davecake

I don't really know how the exact rules would work these days, but I see it as (like Lunar glamours) as being intrinsically linked to draconic mysticism, but perhaps superficially mimicking other magic for rules purposes. (Crested dragonnewts are just using non-draconic magic as a temporary stop-gap)

Would the Waertagi count? Considering they practice sorcery but have also adopted various water traditions and cults. Or do you mean combined as in combined in one cult/school? I think the Waertagi include sorcery, shamanism and divine worship as a culture, but their expert magicians still specialise in only of those options.

Probably occurs in Fonrit. The temple of Black Arkat might be another. I should probably have said 'combines without also involving Illumination', as I think the temple of Black Arkat are still only able to combine Troll priestess or shamanic traditions with sorcery because they also teach Illumination. This means Arkati priestesses of Kygor Litor have some (albeit sometimes limited) use of all four major forms of magic. Can't think of anyone else besides the hard core Lunars who manage that. It is true that the Garangordite Mandakusour tradition is a likely candidate to combine sorcery and shamanism, but I'm not sure. I suspect they are a Sorcery school that specialises in the Spirit rune ie they have summon and bind spells for spirits, and spirit perceptions spells, etc - but are not actually shamans with fetches, just fill a similar magical niche. Basically, a bit like the Furlandan demon-fighting school, only they think demons are cool and you bind them for your own use, maybe get into a little recreational demonology. There are plenty of spirit traditions that do not have shamans. I don't think it is necessarily that difficult for a shaman to know some sorcery spells either, just very unusual for a shaman to be able to wield the full powers of a sorcerous mage (and again, might require Illumination, not sure).

Taking it out of rules etc, trying to express it experientally: Connecting with a particular form of magic doesn’t just strengthen your connection to it, it (obviously) changes who you are, and cranes the way your mind works. You don’t just attune your mind towards particular forms of magical understanding, at a high level that involves doing so at such a pure level you must actively reject other forms of magical perception, and at such a deep level it becomes a strong habit of mind. A sorcerer must maintain a state of intellectual flow and perception of the other world, and identifying with a part of it too strongly is to lose perspective, to contact a Spirit is to be distracted by emotion and sensation. A theist devotee trying to use a feat needs to identify with their god totally, and objectively assessing their magical actions as a sorcerer would, or focussing on the sensations of their surroundings as a shaman would, pulls them out of identity. A shaman trying to use other magic on the spirit plane might get blinded and confused, get lost or ambushed or pulled back to their body. Eventually avoiding the other forms of magical perception becomes a hardened habit of mind. Mysticism itself may not actively hinder other forms of magic, but it doesn’t help, nor do most other forms of magic normally help you approach mysticism. Most see it as, at best, a pointless distraction. There are ‘loopholes’. Identifying with your god totally might not interfere with other magic, if that other magic is something your god did. You can travel the underworld as a spirit while continuing to identify with Kygor Litor, because Kygor Litor travelled the underworld. You can intellectually comprehend complex magic through sorcery while identifying as Lhankor Mhy, because that’s a thing Lhankor Mhy does. You can wield the spirit weapons that Waha wielded while identifying as Waha, because that’s what Waha did. You can identify as the queen of the forest (Aldrya) while reaching down into the soil, below into the underworld, to find the spirits of plants yet unborn, because that is part of being Aldrya. And so on. I don’t personally know of any traditions that combine sorcery with being a shaman. Doesn’t mean they do not exist. There are definitely sorcerous traditions that attempt to understand the spirit world, and so teach how to intellectually comprehend the sensations that come with spirit contact. The Malkioni however put this in the context of demonising the spirit world, so a different form of intellectual rigidity - the Hrestoli Furlandan school is the best known example here. Binding spirits into enchantments, which effectively is combining sorcery and spirit magic in a limited form, happens. Henotheism, I suspect, combines worship with a deep intellectual exploration of what is worshipped and how it may be understood as an abstract principle (as some forms of Hinduism do). But the loopholes have limits. A Lhankor Mhy knows some knowledge is forbidden by LM. A Kygor Litor priestess instinctively knows that spirits that are not of the darkness are hurtful and KL would not touch them. Waha’s way rejects foreign magic. Henotheism relies on a deep well of knowledge about how that particular deity relates to the abstract powers it accesses, and that does not transfer to others. Much of the Furlandan school teaches you that deeper contact with spirits is a danger you must recoil from. And so on. The experience of Illumination gives you a moment of oneness with everything. You suddenly understand not just what it is like to be everyone else (a moment of total ego dissolution - but maybe only a moment, the ego snapping back and reasserting itself may be the ‘dark side’), you understand what it is like to be other forms of magician (and other people, and other forms of being, and to be more than just one little constrained individual). You see your habits of mind as habits and restrictions, you can reach back to that moment to see the alternatives. You see the limits as just you limiting yourself to a single way of being, you see how to go beyond that now,you see how it’s all different ways to the same thing. You may not be able to explain or comprehend it fully, but you’ve had that experience. That doesn’t mean you know how to fit those pieces together well. Most of the time, you are just back to the first principle with other forms of magic. It can be like trying to learn acting and programming, different skills that simply don’t fit together well. But maybe someone who has been there before has learnt to put the pieces together better, has done the work to see the commonalities, like understanding the maths of music etc. Arkat invented sorcery useful to followers of darkness gods (and FWIW, I think Arkati trolls can learn as much sorcery as anyone, they just need to be Illuminated before mastering multiple forms of magic, just like anyone else). The Red Goddess (or, perhaps, the many Immortals she instructed and inspired) learnt how to apply their magical techniques to her Lunar powers in ways they deliberately construct as different approaches to the same inner truth. Ven Forn finds magical techniques that do not interfere with mystic work. And so on. Some aspects of various magical paths that seem to make little sense, make perfect sense to an Illuminate.

As far as the HQ rules go, it’s very true that how you arrive at a particular number is of very limited relevance as far as game play goes. But there are significant differences in terms of flexibility, both in terms of application in the moment and access to abilities (eg access to a range of different elemental powers via your Spirit or Sorcery Rune seems routine). I don’t think this is simply a rules artefact, but a representation of quite different methods. The different types of magic are intended to have significant differences in practice in not just the HQG rules, but in Glorantha. (How well the rules model what those differences actually are is a different question - AFAIK the versions of sorcery as presented in RQG and HQG currently seem radically different in some respects, unfortunately) In post-Guide Glorantha, we have (rightly) got rid of the idea that there is a correct way to approach a particular power/entity. Farewell to the concept of misapplied worship, and good riddance. But the idea that mixing methods is problematic still lingers, I think somewhat correctly but somewhat overstated in some places. I think mixing magical methodology is unusual and a bit weird, that it usually leads to some restrictions in practice, and it is, at the higher levels of practice, generally impossible without Illumination (referring here to Illumination as a moment of mystical union with the all, rather than any specific path to there). Examples of such practical restrictions (noting that all restrictions are far for the sufficiently advanced heroquester) include Lhankor Mhy sorcerers not being able to create spells/grimoires from scratch but only via retranslation, that Kygor Litor and Aldrya are restricted in their shamanic abilities, Lunars not being able to access feats, etc. Essentially, normal magicians in such traditions set off in a direction somewhere that doesn’t fit squarely in one of three traditions, but as a result always have some sort of restriction. FWIW, while of course mystic insight should be its own reward, I think it’s pragmatic value to most serious magicians is to allow mixing the major paths - shamans with sorcery, devotees with sorcery, having feats and a fetch, etc. This is normally impossible, but not too Illuminates. The smashing and rebuilding of their highly developed sense of self required obviously might make them crazy though. (and my suspicion is that at the lower levels of mixed practice, it frequently indicates that your mixed religious practices were established by someone who had the benefit of Illumination. Eg Lhankor Mhy has ready access to sorcery perhaps due to Malkioneranist religious engineering, Pavis access to limited divine magic due to Pavis having Draconic insight, etc. I dare not speculate about Urox, though! And in mystic cultures, mystics might create practical forms of magic that are not themselves mystic but are designed for such intermixing of method - and Venformism might be an example of this but.... WAY off topic)

David knows I rather disagree about this. I think the kind of very distinct bifurcation of the Waha cult in the HQG writeup (where those without the Spirit Rune have no access to the majority of Waha’s magic, and Devotees must actually give up using Waha’s spirit magic) is at best a really weird, somewhat pathological case, and a far more magically integrated cult (like Storm Bull running through to Odayla) is more common, and a much better example of how mixed traditions usually work in Glorantha.

@Jeff stated upthread why he rarely reads erratum threads. This makes it very clear why he (or someone else from Chaosium with editorial responsibility) absolutely should be reading, and acting on, erratum threads. I know Chaosium is small and very busy. But honestly the quality of copy editing on some recent products has been not good at all (particularly for problems that probably crept in post layout) and I realise updated PDFs are not always high priority, but in some cases very necessary.

I tend to think of the artwork in the Red Cow books as tending in the direction of what Orlanthi wear when it’s quite cold... lots of big cloaks etc.

It’s a theme, and there is plenty of it. Becoming a shrunken head or being reborn as a scorpion man, transforming into a broo due to evil behaviour, becoming a Babeester Gor initiate because all hope of love in your life is gone, risking killing those you love in a berserk fury because it’s the only way to fight Chaos you know, etc. But it isn’t an unavoidable core theme the way it is in the Cthulhu mythos.

The strict Lord/Priest distinction hasn’t really been canonical Glorantha since Gods of Glorantha. That was 32 years ago, folks! Rather, we have a set of standard roles - martial leader, priestly magical specialist, and shaman among them - that get mixed and matched as appropriate to the cult. Removing the distinction in general, but retaining it for certain cults, is entirely appropriate. Paris is still nominally a divine cult - it’s just their divine magic is weak and dull (City Harmony and some standard spells, mostly) as befits a city god of a small city, while they also have access to some much more interesting sorcery. Like Lhankor Mhy, they have access to both, but not every priest will have interest in the extended study to become a good sorcerer.

The Wind Children are also described in Anaxials Roster for HW. The claustrophobia didn't originate with Vikings, it dates right back to at least RQ2. It is always going to be an issue with play - I think most of them would never willingly enter an enclosed building, let alone go underground. I'd personally let them use their Air rune (which is pretty much mandatory) for use with Air spirit/Sylph charms pretty much for free, but it doesn't interfere with them joining theist cults (usually Air rune ones such as Orlanth).

No, usually they don't, and you should only give them an elemental rune if they have an obvious elemental association. Most spirits have only one or two associations strong enough to merit a rune. Most don't even have the Spirit rune. I tend to think of the universality of the Elemental Rune as representing the universality of physical embodiment for mortal beings. If it represents any grand cosmic truth, it is that all live mortal beings are connected to the physical body they live in, and the nature of our bodies is part of who we are.

I had never heard of the Chained Simple Contest variant. I strongly suspect that it, or some variant of it, will solve one of my long standing issues with RQ (which is that essentially all Extended Contest combats feel a bit samey and arbitrary).

Yes, I think Androgeus is a Green Age entity that has suffered a great deal in the gradual transition to modern times. It's gradual, though - Golden Age Androgeus was comparatively powerful and integrated compared to the current version.

Yes, to what Peter says about Vadeli. Basically, they are nihilist breakaways from the ancient West, and they are in many ways similar to the Brithini, which is a thing you should never say around Brithini. Both follow ancient caste law and are immortal as a result. The Brithini elevate that law to the basis of a rigid conservative moral code, and try to follow it as rigidly as possible in spirit as well as letter. The Vadeli treat it as simply a set of constraints to work within, and assume that everything not explicitly forbidden is permitted. Notably, their caste law says almost nothing about how you should treat those outside the caste system, so the Vadeli take this as license to enslave, torture, cheat, etc the bulk of humanity. Doesn't mean they always will, but they see only practical, not moral, reasons why they shouldn't. The castes now act more like sects perhaps, less integrated as a society than the Brithini - groups of Vadeli tend to be mostly the same caste, though they cooperate and work with each other, and you will find e.g. Red marines on Brown ships. This is probably because they lack the higher castes. All of them are cold, logical, and without any moral center. They are usually outwardly charming, but it's entirely superficial. In short, they are a race of sociopaths. The Brown are not warriors, most are traders or sailors, and do not want to lose their long lives if the can help it, so are much more likely to cheat and steal and corrupt and manipulate than use violence. Or just trade that turns out to be a bad deal. Even if they do need to fight, they often rely on magically controlled monsters, or on mercenaries. They use sorcery, and can be very good at it, but are restricted by their caste as to what sorcery they can use. Control over non-sapient beings, travel magic that can also be used for sneaky purposes, and elemental magic useful for seafaring are common choices. Most of the Umathelan cost has Brown Vadeli slums full of weird creepy merchants selling odd things, often from very far away and sometimes very old. The Red are warriors, and very violent and cruel. They also are not keen on risking their lives unnecessarily, but they are skilled, sorcerously powerful, and they fight incredibly dirty and mean and vicious and tactically smart. If your players ever end up fighting them, they should end up despising them. Like the Brown, their caste restricts what sorcery they can use, but as that means they concentrate on combat magic, that is unlikely to be seen as helpful by anyone.

I agree with Peter that the innately Chaotic nature of Fonritian society is not generally acknowledged, or was not until recently. That the more decadent elements of Fonritian society accepted Chaos was known, but seen as corrupted individuals. The tendency of Pamaltelan Chaos to appear as smaller numbers of more dangerous and more chaotic beings should not be overstated. Just as Genertela has the occasional monstrous Chaos beast like the Bat or the Hydra of the Hydra Hills or Cwim, Pamaltelan has the occasional Chaos horde of broo or nest of grue. I don't think it's likely to have much effect on the social role of Urox, that is down to other things. In particular, using Chaotic sorcery may not always make the user Chaos tainted, so while Sense Chaos is handy in general subtler skills than the Uroxi possess are needed.

FWIW, I remain fairly convinced that Belintars Moon connections are via the Right Arm islands, and those connections are strongly Blue Moon connected as the deity of tidal powers. I think the geography of the Right Arms is that a lot of it is tidal flats. I do think the sort of immortality through group consciousness that both Belintar and the Red Emperor practice is something that requires Illumination, and probably deeper mystic insight beyond that. It requires giving up attachment to the ego, which is a classic high mystic attainment, and then probably magical efforts beyond that.

Joerg, read the quote from Sandy above - Androgeus is now very conflicted about his gender, but she was not always that way.

Nasobemes. I just literally have no idea. Anything that's too overtly science fictional. I quite like the grotarons though. I have more frustrations about what isn't there, including temperate broadleaf non-deciduous Aldryami.

'You don't understand we just want to make the world better under our control. The problem is all those people who resist, they are the reason why we have to kept murdering and hurting people.'

It is very tempting to connect Androgeus to the various Pelorian hermaphrodite Gods and demons in some way - e.g. Jernotius, the Suvarian barzkarto, etc.

Wakboth got squashed by the Block and Kajabor was eaten by Arachne Solara to become time. They aren't an expression of chaos in Glorantha anymore - no worshippers, just concepts. http://www.glorantha.com/docs/kajabor/ I think of Kajabor as a Western concept, and when they say he was eaten and became time, they are on the one hand saying Kajabor was destroyed as a separate Independent Eranschula, but on the other hand in that process became confirmed as an intrinsic part of the universe. Now the universe is always broken. When Kajabor was alive, he could be fought, but now he is halted, but ever present. Everything is a bit wrong (entropy and division) and there are cracks where the brokenness can't be ignored (Chaos). Kajabor is the reluctant, despairing acceptance that the Fifth Action made our world. And of course he is just a concept. Personalising a concept to be a being is an Error, even more than it would be for a benign concept like Storm. Wakboth is a bit more complex. Wakboth as the great God of Chaos is the ultimate foe is a theist concept probably. But the Brithini understood moral evil and entropy as the same power manifesting in different ways (it's all just the manifestation of Error, which became the Devil). So didn't even think of Kajabor of having separate existence, and yet the God Learners synthesized this with Theyalan myth to treat them as two beings. I think most Westerners not corrupted by God Learnerism, probably most non-Theyalans, think the idea that moral evil was defeated by a bovine squashing it with a big rock to be a laughably confused typical bit of theist nonsense, displaying the level of sophisticated understanding you would expect of... well, cattle. Land of course they are expressed in Glorantha. By Malkions sacrifice etc they were smashed as independent, rebellious, Eranschula. And thus the world was saved. But they still exist as principles which exist in the world, and sorcerers who are wicked enough to directly access the Chaos rune (or even indirectly, as Vadeli are assumed to do essentially by their every magical act) can access that power. (FWIW, for Chaotic sorcery, rather than demonology per se (which can just be literally demonized paganism), I generally go to the idea of the qlippoth applied to the Runes - the broken inverted reverse of the runes. )

Even if you are granted immunity, you are a carrier. It's kind like saying a Ponzi scheme isn't bad, because it works for those inside the scheme. Or waging aggressive continual war on your neighbors isn't bad, as long as you treat them nicely if they surrender. Pretty nihilist, really. but hey, maybe you are right. There are certainly people in Glorantha who claim you can interact with Malia in non-Chaotic ways. Some of them might even be right. But the majority of her worshippers (especially broo) accept immunity in the spirit of 'I'm alright, so who cares if you die hideously?'

Chaos includes both moral evil (Wakboth) and the intrinsic brokenness of the universe (Kajabor). The former is a result of nihilism, the latter shows nihilism is justified because we live in a world without moral law. But it's circular. Without the chaos cults, and the moral wickedness of eg the Unholy Trio, the non-sentient forms of chaos like gorp etc might have stayed outside the world. The Void or the Pre-Dark are scary but part of the metaphysics of creation - it's when Chaos intrudes into creation, sentient or not, that it becomes dangerous, and that may not be something that happens without magic that makes it so. Without Pocharngo, would there be gorp at all?

Chaos is nihilist, basically. Chaotic beings do awful things for two reasons 1) they gain power or pleasure or other perceived advantage to themselves by doing so and/or 2) why not? Chaos rejects all law and morality. It is, itself, not just a rejection of law and morality as we know it, but natural law. Chaos says, in a world steeped in and sustained by magic, magic that depends on, and is controlled by, subjective understanding, every law and moral principle we know may be meaningless. Of course, many chaotic beings don't understand it at that intellectual level. Most of them just know that something is wrong inside and they hate everything. An Illuminated chaotic being knows that they aren't wrong, just different, and they may not hate everything. But they still have a somewhat nihilist core worldview, or at least, know (at a deep, innate level) that there are no objective laws and morals. Some over come this by finding a moral centre based in a subjective, usually carefully reasoned, understanding of the universe , and only commit atrocities if if is considered absolutely necessary (most Arkati or Darudists, etc), some do not and find no reason not to commit atrocities if there is some perceived value in it to them. Sometimes they never find any sort of centre and basically go mad. Which exact category the Lunars, or any given illuminate for that matter, falls into is a matter of debate.