hipsterinspace

Additionally, if the subservient cult offers all of its magic and secrets to the main cult, what rationale would there be for anyone to ever seek out and initiate into it as an independent cult?

The line with Heler seems to blur with each response, I think it's a relevant question of what degree being cast as an "accessory to Orlanth" along the lines of Lightning Boy integrates the cult, whether they do share a rune pool and secret rites. I suppose we'll find out more about their thinking with the cults book when it eventually comes out. While Heler does have an independent mythology, the degree to which that's integrated into Orlanth as a subservient entity seems relevant. I'm genuinely curious to what extent a line exists and where that line is for the people writing the game.

Do they gain access to the unique magic of Barntar or Heler this way, or are they restricted to Thunderous’s magic and the associate spells of Tame Bull and Rain respectively unless they find a place where the independent cult exists and initiate fully?

In some of the posts on Well of Daliath Jeff has said things to the effect of Barntar being specifically an aspect of Orlanth Thunderous, that he is unambiguously Orlanth. There are fewer mechanical questions with that because all of Orlanth’s subcults share a rune pool anyway. I saw a post by David somewhere on the forum that laid out the most straightforward way to represent Barntar as Thunderous with Tame Bull (already available as an associate), Plow, and Command Cattle. As for Heler, I suppose the big question is whether someone who is a self-styled Heler follower in Dragon Pass is a full Heler initiate who is part of the rites of Orlanth Thunderous (or whatever river god in the other case) as an associate out of necessity due to lack of an independent cult infrastructure, a (sub-)subcult that is integrated into the secret rites of the main cult, or whether it truly is just the Rain associate spell and there are no initiates.

So, for clarity, in the case of a given Sartarite follower of Barntar or Heler, would the follower of the subservient cult be classified as an initiate of Barntar/Heler who worships as a part of the Orlanth Thunderous cult (as there is no independent cult), or are they instead an initiate of Orlanth Thunderous in a subordinate aspect like Orlanth Adventurous’s Four Magic Weapons?

Nandani follow the Ernaldan role, per the description they are women born in the shape of men, that appears to be broadly the point of Nandan as (sub)cult and a gender. I'd also imagine plenty of Ernaldan women from the "Orlanthi All" work as skilled crafters, especially in cities like Jonstown: the starter set tells us as much. Ernalda seems to be the patron of many crafts, anything that grows or comes from the earth is something she has input in mythically. Ernalda's close cultic ties with Mahome means that bakers and cooks are also included within the broader Ernaldan complex. Issaries seems to be an important cult for the role of the crafter-proprietor, but outside of an urban environment that probably doesn't have much purchase.

In the core rules your loyalty passions are what you use to secure support from a patron or group, so it reflects that it would be more difficult to secure their support

I'd have thought that would be something done through Argan Argar rather than through direct worship

Trolls wouldn’t ever worship Lodril, he is a Fire/Sky god. In troll mythology he is a prominent mythic foe of Argan Argar, Argan Argar’s victory over him and consequent marriage to Esrola gives his cult the (quite good) Suppress Lodril rune spell. I’d presume it’s a similar relationship to the Shadow Plateau if there is any relationship to speak of.

Hrestolism and Irensavalism are not the same thing. All Malkioni in one way or another were influenced by Hrestol and the spread of his beliefs through the influence of the Middle Sea Empire, every modern sect has been significantly shaped by those ideas. Even Rokarism in Seshnela, the anti-Hrestoli theological reactionary movement that opposes his teachings the root of the God Learners’ hubris, requires first acknowledging Hrestol’s ideas. Irensavalism, the gnostic strain of Hrestolism practiced in Loskalm, is very much not the norm for Hrestoli, and their unusually ascetic pursuit of henosis is something Jeff has remarked as only being possible as a consequence of the Ban.

Hrestoli, the so-called Men-of-All, would be within rightness worshiping a deity as an emanation of the Invisible God, the God Learners—probably the most prominent Hrestoli group of all—did quite a lot of that. As for New Hrestoli, the Irensavalists, I wouldn't think there are many Loskalmi Wolf Pirates. I'd think the very syncretic Jonatelans are likely to have a few Hrestoli, especially given the role of the Talor cult (Talor himself being a Hrestoli). With the Jonatelans there's also the question of where their cultural hero Jonat Big Bear fits with Harrek, which could be a rather interesting mythic relationship. I'd think some Hrestoli Navigationalists probably count among the 5% of "Malkioni Heretics" who are part of the Wolf Pirates given their whole mytho-religious preoccupation with naval metaphors. I wouldn't think they're Amazons, I'd imagine the Amazons are likely to kill anyone who would even attempt to go to Trowjang to recruit them, but their worship of Tolat makes very clear that he's a god who is very effective for pirates to worship. Tolat is also worshiped elsewhere in Teshnos, and the protection of his worship is mentioned in the Guide as part of the history of Melib.

I was under the impression that Mularik was still a Hrestoli, just like Arkat himself.

Jeff’s breakdown puts it at roughly 20% Ygg, 33% Orlanth, 10% Dormal, 10% Humakt, with the remaining quarter or so, if you take into account origins, likely having significant numbers of Hrestoli from the 25% drawn from Fronela and other Malkioni lands. Tolat is probably worshipped by the 5% from Teshnos, especially given that their most fearsome pirates, the Amazons, worship Tolat. I’d think of the non-Dormal Water cults the biggest would be Magasta and Diros, I wouldn’t think Wachaza factors much outside of maybe the Waertegi and Triolini. Orlanth and Valind both being associates of Ygg makes those numbers interesting, it would make some amount of sense for them to be worshiped as part of an Ygg-Storm mythic complex—at the very least with lay worship—especially if the ship wyters bound in the wolf figureheads are linked with Ygg. I think it makes sense along the same lines as Jeff saying most professional warriors in Dragon Pass are going to be lay worshipers of Humakt (and it would figure most Wolf Pirates probably are too).

I could see how that works, Orlanth’s magic for control over wind and storms is probably pretty helpful on the seas without being quite as specialist. l suppose it shouldn’t be a surprise with so many other groups having the primacy of Orlanth reasserted in the most recent info coming from Jeff.

I'd assume Harrek has some worshipers among them given his personal power, heroquesting prowess, and the fact that he seems to have "heroic immortality", but the main deity that the Wolf Pirates follow seems to be Ygg, a god of sea storms.

Associate spells do come from their mythic interactions, cults become associated for a reason, and typically those associate rune spells are themselves the heroquested stories (as every rune spell is itself a tiny heroquest) of how they became so close and the things they took or lent to one another through their interactions. As a straightforward example, Yelmalio gets Shield as an associate from Yelm, probably from a myth where he is given the Shield of Justice that is later taken from him by Orlanth during the Hill of Gold myth; Elmal, on the other hand, gets his Shield as an associate from Orlanth, who didn’t defeat him and steal his shield on the Hill of Gold, but instead exchanged weapons with him in a very similar but slightly different myth. I’d think something Hyalor gets from Yelmalio would have more to do with his history as a fairly significant cult hero and ancestor.

If I had to guess, she has associate status because she brought Saird, the ancestral land of the Hyalorings (and where Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind is set), into the Lunar Empire. Hyalor probably provides Command Horse to her cult just like he does for Yelmalio. This association probably doesn’t work outside of Saird, and you definitely wouldn’t find it among the Kargzant-worshipping Pentans (or Elmal worshipping Heortlings) who venerate Hyalor.

If you run with Hyalor as a hero of Yelmalio, which seems to be broadly the case in official matterial, Hyalor himself gives Command Horse, Redaylda offers Speak with Horses, and Yelm provides shield. I don’t know how Hwarin Dalthippa fits anywhere, it seems strange to associate a somewhat niche Lunar cult with the solar horse peoples.

I think the “Issaries” rune only makes the sense as “communication” if it is the iconographic shorthand for the Issaries cult’s greatest contribution in the middle world: tradetalk, the lingua franca that almost all commerce is facilitated through. The juncture of harmony and mobility is the signifier by which you can peacefully and constructively communicate with someone no matter where or how far you travel. As for law, I think it makes sense as something generally alien to mortal comprehension as its owner and chief representative is the inaccessible and non-anthropomorphized creator of the material world, the invisible god. It seems like to “possess” law would be to attain a state of consciousness that is able to reconcile the phenomenal consciousness shared by all sentient mortals with an otherwise unknowable noumenal (pure runic) consciousness that creates enough distance and abstraction for the sorcerous manipulation of the former.

Well of Daliath is pretty unambiguous about Wachaza being shunned in the Third Age, both for his incredible cruelty and his deep association with the God Learners, whom even the Malkioni have very consciously attempted to purge the tainted legacy of. The God Learners weren’t shunned and hated for their sorcery, but for all the other stuff, messing around inside the myths of others and breaking the hero paths, trying to create a new (chaos) god with Zistor, the Goddess Swap, these things are blasphemies of unspeakable magnitude. There’s a reason the gods came together against the compromise to destroy Zistor and smite their empire, sending both Slontos and Jrustela beneath the sea. I would probably pick Magasta, Humakt, or Babeester Gor before Wachaza, maybe even Tolat as the brother of the Blue Moon (who controls the tides), but again, it’s your work.

Wachaza seems like he's taboo for most people (maybe not the Waertegi) due to his role as the primary war god of the Middle Sea Empire, the God Learners. His mythic weapons are the net and trident, the latter can be combined with his rune spell Fang of Wachaza to become quite terrifying, to say nothing of his seastrength and drown rune spells. I'd think most Esrolian marines would be initiates of the Diros, Dormal, or Choralinthor cults as sailors who are lay members in a warrior cult like Orlanth or Humakt for their combat spirit magic and weapon training. I suppose some might also initiate into Magasta, but it's my understanding that it's rare for non-triolini to do that.

Any of those options could get much sillier with the added use of an Enhance POW sorcery that functions along the same lines of Enhance INT but with Moon instead of Fire/Sky.

We know that the most common hunter cult among Heortlings is Orlanth, I think David Scott mentioned there being maybe 2 Odaylings in all of Sartar, I’d think it’s the same in Longsi Land and the Adjusted Lands of the Northwest (both of which are more recognizably Orlanthi populations). I would imagine most Esrolian hunters would likewise follow Barntar, there are probably some myths about him hunting around his stead to try to impress his wife and learning how to manage his take to avoid depleting the game. There might be the rare Yinkini hunter, though he seems likely to have a greater role in Esrolia as a god given offerings to help his children (cats) eliminate urban vermin and agricultural pests. It’s a highly developed place that doesn’t have much of a role for a “deep hunter” like Odayla or Foundchild, it doesn’t have vast forests like Tarsh where Odayla’s cult exists in real numbers or like the open chaparral of Prax and Balazar where Foundchild is worshipped.

Yeah, I'd think most shamans are probably going to be Earth Witch or Daka Fal shamans, the latter probably pretty heavily linked in their ancestor worship with the cult of Ty Kora Tek and Necropolis. IMG I have in Esrolia what are basically Aghori Daka Fal shamans at Necropolis that live among the spirits of the ancestors as ritually dead ascetics. Those few areas that aren't developed are probably the sacred forests of powerful Earth or Fertility spirit or lesser goddess (there are 10,000 of them after all) and it would probably be of great interest to a community to have a shaman to form beneficial agreements with those entities.

Something to keep in mind is something like 85% of Esrolians still follow Orlanth and Ernalda in some form, and there are many (hundreds of) forms of each great god, but the population is just so big that the other 15% has serious numbers and a lot of diversity. With that said, Orlanth is far from foreign, he has his hill in Nochet and even in the city proper there are shrines, he is the air above the land, but he is not the sovereign in the land where his wife is Queen. Orlanth is to a great degree Ernalda’s primary husband, in a sense her universal husband: while her many other husbands are important in some places and among some peoples, Orlanth is the constant. Barntar is the biggest men’s cult, largely coincident with Orlanth Thunderous magically and mythically. He is worshipped for his power and utility as an agricultural god, though as a Thunder Brother he still provides some magic for use in the militia. There are a lot of cults that are present in Esrolia that are foreign, insofar as they don’t have temples or a history of veneration. They don’t really have Foundchild natively, that’s a Prax and Balazar thing, but he might be present among Praxian mercenaries. Similarly, Storm Bull isn’t widely worshipped in Esrolia either, but the huge influx of refugees and mercenaries from Dragon Pass likely brought with it more than a few of his worshippers. This thread and especially this in it might be useful to you. There are also some really good notes on Esrolia in the Third Age on Well of Daliath.