilla never followed the debris, but climbed higher and higher in the sky following Lorion, and when Sky River Titan leapt down to kill Korang the Slayer (at SKyfall Lake in Dragon Pass) and then flowed south (using part of the former bed of Aroka or Sshor or Oslir River) into Choralinthor Bay and onward to the Void that Magasta plugged with his Maelstrom, Annilla's spiritual or light/glow form leapt down into the pool to join her wounded but victorious husband. That's how the Blue Streak originated, and how all the upper world and surface world waters followed Annilla's lead to join Magasta and Sky River Titan. During the rest of the Greater Darkness, Annilla apparently climbed up the outer side of the now night- and star-covered Sky Dome, to continue plummeting down from the sky roughly twice a week, creating the tides of the seas (and even Lake Felster).

The basically land-locked Pelorians and Blue Moon Plateau trolls didn't learn much about the tides of the seas, and the Waertagi of Poralistor and Oronin River (Bethegus, Boatman of the West) didn't spread the story of the tides much, either, but many a coastal community and the Loper People (a Veldang nation only partly descended from the Blue Moon) kept worshiping this aspect.

Lesilla as nurturer of the Turning City of Mernita appears together with Verithurus(a)) the (then red, formerly white) guardian of Mernita and one of the surviving Planetary Sons and metropolis orbs, may not ever hovered anywhere except above Mernita. The Red Goddess or her greater mystical manifestation, Sedenya, claims Lesilla as one of her previous avatars/expressions, but doesn't claim any control over the Tides.

Personally, I tend to regard Lesilla as a lesser manifestation of the Blue Moon Annilla/Veldara/Serartamal that fell due to Lukarius, contributing to the total fall of Annilla at the hands of Storm Gods, or possibly during Orlanth's battles defendin the Sky from the Sky Terror. Tolat/Shargash had turned against Verithurusa, the Red Moon of the later Golden Age, and his conflict with his female Brother may have contributed to the crash of the Blue Moon and the Mernita orb, too. Orb and Annilla's body might even have been separate celestial or at least lowest Middle Air entities before crashing together onto Mernita.

 

Altogether, many confusing and hardly documented things happened to blue bodies in the Sky, and the Zaranistangi second blue celestial home body Emilla (Mastakos/Uleria) did weird stuff, too. Relying only on the traumatized Pelorian celestial lore from this era will leave out important stuff that went into the God Learner Monomyth learned from their conquest of formerly Loper/Zaranistangi-ruled Eest aka Teshnos/Melib.

On Melib, Annilla is not just a goddess of the tides, but also of rice (or rice farming, IMO possibly in brackish tidal waters).  Both Maslo and Kethaela have ties to the Mistress of the Tides (and to friendly Ludoch, at least the Right Arm Isles Pelaskites, although Prince of Sartar assigns the moon rune to the God Forgot folk among their Left Arm tidal flats.)

To confuse things even more, the Spiral Map (presumably of the Holy Country Other Side entered by participants in the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death) has three Lunar mountains, one of them blue. The White and Red ones might be presentations of Mt. Jernotius with unsullied Jernotius/a (or Verithurus) in white and Natha-sulllied Mt. Jernotius in red, or some Verithurus(a) and some mutual Shargash(Tolat connection, or...

 

The Blue Moon is the Moon of Secrets. Unfortunately that also includes lots of secrets from us Glorantha scholars.

[Qizilbashwoman]

The Zaranistangi are technically para-Artmali, right? I understand that they are not descended from Artmal but are like his kinfolk also from the Blue Moon. The Three-Eyed Blue who stole ironworking are Zaranistangi; Three-Eyed Piku is the son of Dengbalu, who offered human sacrifice to invoke Tolat against Sshorg to save his people from drowning in Sechkaul. I remember reading somewhere that Dengbalu, who had the Sword of Tolat, brought bat-winged trolls back with him from the Blue Moon Plateau to Melib before he began his pilgrimmage to the West.

[Joerg]

I am unaware of any connection between Third Eye Blue and the Zaranistangi of Melib or Teshnos. While there is worship of the Red Planet deity in Jonatela, there is no extant trace of blue skinned people anywhere nearby, and those that used to be there were riverine Waertagi and Kachisti and Vadeli sorcerer caste, all of these subsumed in the Sweet Sea and Lake Oronin tales.

Yes, the Zaranistangi are a sister population of the Artmali, apparently not descended from Artmal (in a genealogically meaningful way, i.e. through a traceable lineage).

While human sacrifice to Tolat (or Annilla) is possible for Dengbalu, the only confirmed mention of human sacrifice by the Loper People is to the Blue Moon in Slontos. Sacrifice normally means personal magic, items, and beasts, possibly personal blood, and I see no clea evidence for human sacrifice by Dengbalu. The sacrifices stopped by Turvenost (an arrival from the south) were to any gods.

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

I see no clea evidence for human sacrifice by Dengbalu

Isn't that how he saved Melib from Sshorg, by human sacrifice to Tolat?

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Isn't that how he saved Melib from Sshorg, by human sacrifice to Tolat?

By sticking the Red Sword into the bedrock, with Tolat pulling the land up to remain above the sea.

There was sacrifice to Tolat, yes, but that can mean anything from personal magic expenditure via paper lantern via flowers via food of all kind via artistic endeavors like plays to slaughtering animals and only in extreme cases humans (with certain cultures sacrificing their rulers).

Tolat is a war god, but we don't hear about step pyramids afloat with the heartblood of the sacrificed captives of war.

We do hear about human sacrifices made by the Loper People in Slontos around 800 ST, in weird 16 days intervals (Tolat's period is 28 days), and to Annilla, not to Tolat. I doubt they were of a similar scale as the Lunar Empire's weekly sacrifices to the Crimson Bat in times of peace.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Six Ages isn't necessarily "canon" for non-Six Ages Gloranthan material (its Elmal depiction seems to clash with the current idea that Chaosium has of him, for example, but let's not go there in this thread), however it's the best depiction we've ever had of the Third Eye Blue. In that, they appear as blue-skinned Westerners/Sorcerers, but with African-esque looks (could be other regions).

I'm tempted to think that Danmalstan's Original Peoples were racially diverse, either from the onset (in which case the idea of "biological" (runic?) descent from some iteration of Malkion is perhaps a post-hoc founding myth/legal fiction - which knowing the God Time doesn't necessarily make it untrue) - or that they integrated neighbors over time.

This is a bit of an aside to the whole Blue Moon stuff, though admittedly the Blue Moon touches so much of Glorantha that it's virtually impossible to delineate it.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

30 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Six Ages isn't necessarily "canon" for non-Six Ages Gloranthan material (its Elmal depiction seems to clash with the current idea that Chaosium has of him, for example, but let's not go there in this thread),

No clashes in sight, really. When exactly does the Hill of Gold quest take place? That's where the spearman of the cold sun lost his fire powers. If the Hyalorings still are farming, Elmal and Yelmalio still have fire powers.

 

30 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

however it's the best depiction we've ever had of the Third Eye Blue. In that, they appear as blue-skinned Westerners/Sorcerers, but with African-esque looks (could be other regions).

My impression: Mycenean heavies from Jamaica/Samoa. I don't remember their skin as particularly bluish, but rather  dark.

30 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I'm tempted to think that Danmalstan's Original Peoples were racially diverse, either from the onset (in which case the idea of "biological" (runic?) descent from some iteration of Malkion is perhaps a post-hoc founding myth/legal fiction - which knowing the God Time doesn't necessarily make it untrue) - or that they integrated neighbors over time.

I have started wondering how much Danmalastan has always been a low level Other Side for Brithela. It would make those different storylines so much easier to reconcile.

30 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is a bit of an aside to the whole Blue Moon stuff, though admittedly the Blue Moon touches so much of Glorantha that it's virtually impossible to delineate it.

The Blue Moon was shattered quite effectively, so the fall-out may have covered many places. (That's not what you meant by "touches", though...)

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

No clashes in sight, really. When exactly does the Hill of Gold quest take place? That's where the spearman of the cold sun lost his fire powers. If the Hyalorings still are farming, Elmal and Yelmalio still have fire powers.

 

Except, if I've understood Chaosium's current/forthcoming direction - Elmal has ALWAYS been Yelmalio, and everyone who believes otherwise is just invoking YGMV - but, please, *please* let us not take up blue moon real estate on yet another tail-chasing many suns discussion.
 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

My impression: Mycenean heavies from Jamaica/Samoa. I don't remember their skin as particularly bluish, but rather  dark.

Quote

Bollocks, you're right. They're not blue - rather the third eye they have painted/scarified in their forehead is blue, as is some of the accent colors on their clothing.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Blue Moon was shattered quite effectively, so the fall-out may have covered many places. (That's not what you meant by "touches", though...)

Well, I meant it in a literary sense, but a literal sense works as well.

Six Ages also show us Mostali out looting fallen Blue Moon bits. It's not much, but it adds to the info we have that says the Mostali views the Moon(s) as a part of the fully functioning World Machine. At least most dwarves in time, but who knows whether the Mostali were split on the issue during the Storm Age.

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

Tolat is a war god, but we don't hear about step pyramids afloat with the heartblood of the sacrificed captives of war.

I mean, uh, we did hear about that. We Hate Darjiinian Usurpers is still used as an excuse by Alkoth to grab victims. The last non-Mongoose release of material discussed Shargash raiding the Darjiini. For example, Dorkath, the Manimati city, has a bell tower in case Alkoth decides to go on a "crusade", which includes taking prisoners for mass human sacrifices. "The city is famous for its splendid bell tower, a soaring edifice that towers over the Frangin Quarter. The bell only rings to the sound of the Drums of Alkoth to signal a city-wide evacuation. ... When the war drums of Alkoth beat, all of Henjarl trembles."

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

They're not blue - rather the third eye they have painted/scarified in their forehead is blue, as is some of the accent colors on their clothing.

These are the Third-Eye Blue, who might be descended from the Zaranistangi with much intermarriage or might just be cultists of Piku. The eye being blue I think is key to the thing, either as a memorial to their ancestors, who were definitely actually blue, or to Piku, who is in fact blue. Opening their blue eye to the metalworking magics he stole from the Mostali...

The game might just be like "you assume Genertelans are, like, all white people" or else they are supposed to have lost the blue and regained it only magically through initiation because of intermarriage with locals (there weren't THAT many Zaranistangi in Genertela).

They certainly aren't just unexplained Agimori, although there are absolutely plenty of Agimori in Genertela.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I mean, uh, we did hear about that. We Hate Darjiinian Usurpers is still used as an excuse by Alkoth to grab victims. 

Ok, the walled city of Alkoth is a part of Hell, so whoever gets captured and dragged there technically dies when entering. I am fairly certain that the Shadzoring inhabitants of Greater Darkness Alkoth brought in captives to keep their larders filled, so there was that motivation, too, but at latest with Eusibus submitting to Khordavu the age of the Shadzorings on the Surface World appears to have ended.

Like I said, any captive brought into the city technically already has died. Now it is possible to sacrifice a corpse (regardless whether it walks and breathes), so Shargash temples might sacrifice those captives directly. I'd find it more likely to use them as target practice for martial temple endeavors (similar to the Strikes of Anger Yelmalio heroquest that Biturian Varosh was "invited" to participate in).

But then, Tolat and Shargash share the same planet, but not that much myth. Shargash has never been depicted wielding a red sword, but instead has his (skull-topped) mace.

Quote

The last non-Mongoose release of material discussed Shargash raiding the Darjiini. For example, Dorkath, the Manimati city, has a bell tower in case Alkoth decides to go on a "crusade", which includes taking prisoners for mass human sacrifices. "The city is famous for its splendid bell tower, a soaring edifice that towers over the Frangin Quarter. The bell only rings to the sound of the Drums of Alkoth to signal a city-wide evacuation. ... When the war drums of Alkoth beat, all of Henjarl trembles."

Yes, when the Alkothi come, run away or have your skull caved in lethally. I don't see any explicit mention of taking prisoners for mass sacrifice back home - the Shargashi way of sacrifice is on the battle-field, you might say.

That doesn't mean that this could not happen - it just doesn't say so explicitely, any more than it does for ZZ rites.

 

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

These are the Third-Eye Blue, who might be descended from the Zaranistangi with much intermarriage

I just don't see any evidence at all for Zaranistangi in Fronela. There are (presumably Blue) Moon fragments in Croesium in Pomons, eastern Loskalm, upriver from Isefwal. If there had been any Zaranistangi in Third Age Loskalm, they probably would have recognized the sword exhibited in Spada, also in Pomons (upriver from Pomona).

But then, for the Third Eye Blue to have been descended from Zaranistangi, the Zaranistangi would have to have been present at least as far back as the migration of the Andin Horde, in the Late Golden Age or earliest Storm Age. That period saw a lot of blue-skinned sorcerers in the region - Kachisti, Vadeli, Waertagi. No need to go Veldang for them.

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

or might just be cultists of Piku. The eye being blue I think is key to the thing, either as a memorial to their ancestors, who were definitely actually blue, or to Piku, who is in fact blue. Opening their blue eye to the metalworking magics he stole from the Mostali...

The only (mandatorily) blue feature of the Third Eye Blue is the blue eye tattoed to their foreheads.

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

The game might just be like "you assume Genertelans are, like, all white people" or else they are supposed to have lost the blue and regained it only magically through initiation because of intermarriage with locals (there weren't THAT many Zaranistangi in Genertela).

No. I think that they are dark-skinned Warerans, like quite a few populations, including the original Dronar caste of the Brithini/Malkioni. The TEB warrior-smiths appear to tower quite a bit.

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They certainly aren't just unexplained Agimori, although there are absolutely plenty of Agimori in Genertela.

Pithdarans and Praxian Men-and-a-Half, plus Masloi and Fonritian sailors. That's about it.

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by Joerg

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

These are the Third-Eye Blue, who might be descended from the Zaranistangi with much intermarriage or might just be cultists of Piku. The eye being blue I think is key to the thing, either as a memorial to their ancestors, who were definitely actually blue, or to Piku, who is in fact blue. Opening their blue eye to the metalworking magics he stole from the Mostali...

The game might just be like "you assume Genertelans are, like, all white people" or else they are supposed to have lost the blue and regained it only magically through initiation because of intermarriage with locals (there weren't THAT many Zaranistangi in Genertela).

They certainly aren't just unexplained Agimori, although there are absolutely plenty of Agimori in Genertela.

It's quite possible their visual design was intended to act as a way to subvert people's expectations with regards to racial distribution. Since the Third Eye Blue depicted in Six Ages are from the Storm Age (when the game takes place), it's difficult, if not impossible, to know what their relation to Modern Age Piku of Apple Lane is - at least for me. Blue skin, not blue skin, Zaranistangi or Danmalastans (or both?), etc. Lots of unknowns here.

I don't think their journey is too marked by the blue moon though. Lots of Pelorian myths from the Entekosiad seems to mark Western "Logicians" with the color blue in some sense, which might mean a lot of things. It could be a reference to skin colors (there are both aquatic and surface people coming up the Janube who have blue skin colors, iirc) it can refer to some overall association with sorcery as blue (Zzabur's Blue Book, Malkion is often associated with blue, iirc, etc.), and lastly perhaps it's some kind of nagivational color, with blue representing the sunset, west, evening, etc. This is a bit odd coming from the God Time when the sky was always lit of course, but if what Joerg and others, including myself believe is true, then the Green Age actually did have a day-night cycle of *some* sort, so it might make sense. 

On the topic of Agimori, most of the cases we know arrived after the Dawn iirc, like the Men-And-Half and Pithdarans (I can't think of other groups off the top of my head.), though it's not like it would be impossible for them to travel north during the God Time.

[Qizilbashwoman]

27 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Piku of Apple Lane

Is the Piku of Apple Lane the god Three-Eyed Piku? I thought he lived under Kitor in Carmania. I know basically nothing about Apple Lane, a weird hole in my awareness.

27 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

though it's not like it would be impossible for them to travel north during the God Time.

Well we know a large contigent arrived in Pithdaros, as you said, in 719. They are now Hrestoli. There are also the Pygmies, who are sometimes described as being Agimori immigrants as well; some are in Prax like the Men-and-a-Half and others are elsewhere and might not be related.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is the Piku of Apple Lane the god Three-Eyed Piku? I thought he lived under Kitor in Carmania. I know basically nothing about Apple Lane, a weird hole in my awareness.

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I know extremely little about the "classic core" of Glorantha as well, since I came into this setting in a slightly odd way, with esoteric texts first and the nitty-gritty gaming material later, and mostly through second-hand sources (wiki, online discussions, free fan material, etc.)

However, you're entirely right, Three-Eyed Piku has dwarf slaves in Kitor in Carmania. There is also a Piku who may (or may not?) belong to the Third Eye Blue in Apple Lane. Not sure about the relation.

I'm also not sure if Piku of Kitor is an actual god or just a really powerful sorcerer. He is referred to as a god, apparently, but the distinction there can be vague, imho.

[scott-martin]

11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

However, you're entirely right, Three-Eyed Piku has dwarf slaves in Kitor in Carmania. There is also a Piku who may (or may not?) belong to the Third Eye Blue in Apple Lane. Not sure about the relation.

The Council of Friends evidently first encountered 3EB somewhere around "central and western Peloria," so that points to a Carmanian connection for at least one branch. (There may be several.)

Apple Lane is either a silly place or practically a short world in its own right, which adds up to the same thing in the end.

Cracked Blue Moon Divination of the Day (a whopping 11 rune points sacrificed and spent): Thinking the eastern lore crawling around the house of Aignor includes worship of the planet twins (possibly including dynastic incest) so that's how that piece "lands" in the far west. Anilla [Annila in variant texts] didn't get that name for no reason. Much of the familiar account in Troll Gods may actually be a misrepresentation / screen memory of her cult teaching, later mostly buried as "atrocity." What this means for the Tarshite twins cult I don't know. 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Is the Piku of Apple Lane the god Three-Eyed Piku?

More likely a sorcerous worshiper of the god. Piku might be his title rather than personal name as head of the family and smithy.

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I thought he lived under Kitor in Carmania. I know basically nothing about Apple Lane, a weird hole in my awareness.

Apple Lane (which I refer to as Gringlestead) is geared to provide Gringle a place where his unconventional followers may live. As an Issaries merchant, Gringle apparently preferred to live in an idyllic trade post rather than a fortress, although his pawnshop is rather designed as a stronghold than as a leisurely home. But then, he could always visit the Uleria temple for that.

It would be interesting to learn where and when Gringle picked up the Third Eye Blue blacksmith, and what made him harbor a dwarf-foe.

 

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Well we know a large contigent arrived in Pithdaros, as you said, in 719. They are now Hrestoli. 

When they aren't good Rokari, like that sorcerer in the Streets of Noloswal panel in the Seshnela section of the Guide.

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There are also the Pygmies, who are sometimes described as being Agimori immigrants as well;

True, the Impala riders are very dark-skinned, but they don't have typical African/Agimori physiognomy, which might be better described as Wareran. (If there is a color Warerans don't come in, it probably is something weird.) They were part of the migration down the Spike into Genert's Garden led by the Storm Bull. The Bolo Lizard riders are pygmies, too, and we don't know much about their appearance.

I don't see any indication for kinship between the Impala Riders and the Wasp Riders, or the Gopher People in northern Pent.

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

some are in Prax like the Men-and-a-Half and others are elsewhere and might not be related.

The entire "Agimori phenotype" concept contains at least one group which shares no ancestors with the Agimori - the Thinobutan peoples. (But then "Wareran race" includes only a rather small portion of people actually descended from Malkion, as neither Hill Barbarians, Praxian Beast Nomads or Oasis Folk nor Pelorians usually have any Malkioni ancestry.)

This makes the classification of the multi-hued Teleosans as Agimori quite vexing - are they another of the Thinobutan, northwestern Pamaltelan "made people", or are they the leftovers of the migration that saw the Men-and-a-Half arrive in Genert's Garden?

39 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The Council of Friends evidently first encountered 3EB somewhere around "central and western Peloria," so that points to a Carmanian connection for at least one branch. (There may be several.)

Pelandan connection - Carmania was begun at least 600 years later.

If you say "Council of Friends", this encounter must have been before hostile contact with the Horse Warlords (by anyone but the Uz, who may have kept the horse plus rider or horse-team plus chariot plus charioteers dinner order secret from the rest. They may also have had a tacit non-aggression agreement with the Shadzorings.) In that case, the encounter would point to Anadikki or Doblian.

 

39 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Cracked Blue Moon Divination of the Day (a whopping 11 rune points sacrificed and spent): Thinking the eastern lore crawling around the house of Aignor includes worship of the planet twins (possibly including dynastic incest) so that's how that piece "lands" in the far west. Anilla [Annila in variant texts] didn't get that name for no reason. Much of the familiar account in Troll Gods may actually be a misrepresentation / screen memory of her cult teaching, later mostly buried as "atrocity." What this means for the Tarshite twins cult I don't know. 

There isn't any mention of lunar fall-out for Old Seshnela, only Croesium in Isefwal gets an impact crater and some selenic minerals.

Any opinion on the Moon Goddess mountain in the northern Shan Shan, west of Shiyang?

 

The Twins in the Monomyth receive a Celestial Court status - neither Elements or Powers, but Elder Gods alongside Grower and Maker and other such primordial entities. That makes me consider Tolat and Annilla/Veldara as a manifestation of the originals rather than the original holders of twinhood. The Caladra&Aurelion experiment shows that twinhood can be projected to other deities than blue moon and red planet.

It is still possible and even likely that the Seshnegi cosmologists knew of the Twins only through Tolat and Annilla, though.

 

I noticed that I ignored this initial statement in my replies so far:

On 7/28/2019 at 10:26 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

In narratives of Glorantha in and out of the Entekosiad, there are many hints that the Blue Moon being struck from the sky was related to the ascent of the Sun.

Personally, I don't see any evidence for a Blue Moon before the death/dismemberment of the Imperial Sun.

If you look at the Copper Tablets 7 and 8 (Guide p.116 for the illustrations), you will see that Umath's invasion of the Upper Sky (from Stormgate) did involve striking several "Planetary Sons" with Lunar identification from the Sky. Also the Red Planet (which I suspect was green up to the impact with Umath). Both Alkor and Verithurus(a/us)/Jernedeus enter the Underworld together with Umath, and both emerge in shades of red. Both remain protector deities of their respective cities or return as such (according to the God Learner Maps descriptions of the Godtime Sky, in the Early and Middle Storm Age) in the post flood-era despite that change.

This does leave me a problem with an overabundance of Lunar stages during Anaxial's trip. Post-Anaxial, we get Jernedeus as Lord of Mernita as per GRoY, and Lesilla as feeding it, while Gerra already was smuggled onto the Ark by Herustana to become the future wife of Lukarius who would cause "the erratical sun of Mernita" to fall to the ground through his great justice (or perhaps his bow?).

 

On the other hand, the ascent of the sun (or rather the ascent of Brightface) didn't necessarily crash the White Queen's (orbiting? in any case cyclical) celestial body. More likely, Brightface bound it into a fixed position of his Sunstop, at a guess the northern position of Jernedeus. Or possibly several at once, as other Planetary Sons also qualify for Lunar partitions. Even Reladivus(/a) which would become Kargzant. But there was no Blue in the sky, yet.

After that first rise of Brightface (and his brothers, although the jury still is out whether Arraz/Lux was one), there was a second rise born from helplessness when the river invaded Dara Happa (from the north! ? !) and Yelm's purity lifted him off the Pillar (Ledareeshta, the Throne - apparently different from the Footstool).

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Pelandan connection - Carmania was begun at least 600 years later.

If you say "Council of Friends", this encounter must have been before hostile contact with the Horse Warlords (by anyone but the Uz, who may have kept the horse plus rider or horse-team plus chariot plus charioteers dinner order secret from the rest. They may also have had a tacit non-aggression agreement with the Shadzorings.) In that case, the encounter would point to Anadikki or Doblian.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Proto-Carmania, Pelanda.

The 3EB emissary in BCG seems to have shown up fairly recently as of 355: "a newcomer to Dorastor, the first of the Third Eye Blue peoples [sic] to come to the Council." Apparently world famous in central and western Peloria, almost a Gonn Orta type or incarnation of some metal-working figure from the Entekosiad. Might also be where the old human metallurgist culture went when Halikiv was revised to become a troll region. Where does 3EB appear in the Genertela box, if anywhere? Would be good to compare.

Then the very expensive divination starts to unfold:

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

There isn't any mention of lunar fall-out for Old Seshnela, only Croesium in Isefwal gets an impact crater and some selenic minerals.

Any opinion on the Moon Goddess mountain in the northern Shan Shan, west of Shiyang?

The Twins in the Monomyth receive a Celestial Court status - neither Elements or Powers, but Elder Gods alongside Grower and Maker and other such primordial entities. That makes me consider Tolat and Annilla/Veldara as a manifestation of the originals rather than the original holders of twinhood. The Caladra&Aurelion experiment shows that twinhood can be projected to other deities than blue moon and red planet.

It is still possible and even likely that the Seshnegi cosmologists knew of the Twins only through Tolat and Annilla, though.

I'm not thinking any Blue Moon (or Red Planet) reflected in Boltror's line is a native Seshnelan influence so much as a foreign import brought carried from his mysterious wife and then transmitted to the kids, ultimately producing An[n]il[l]a and the final incestuous end of the Serpent King system. From there, the winners would have twisted or suppressed accounts of the House of Aignor (not sure what color Vadeli he was, either . . . "trader" but also "judge," although there are no yellows), possibly feeding into the febrile fragments of Thorloss the Scribe. 

In this view the rule of the Aignorids would have been Too Awful To Think About. Which maybe it was. 

[Joerg]

 

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The 3EB emissary in BCG seems to have shown up fairly recently as of 355: "a newcomer to Dorastor, the first of the Third Eye Blue peoples [sic] to come to the Council." Apparently world famous in central and western Peloria, almost a Gonn Orta type or incarnation of some metal-working figure from the Entekosiad. Might also be where the old human metallurgist culture went when Halikiv was revised to become a troll region.

I wouldn't make the name Halikiv as that important for Dari's origin, but that tribal knowledge about the smithing god. Unfortunately, the East Wilds don't really lend themselves much to hereditary metal-working, although Aruzban Ironarm of Delela appears to have an unusual source for metal, too.

 

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Where does 3EB appear in the Genertela box, if anywhere? Would be good to compare.

In the mountains next to the Uncolings in Tastolar, Fronela.

 

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Then the very expensive divination starts to unfold:

I'm not thinking any Blue Moon (or Red Planet) reflected in Boltror's line is a native Seshnelan influence so much as a foreign import brought carried from his mysterious wife and then transmitted to the kids, ultimately producing An[n]il[l]a and the final incestuous end of the Serpent King system. From there, the winners would have twisted or suppressed accounts of the House of Aignor (not sure what color Vadeli he was, either . . . "trader" but also "judge," although there are no yellows), possibly feeding into the febrile fragments of Thorloss the Scribe. 

If you say Aignor was a Vadeli, then so was Hrestol. From what I have seen, Aignor's grandmother appears to be Florina, Hrestol's wife from Brithos. It isn't clear where his father got his wife from, but even if he should have taken a Vadeli wife, Aignor would at best be half Vadeli by descent.

Aignor was neither Malkioni nor Hrestolist. He went  and mated with Seshna, aiding his serpent-legged cousins.

From what I know about Vadeli judges, they are non-Vadeli outsiders necessary because of the absence of the yellows, and probably should be Talars, indicating a yellow-ish skin type. It would go against their purpose if they went native.

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

In this view the rule of the Aignorids would have been Too Awful To Think About. Which maybe it was. 

Pamala, Aignor's daughter in Law, was "from the East", in a place visited by the Waertagi probably within the first years after Boltror's departure.

[scott-martin]

I am letting go of pre-troll Halikiv . . . whatever role they played before the Genertela Box might be inherited elsewhere. Talsard makes a fine place for the expanding Council to encounter independent 3EB metallurgy. I can see that as a trigger for global dwarf leadership's complete meltdown around this period.

On 8/1/2019 at 2:21 PM, Joerg said:

If you say Aignor was a Vadeli, then so was Hrestol. From what I have seen, Aignor's grandmother appears to be Florina, Hrestol's wife from Brithos. It isn't clear where his father got his wife from, but even if he should have taken a Vadeli wife, Aignor would at best be half Vadeli by descent.

I say so! His volume of the epic of the West is called "The Vadeli Trader" and everything. Until recently I've never had more than a minute to confirm the contents but it is rocking my socks right now with ach, drastic resolutions between all the peoples of the northern ocean. ("It was then that I learned the children of the sea are the cousins of the Brithini, just as I am of the bears.")

Aignor is definitely of the people of Vadela because they're a matrilineal [sic, come at me] culture and while the Judges apparently recognize descent on the male line, he comes to Seshnela steeped in their ways. He seems like a good guy, which makes me think somewhere since then the weight of zzaburist propaganda turned.